gun slinger: real sharp shooter shooting super sharp shots

[thebymster]

Knee jerk reaction to something I just noticed on p51 of dex : "may replace.... With ONE of the following"

Does that mean we can't have Gun Slinger Sgt anymore?

[Quixus]

You removed the important part

A model may replace its bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the following

You can read this in two ways, but one of the readings makes no sense in the context of the game: 1) A model may replace its bolt pistol with one of the following and/or a Melee weapon with one of the following.

 

2) A model may replace its both bolt pistol and Melee weapon with one of the following or it may replace only one of its bolt pistol and Melee weapon with one of the following

 

Number one makes sense, number two does not. Why would anyone remove two weapons to get one better weapon when he can also remove only one?

 

Further proof that number one is the right one is

The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists

One of the options this rule allows is to take items (plural) from only one list. So reading number 2 of the above sentence would cause a contradiction.

[sockwithaticket]

It's pretty straight forward, it's basically saying you can make one weapon change or two and that each weapon change can only be for one item. So if you choose to make two weapon changes and each change is for, say, an Infernus Pistol you can still have a gunslinger sergeant.

[thebymster]

Thank you I can now explain that clearly to any one!

[Charlo]

The whole "swap one thing" sentence they used for our codex is just HORRIFIC in terms of wording. It has caused countless internet arguments and probably wasn't proof read by an outsider or someone with a different way of thinking.

 

But yes we can take two pistols isn't it great :D

[Lucumon]

It has caused countless internet arguments...

 Told you =P

[Venemox]

If another bolt pistol were an option, then the gunslinger Sarge might be a good idea.  As it is now, special pistols are simply too expensive to justify on a one wound model with a  4+ LOS.

[Lucumon]

If another bolt pistol were an option, then the gunslinger Sarge might be a good idea.  As it is now, special pistols are simply too expensive to justify on a one wound model with a  4+ LOS.

False.  On the drop, you can get 3 shots for 115 pts or 4 shots for 135 pts.  Why would you want 38 pts per melta shot when you can get 33 pts per melta shot? This translates to a 78% chance of at least 1 pen on an AP13 v an 86% chance of at least 1 pen.

[thebymster]

Hmmmm I like the look of it like that!

Harder to justify is Vet Sgt with 2 L Claws.... At I5 it looks great, but it's expensive ain't it? And on flesh tearers formation / Detatchment (whatevs) at I4, it dont seem worth it. What you reckon?

[Venemox]

 

If another bolt pistol were an option, then the gunslinger Sarge might be a good idea.  As it is now, special pistols are simply too expensive to justify on a one wound model with a  4+ LOS.

False.  On the drop, you can get 3 shots for 115 pts or 4 shots for 135 pts.  Why would you want 38 pts per melta shot when you can get 33 pts per melta shot? This translates to a 78% chance of at least 1 pen on an AP13 v an 86% chance of at least 1 pen.

 

I didn't know opinions on price could be 'False'...  In that configuration (1 meltagun, 1 multi-melta, and 2 Inferno pistols, 5 marines with Drop Pod) you're getting 4 shots on the drop, but 1 one of them is a snap shot, and 2 have 3 inch melta ranges.  That puts your (now) 29 point Seargent front and center for the return fire, in the best case drop placement scenario.

 

As far as suicide melta goes, that configuration probably does it cheaper than anything else we have.  86% (This is high, don't forget to calculate the 1/6 chance of hitting with the Multi-melta vs normal BS) chance of success to kill a single tank, in exchange fro losing one of our troops in the following enemy player turn.  Only at the cost of a Sanguinary Guard per melta shot.

 

Assuming your enemy fields a tank, AND that tank has no other protection (cover, smoke, invulnerable, shields, etc.), AND they leave you room to place a drop pod with a clear line of fire not longer than 3 inches (Sanguinius forbid that line be longer than 6 inches), etc, etc etc.

 

Everything said and done, I still think special pistols on Tactical Squad Sergeants are far too expensive (by at least a factor of 2, probably 3) for what they deliver.  More efficient or durable delivery mechanisms for all desired results exist elsewhere in our codex.

[lfhoule]

 

 

If another bolt pistol were an option, then the gunslinger Sarge might be a good idea.  As it is now, special pistols are simply too expensive to justify on a one wound model with a  4+ LOS.

False.  On the drop, you can get 3 shots for 115 pts or 4 shots for 135 pts.  Why would you want 38 pts per melta shot when you can get 33 pts per melta shot? This translates to a 78% chance of at least 1 pen on an AP13 v an 86% chance of at least 1 pen.

 

I didn't know opinions on price could be 'False'...  In that configuration (1 meltagun, 1 multi-melta, and 2 Inferno pistols, 5 marines with Drop Pod) you're getting 4 shots on the drop, but 1 one of them is a snap shot, and 2 have 3 inch melta ranges.  That puts your (now) 29 point Seargent front and center for the return fire, in the best case drop placement scenario.

 

As far as suicide melta goes, that configuration probably does it cheaper than anything else we have.  86% (This is high, don't forget to calculate the 1/6 chance of hitting with the Multi-melta vs normal BS) chance of success to kill a single tank, in exchange fro losing one of our troops in the following enemy player turn.  Only at the cost of a Sanguinary Guard per melta shot.

