Using an Interceptor Squad in 1,000 pts

[Gentlemanloser]

Jeff you're mis represneting that statement about Deep Strike Reserves.

 

Arriving form Reserves, via Deep Strike (as opposed to Outflanking, or Zooming Fliers) is *often* called Deep Strike Reserves.

 

Using the rules for Deep Strike (Scatter / Mishaps) is not the same as entering play from Reserves via Deep Strike (or Deep Strike Reserves).

 

Unless you want to rule that GoI can *only* be used on units with the Deep Strike Rule that *did not* start on board.

 

Your interpretation is wrong. Sorry.

 

 

 

As to GoI Centurions, we both know that is perfectly legal.

 

What allows you to ignore the first sentence of the Deep Strike rule?

 

Nothing.

 

 

 

 This means a NSF unit that Deep Strike via GoI triggers the run-shoot/shoot-run benefit from Rites, per the language found in the Deep Strike USR.

 

No no no.

 

That's totally broken.  And not RAW at all.

[jeffersonian000]

So you are telling me that Gate of Infinity does not work? Please explain.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

GoI works fine.

 

In no way does it put units into Reserves, then Deploys them though.

 

What it does, is uses the same mechanics that Deep Strike uses, to represent its movement across the board.

 

Edit: This might result in the unit being mishapped *into* reserves though.

 

But then you follow *all* the normal reserves rules, like rolling for them next turn, and sadly if it's a unit without the Deep Strike rule, they're foot slogging it back on from a board edge.

[IndigoJack]

They actually go in to ongoing reserves, so no need to roll, they just show up next turn

[Captain Coolpants]

Well ongoing reserves turn up on your table edge don't they? So regardless of having the deepstrike rules you gotta footslog yes? Because ongoing reserves makes no mention of deepstriking, just deploying from your table edge.

[Bionicman]

Can someone split that rule discussion from the rest of the thread? It is really annoying to see it getting hijacked by just another GOI / DS / teleport homer argument -.-

[Prot]

Okay back on topic; I'm seeing from a few comments that the way I'm trying to go is cheap, hammer, and I'm thinking -fast- moving towards heavy armour.

 

The left over points I can scrounge in my lists are going towards Flachions just in case I can rip into something along the way. A 5pt incinerator seems like a no brainer.

 

The nice thing with the formation is I'm not forced into going multi termies, or strike squad so I can invest a little more into these guys.

 

The thing is I weigh the points of going with Strike squad with Rhino vs. Interceptors and for the 'extra body' in the Strike squad, I just can't seem to get my head around why anybody would rather take a Strike force.

[jeffersonian000]

Can someone split that rule discussion from the rest of the thread? It is really annoying to see it getting hijacked by just another GOI / DS / teleport homer argument -.-

What do you mean by "yet another"? Pretty sure this is fairly new ground we're tearing up. And we got on to this topic when I mentioned putting Teleport Homers on my Interceptors to aid GoI. When questioned on why I thought the Teleport Homer worked with GoI, I pointed out that per RAW, Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are the exact same thing, allowing units that Deep Strike to trigger effects requiring an arrival from Deep Strike Reserves.

 

GML, like many others, has a hang up on how GW uses words, such as Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. He seems to think the word Reserve is a defined game term, and not a descriptor. I'm stating that GW uses descriptors, not terms. If GW used Terms, then our Interceptors when be awesome versus units arriving from Reserves, while our Brotherhood Formation would be unplayable. Thankfully, this is not the case.

 

To answer my own question posed to GML, GoI goes as follows:

 

After successful cast, remove the unit from the table, and immediately return the units using the rules for Deep Strike (also known as Deep Strike Reserves). Place a marker model anywhere on the table per the Deep Strike rules (scatter, rings, mishap, etc.). Because the models are removed from the table before being returned via Deep Strike, the first clause of Deep Strike is met: place the unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The second clause is met by the immediate return, which bypasses rolling to arrive as well as the turn sequence restriction.

 

This means that not only does a GoI arriving unit benefit from a GKIS toting Teleport Homer, the unit can run-shoot/shoot-run per Rites if the unit is part of an NSF. That is RAW, and it explains why we pay a premium for an otherwise inferior Locator Beacon.

 

SJ

[Zhukov]

I play against Dark Eldar fairly regularly. I personally can see overloading on dreadknights as being a real handicap against a 36" poison army.

 

I know why trying to get my 'elite' style Dark Angels/ Deathwing working it was quite painful as even with T5 everything was still getting wounded on a 4+ or better. I can't imagine what that would feel like with 3 x 225 pt models.

Dark Eldar would be one of harder matchups yes, then again it's 1000 points. Not taking 3 Dreadknights wont make it any better though, on the contrary; While they have a 48" range max, you actually have a slightly higher range with the Shunt move (30 + 12 + ~8 for the heavy incinerator). So technicly you should be able to kill 3 units of them by alphastriking. They better kill all your Dreadknights then in their following turn, or you simply kill more units. Will you beat 3 Ravagers and 6 Venoms? Maybe not, but that army autoloses to 3 Wave Serpents lol. It's 1000 points mate, it's not exactly balanced now is it?

[Prot]

No, not balanced, but that isn't part of the equation in this setting.

 

I was trying to recall that game. I counted... I think it was 52 poison shots in turn 1 at 1K.

 

I'm thinking if I face this guy again, and I don't have turn 1, I may have to put both DK's in reserve. (I only own 2) and I need something for objectives for Maelstrom (the campaign is one game of each).

 

So about 'killing' a squad a turn it doesn't quite happe because he's got them hiding in AV10 boats. The little boats shoot, the pointy eared buggers shoot, and I think they're fast skimmers. The tables at 1K are 4x4 instead of 4x6 so I can honestly say if I don't have first turn, I don't think I can hide from about 90% of his poison.

