AM vs Tau tactics? help?

[Chefzilla]

Coffee, thanks for the heads up. It all seemed a bit fishy to me but I did have a Hellhammer in the game.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Indeed. If in doubt, crush it under your mighty treads. :P

[fabambina]

well, i played him again. 

he brought:

 

ethereal

11 fire warriors

     in a devilfish

 

10 fire warriors 

 

2 XV8 crisis suits

 

5 pathfinders with markerlights

 

 

that's the best i can remember, he gave me a list, but it was different and he had no updated one. i went with it because what the hell, i wanted to play.

 

i had PCS

20 man blob w/commisar

3 armored sentinels with autocannon

3 autocannon hws

5 skitarii rangers w/2 arquebuses

 

 

so, my deployment was not good. we played cityfight on a 4x4, i got unlucky with the table quarter i had, and in hindsight i should have deployed as far away as possible from his army to take advantage of my autocannon's range. any advice on this, basics i know, would be appreciated.

 

he won first move.

 

he used the ethereal to give his one unit of fire warriors 20 pulse shots that did 11 wounds and he said i had no save due to AP and ignores cover due to his pathfinders markerlighting me, wiped my HWS autocannons. then his crisis suits immobilized one of my sentinels.

 

i shot back as best i could and moved out for one of the tactical objectives near me and got it. he made all his saves except my skitarii immobilized his devilfish and got it down to 1 wound.

 

he dismbarked, then killed my skitarii with another 20 shots from ethereal boost to pulse. he shot up my blob a bit.

 

i shot up one of his fire warrior units to half size, and killed one of the drones he had released from the devilfish.

 

he then laid into my blob with ignores cover markerlight and ethereal bonus to pulse and wiped it down to 6 guys. took out my warlord.

 

at that point all i had left was a 6 man blob, one PCS and the sentinel squad, down one wound. he had only lost one drone and 5 fire warriors along with an immobilized transport. so, i felt i could not win, it was late, and i conceded.

 

what could i have done better? what were my mistakes? 

[WarriorFish]

Target the marker lights first, remove that and life will be a lot easier. Then send the ethereal home in matchboxes. Without his fancy tricks you can leverage your advantages and you will find the battle much easier - target priority is essential.

 

I don't like the phrasing of "he said X", it makes it sound like you didn't know what was going on. Though he was surely employing the rules correctly you shouldn't just accept it, ask for an explanation and to see the rules if necessary. How can you expect to defeat your opponent if you do not understand what he is capable of after all? Plus I find demonstrating the willingness to stop and check helps keep some people more honest too so it's always worth doing.

[CommissarZac]

Agreed if he doesn't want to show you the rules then obviously something is up.  I'm still curious about the Combat patrol rules, since i think his list is definatly stacked against you.  Not to mention he went outside his list, this guy has all the makings of a bad gamer.  Top priority should be the markerlights and the etherial like Lord Commissar Warriorfish said.  Consider ratling snipers to focus on the etherial.  I still say grind them under a Leman Russ but without knowing the exact rules for your Combat Patrol rules I shall reserve judgement.  

[fabambina]

ok, please forgive me if this is too much info. my gaming group has 6 full time members. we also have about ten part timers. not everyone can field more than 400-500 pts of a well-rounded army list, so we looked for a game that any one of us could play and still be competitive. many of our part-timers, especially, are FAAC players, and don't want the added pressure of a WAAC player crafting cheeses lists and spam, or using their more extensive collection to win games. we wanted a game with more of a "small ball" feel. so, we looked at Adepticon combat patrol rules, and old 4th edition combat patrol rules, and settled on a hybrid that goes like this:

 

1-3 troops

0-1 HQ

0-1 Elite

0-1 Fast Attack

0-1 Heavy Support

1 ally unit (battle brothers only)

 

No unit of more than 2 wounds

No psyker of mastery level more than 1

No saves greater than 3+

No flyers

No Forgeworld units

No special characters

Combined AV of vehicles no more than 33

played on a 4x4 board

 

we've played a dozen or more games like this, and usually they lead to a very balanced, troop-centric game. 