 

Assuming your enemy fields a tank, AND that tank has no other protection (cover, smoke, invulnerable, shields, etc.), AND they leave you room to place a drop pod with a clear line of fire not longer than 3 inches (Sanguinius forbid that line be longer than 6 inches), etc, etc etc.

 

Everything said and done, I still think special pistols on Tactical Squad Sergeants are far too expensive (by at least a factor of 2, probably 3) for what they deliver.  More efficient or durable delivery mechanisms for all desired results exist elsewhere in our codex.

 

 

     I will say that for tactical sergeants, I will agree that it is too expensive to double up on the special pistols, and if you want to gunsling with those sergeants, then 1 special with a bolt pistol is doable. You have issues with the difference in range between hand flamers (not by much), or infernos (a bit more) compared to bolt pistols, but that's workable.

    However, over the course of the thread, the type of squad being talked about got mixed up along the way. Assault squads can take 2 special weapons at 5 men, and in that case, then gunslinging 2 special pistols on the sergeant would make sense, depending on what you want dead no matter the cost in points.

    All in all, it's a matter of choice and or need. 

[Venemox]

Hand Flamers do benefit from Wall of Death, and I have thought about modelling a couple for the times I need a few points spent to compliment the Flamer and Heavy Flamer already in the Tac squad.  However, that's more from a spare parts, thematic,  and easy modelling stand point.  Almost specifically for very low point games, with little to no high AV vehicle presence.

[Lucumon]

 

I didn't know opinions on price could be 'False'...  

 

I didn't know opinions were true 100% of the time.... the statement that it is false that your opinion happens all the time is spot on. Obviously some of us can justify the extra 15 points.

 

 

the 1/6 chance of hitting with the Multi-melta vs normal BS

Baye's Law disagrees with you; how does a lower chance of a hit on something immaterial to the question of the extra pistol cost matter? Wouldn't the 2 pistols be a-ok on an assault squad where you can get 2 melta shots off? If you are going suicide a squad... why wouldn't you get in as much as possible (unless you have the intent for those 15 points somewhere else...)

 

 

 

Only at the cost of a Sanguinary Guard per melta shot.

Depending on what your intent it, I'd say that the risk is worth the destruction of a big thing on their end.  If I am going to drop a 5 man squad in front of the enemy, I am probably not assuming it will survive.

[Venemox]

Baye's Theorem is exactly why chance to hit on one of the shots matters.  The event we wish to predict the probability of is reliant on a condition of a preceding event.  In this case, the result of 'at least one pen on AV 13' is dependent on the probability that we need roll to pen at all.  If you weren't controlling for Ballistic Skill in your calculations, then the resultant comparison of 77% and 86% were already misleading.

 

The cost comparison was to show where the points lie in our available spectrum, given the intended suicide of the squad and its transport.

[CaptainHelion]

I'm still not sure where the multimelta is coming from in that squad.

[Leonaides]

Venemox is talking about a tactical squad, presumably combat-squaded with heavy and special and serg in 1 half. Most others are talking about a 5-man assault squad.

[thebymster]

Well, sometimes I play vs castled up tanks, sometimes vs drop pod assault and sometimes vs lots of big bugs. I have tried Tac squads and really don't get on with them. So, personally, I'm just getting into meltacide and plasicide squads on the flesh tearers vibe.... Im finding it hard to get out of mourning for last dex. I'm currently chopping off jump packs from jump spam and magging on "normal" back packs.

I tried my first meltacide squad last battle and they did so much better than fragioso in pod or vindicare! But it's all situational!

[frozenjordan]

A great reason not to take inferno Pistols is:

 

• Cost

• Needing to be within 3" on the drop to get your double pen rolls. (Easier done with a drop pod but still not that easy).

[Cronhour]

Packs with podded assault is my bread and butter they do a great job of first blooding and distracting people from my packing elites running up the table. If you ignore a squad of 4 melta shots they can do some real damage to infantry after popping a tank, I like to line up my guys to snipe out characters with their melta, nothing like forcing LoS and invuns versus 4 I'd attacks at ap1.

[CastellanDeMolay]

A great reason not to take inferno Pistols is:

 

• Cost

• Needing to be within 3" on the drop to get your double pen rolls. (Easier done with a drop pod but still not that easy).

I assembled my Death Company and Assault Squad during 5th, so my reasoning is less relevant now than it was, but the idea was that at S8 AP1, they could threaten anything that I was in range to charge. Even AV14 can be glanced up to 6 inches away. Monstrous creatures and characters without Eternal Warrior would also have plenty to fear, and they didn't get hot. 

Nowadays the above rationale isn't entirely relevant, but some of it, like the AP and Strength values still make them useful against a range of targets, and if you can get them within 3" they are devastating to armour. 

 

The cost is BS (not Ballistic Skill, the other one) though. They really should be 10 points (along with Hand Flamers and Plasma Pistols too) since they lost half the range of a Meltagun in order to gain Pistol status. That said, I use them at three Meltabombs a pop without complaining, but I'd be a lot happier about it if they did get a points reduction or a range upgrade.