 

as for his gamesmanship, the guy i played is pretty trustworthy. i have always found his rules, when i looked them up, to be honest. two problems last night were my physical exhaustion, which led me to think less and not read up on the rules (his codex) like i usually do, and the presence of our WAAC player, who also plays Tau and is a little intimidating and, i don't wanna say pushy, but forceful in his interpretations of the rules and does not like this combat patrol because it is just what he hates, restrictions on cheese and spam. so, rather than argue with him i just have a tendency to move along when he's around and not be more careful. it causes me to make mistakes and be less cautious. that's my personal problem, and another story.

 

i realize now, after a good night's sleep, that i should have been more cautious about terrain placement and deployment, in order to maximize my advantage of longer firepower. also, given his list, i might have gone with a wyvern instead of the skitarii, in order to go after the pathfinders at range. the rangers are excellent anti-vehicle troops, especially with the transuranic arquebus, but that wasn't really the problem with the tau as it is sometimes with, say, CSM, where a rhino can run around with a unit of chosen and mess up your day.

 

so, i would like any and all advice you good people may impart upon me. and i thank you.

[CyderPirate]

As the others have said, hit his markerlights first. Once they're taken out of the picture, you actually get your cover saves, and will be able to "first rank fire, second rank fire" the leftovers into oblivion.

 

Outflanking scout sentinels with heavy flamers, a good ol fashion wyvern or giving your heavy weapons squad the re-roll successful cover saves order should help clear them out early on. A hellhound would do the trick as well, but I think they might be over the AV allowance.

[fabambina]

 A hellhound would do the trick as well, but I think they might be over the AV allowance.

 

they are indeed. you would go with scout sentinels and heavy flamers over autocannons?

[WarriorFish]

Scout Sentinels with flamers would be nasty, but you might not be able to get into range against all their S5 shooting. Armoured Sentinels would be better, that or spending the points on even more troops!

[march10k]

A veteran squad with an autocannon, forward sentries, and a chimera is 145 points...put a hull heavy flamer on the chimmy, and shove it in his face while the autocannon supports from 3++ ruins...four of those for 580 points...in a 1000 point game, that's 40 BS4 men with a 3 up save and four AV12 vehicles, leaving 420 points for HQ and support...

[MithrilForge]

A veteran squad with an autocannon, forward sentries, and a chimera is 145 points...put a hull heavy flamer on the chimmy, and shove it in his face while the autocannon supports from 3++ ruins...four of those for 580 points...in a 1000 point game, that's 40 BS4 men with a 3 up save and four AV12 vehicles, leaving 420 points for HQ and support...

Ummm. March10k, his group only plays 500pt games see his post above

@fabambina - Apart from the gaming aspect of troop choice etc that takes a little time to learn but once you get stung by some armies you start to wise up quickly and the helpful posts here go a long way to helping that too, Letting people intimidate you is another thing though, i've been around gaming groups and seen these types,their nice guys generally but flip the coin and their game face seems like the school yard bully...you have as much right to go at your pace as you feel comfortable(except at a tournament where you might be thought to be stalling ) having confidence in yourself and knowledge of the game helps negate these people's pushiness...you have the capacity to be as good as them,remember that.

Learn the game inside out,try and borrow peoples codexes to learn their armies(knowledge is power) get great toips from this awesome site and become like a brick wall to the "Bad" Gamers, they wont be able to break you then

good luck with your gaming,

cheers Mithril

p.s i see you took rangers with transauranic arq"s use them well and they can get those markerlight thorns as well 60" range is useful....

[WarriorFish]

march's suggestion is still good as the theme is taking Guard's strengths to the extreme so if it could be adapted to 500pts...

 

Being limited to 500pts is a bit of an issue, at lower points the "tax" on getting the FOC sorted is punitive on Guard as it forces your army construction. Fortunately the changes to the FOC here give you some leeway so I'd take full advantage of that - your opponents surely are. I'd start with a Platoon to give you vital numbers and then look at augmenting them as best you can. Perhaps a Wyvern for your HS slot to skulk around and reduce the blue xenos to blue chunks? As I said before Armoured Sentinels would be better as Scout ones, perhaps take a cheap one with a flamer to stalk up to them and force them to deal with before it roasts them into blue burgers?

 

I think that going infantry horde would be worth a go too. Maybe a cheap mortar squad to harass and annoy, then either sit happy and throw long range fire or build the list to surge forward and drown them in lasgun and bayonet!

[march10k]

we've got a new player in our group, and he is using tau. i've never faced them before, but i learned one thing: go for the markerlights first.

we play mostly 500-1000 points around here, and at lower points we play combat patrol rules. there seem to be very few tacticas for AM vs tau. i can't even search these forums, because tau is a 3 lettered word and this forum's search utility requires 4 letters or more.

can anyone help me out? i know very little about this seemingly OP army. i mean, they were tough to beat.

Original post highlighted for your convenience

[CoffeeGrunt]

Ethereals only grant extra shots within half range, basically a super Rapid Fire. Hang back and whither down the squad with light fire, Fire Warriors are very fragile.

[CyderPirate]

Ethereals only grant extra shots within half range, basically a super Rapid Fire. Hang back and whither down the squad with light fire, Fire Warriors are very fragile.

 

Do we outshoot them at 24" with FRFSRF then? Not super familiar with the Tau-dex.

 

On the sentinel front, I suggested the lighter one over the armoured version so it could outflank and hit 'em where it hurts without having to take too much fire strolling across the field. The armoured ones are still awesome, but for clearing out pathfinders (and any other squishy thing), heavy flamers appearing in close proximity is definitely brown-trousers time!

[fabambina]

On the sentinel front, I suggested the lighter one over the armoured version so it could outflank and hit 'em where it hurts without having to take too much fire strolling across the field. The armoured ones are still awesome, but for clearing out pathfinders (and any other squishy thing), heavy flamers appearing in close proximity is definitely brown-trousers time!

 

yes, i didn't think about using scout sentinels with flamers to get the pathfinders.

 

but does that trump armoured ones with autocannons to hammer the devilfish?

 

also, both times i have played him he has gone first. how much do i have to worry that the scouts will be deployed in a vulnerable position in order to be close to the pathfinders?

[WarriorFish]

The problem with outflanking would be if they came on to a side the enemy wasn't, the short range of the flamers could mean they never get to use them. When outflanking I prefer long range weapons to avoid this, so could be better to take autocannons for slapping side and rear armour?

[fabambina]

The problem with outflanking would be if they came on to a side the enemy wasn't, the short range of the flamers could mean they never get to use them. When outflanking I prefer long range weapons to avoid this, so could be better to take autocannons for slapping side and rear armour?

that's my fear. i'm leaning towards armoured sentinels with autocannons for the range for just that occasion.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, a friend of mine that has been playing my tau, has decided he's going to build a Tau army at some point in the near future. I built him a list that would take advantage of the tactics and units he wants to use. 

 

It's heavy on missilesides, and markerlights. It also happens to be a list similar to one that another friend of mine uses, and never gets to play because of how nasty it is. Am I right in assuming that eliminating the marker lights is the proper course of action to reduce the effectiveness of the missilesides? Should I focus on the pathfinders and Missilesides first? Or is there something else I should do. My friend wants to use stealthsuits and pathfinders to provide the markerlights and light anti armor punch. 

[fabambina]

i'll tell you this, those pathfinders must die. first. must. die.

 

it's a win-win for tau, because that one unit sponges up the attacks in the first round or two, allowing the player to move around with his other units pretty freely.

 

can't wait for their rumored new codex. 

[march10k]

~shrug~  it really depends on your list.  If you're giving him nothing but AV12 and AV14 targets, there's not a whole lot those markerlights can be used for.  They're really best for turning 3+ cover into dead forward sentries.  I don't hesitate to field forward sentries against tau, but I put them at long range where my autocannon gets to shoot with impunity, and then shove demolishers in his face to keep him from closing the range.  I ignore pathfinders when I play against tau, at least until the fire warriors are dead and my AP4 shooting has nothing better to do.

 

Personally, the best killer of fire warriors is a nova cannon, but if you're playing in a "you can field 2+ armor, but not AV14" format, you deserve to lose, that's about as unfair as it gets. No Russes, no broadsides, iridium, etc.  That should be non-negotiable.  

[CommissarZac]

Agreed if you find your self in a fair fight you're doing something wrong LOL

[CoffeeGrunt]

The anti-AV14 meta pretty much hands the game to Tau - they really have issues reliably getting close enough to get Melta in range, and Melta is their only real option for dealing with that. They can field plenty of Battlesuits that pack a mean, mobile punch with decent armour, so this meta you have feels pretty biased.

 

Without Russes, your only options are AV12, the kind of thing Broadsides with Missile Mittens were born to massacre. With those out of the way, picking apart your Infantry will happen in no time at all.

 

Again, doesn't seem fair to neuter one army's playstyle without affecting others'. Tau and Eldar both utterly lack AV14 vehicles, and they're hardly armies that need the competition handicapped in order to have a fair fight, are they?

[fabambina]

i hear all your points about the combat patrol rules, but i think maybe you are all ignoring the reasons why we play with them. between the two astra militarum players we have, including myself, our group has only one leman russ!

 

this is about playing smaller point games, and "small ball" style gameplay. it is in the spirit of a troop-style game, with supporting vehicles and heavies, but focused on a patrol of mostly troop units.

 

it's about a game style that doesn't favor players with deep pockets and a large number of minis, at the expense of a more casual gamer who might only have 500 points of army.

 

it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is a valid play style, and one we have used quite often. about half of our games, and we play 3-7 or so as a group per week, are played under these rules.

 

i appreciate your viewpoint, but we are gonna go forward with these anyway. two of our regular players only have the dark vengeance playset that they split between them! they have to borrow things like a rhino just to play!

 

as far as this play style being unfair to AM, boy i wish you guys were in my club! our WAAC player, who goes to one or two tournaments a month and plays necrons, tau, GK, inquisition, and SM, complains all the time that this game style is biased TOWARDS the AM and Orks and often refuses to play it!

 

and one of our DE players complains all the time that regular 40k is biased towards SM, tau, and eldar.

 

so, really, i got over that line of thinking. you can overcome any perceived bias with sound tactics and a good army list. both of which i have learned more about from you gentlemen here. and i thank you.

 

the things i have taken away so far are:

 

keep your distance as long as possible and long range attack 

 

outflank/infiltrate/deep strike/scout to get flamers on his pathfinders

 

am i forgetting or missing anything?

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

 

this is about playing smaller point games, and "small ball" style gameplay. it is in the spirit of a troop-style game, with supporting vehicles and heavies, but focused on a patrol of mostly troop units.

 

...And massive Battlesuits wielding anti-tank weaponry with the highest class of armoured protection? I'd recommend Heralds of Ruin Kill Team as a possible alternative, though that ruleset is very minimal on vehicles and deliberately limits tough units and weapons spam.

 

The other problem is that Tau are designed to be reactive. You have to outplay them in the moment, as out-planning them is near-impossible. They have the mobility and range to put fire down on things, with decent survivability to weather the return if they don't simply evade it. Were your boards bigger, I'd suggest Basilisks, but sadly they won't work here. Lascannons hidden in Guardsman blobs will put the fear of the Emperor into those Broadsides, as you'll outrange and outgun them. Add a Company Command Squad to shout Fire On My Target at them until the Xenos are dead, which will be very quickly if you do it right.

 

Bullgryns could also be quite successful, as if he's list-tailoring against you, he'll likely have forsaken low-AP weaponry, and Tau lack for S10 and AP3 fire quite noticeably. These guys with a Priest could be a serious problem for any unit they catch, and T5 W3 3+Sv is pretty solid. I personally field at least four, with a Power Maul on the Bone'ead, a Priest, and even a Psyker with Biomancy. Getting Endurance off on them will make them horrific to deal with, and most of the other Biomancy powers are still pretty decent. Tau won't out-Psyker you either, thankfully. Force weapons will end those pesky Crisis Suits nice and quick, especially if you get War Hymns off so you can re-roll to Wound.

 

However, this unit will be prohibitively expensive at so low a points value, so they'll be outmaneuvered and unsupported.

 

Maybe just mass Infantry blobs with Lascannons buried in them to take down the suits? A couple of fast, threatening outriders could help distract from them, I think Outflanking Scout Sentinels with Flamers should do it, or maybe a Wyvern hidden at the back to thin out those Pathfinders.