 

It's a real problem no doubt.... I never really faced DE in 7th until now and that army wide poison (not too mention he's wanting to roll nightfight all the time) is a real pain.

[jeffersonian000]

Fun thing to do with Incinerators: Shunt to an open topped DE transport, and set it and its passengers on fire!

 

Poison weapons are less harmful versus our T4 models than our T6 models, making Interceptors a value added unit when facing Xenos.

 

SJ

[thade]

Last I checked, Interceptor Knights - though valiant and skilled - lack the ability to cast Gate of Infinity, so they don't need to worry about whether it's affected by a Teleport Homer or not. <3 If you want to talk about everybody's favorite Grey Area rule from 5th Ed. (well, possibly superseded by gaming Power of the Machine Spirit in 5th) please create a new thread; I recommend it go in the Official Rules board for proper exposure.

 

Let's stick to talking about Interceptors in this thread about Interceptors please.

 

++ EDIT. Color formatting. -t ++

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dark Eldar brick their pants seeing Dreadknights turn up. You have a high threat range, and they HAVE to shoot them with AP2 (after you've already alpha-striked with heavy psycannon and heavy incinerator). Which draws a lot of fire off your Terminators (especially if you turned on 'Sanctuary' prior to Shunting up). His massed poison doesn't threaten Terminators at all, anymore than massed bolter fire does. 

[IndigoJack]

You've apparently never list terminators to mass bolter fire

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I lose Terminators to failed armour saves all the time lol. Doesn't mean I equate my terrible save rolling with how things normally go. I have cursed dice :(

 

Statistically, you need to cause 6 wounds for a Terminator to die. At that point, you've probably absorbed something like half the enemy's firepower, on a single squad. Same for DK's, I've had them tank entire armies shooting and still keep going. 2+ armour is legit. 

[IndigoJack]

Never tell me the odds! But seriously, most gaming dice actually roll ones more than any other number (I've seen articles that report is a high as 20%). Ones happen, and anyone that's played an any with mass 2+ saves will tell you that it happens more often than they'd like. Is be wary of anything that wounds on a 4+, particularly if an opponent can spam it.

[Captain Coolpants]

How? Dodgy dice?

 

Because precision gambling dice are crazy expensive.

[Gentlemanloser]

Let's stick to talking about Interceptors in this thread about Interceptors please.

 

Sorry Thade, but this *was* a question about Interceptors.  A potential use for them.  Much like using Scouts.

 

If TH don't work with GoI then this potential use of Interceptors (providing a Shunt move in the Movement Phase to guide a GoI in the Psychic Phase without Scatter) *not working* is a big deal to this thread.

 

You can't say there's a great use for them (and a First turn Shunt to guide a GoI would be an *awesome* use), if that use simply doesn't work.

 

Stopping disucssion of that really stops meaningful discussion about thier use.

 

 

 

Because the models are removed from the table before being returned via Deep Strike, the first clause of Deep Strike is met: place the unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The second clause is met by the immediate return, which bypasses rolling to arrive as well as the turn sequence restriction.

 

And this is still illegal by your ruling, as the unit doesn't have the Deep Strike rule.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd just like to point out the utter uselessness of teleport homers in general for us. We have nothing with Infiltrate or Scout, so there is no way to position a teleport homer forward of our normal DZ with just GK units. Also, teleport homers specifically state that 'units comprised entirely of models in Terminator armour'. So Centurions are out of the game anyway, as are Purifiers. 

 

If you want to land Draigo+friends accurately in enemy lines, you need locator beacons on drop pods. That would work, as locator beacons only care that you arrive via Deepstrike, not what armour you're wearing (they work for Jump Infantry etc). 

[jeffersonian000]

 

Because the models are removed from the table before being returned via Deep Strike, the first clause of Deep Strike is met: place the unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The second clause is met by the immediate return, which bypasses rolling to arrive as well as the turn sequence restriction.

 

And this is still illegal by your ruling, as the unit doesn't have the Deep Strike rule.

GoI grants Deep Strike via telling us to use the rules for Deep Strike. That clause is met, too.

 

I'd just like to point out the utter uselessness of teleport homers in general for us. We have nothing with Infiltrate or Scout, so there is no way to position a teleport homer forward of our normal DZ with just GK units. Also, teleport homers specifically state that 'units comprised entirely of models in Terminator armour'. So Centurions are out of the game anyway, as are Purifiers.

And this is why I've delved deeply into the actual rules as written to see what can be done within our codex. The language used in Teleport Homers, Gate of Infinity, and Rites of Teleportation align with the language used in Deep Strike, netting a synergy of rules not normally available to other armies.

 

If you want to land Draigo+friends accurately in enemy lines, you need locator beacons on drop pods. That would work, as locator beacons only care that you arrive via Deepstrike, not what armour you're wearing (they work for Jump Infantry etc).

And you are absolutely correct, if using Allies. If running pure, Teleport Homers on our native units and Locator Beacons on Stormravens achieve the same goal.

 

And yes, I still think it is a good use of Interceptors (and GKT), being able to set up drop points for Draigo and his TDA bodyguard. This was the original use for Purgation squads in 5th (5pt Teleport Homer on their Justicar), and the reason why Mordrak + Libby w/ Homer worked so well. Now in 7th, we can spread out the tactic with premium cost Homers that only work with units in our codex we would be takng anyway. Need reinforcements, or to pull your CC squad out of combat? Gate Draigo and friends to a safe point next to even more friends.

 

SJ

[IndigoJack]

Your confusing the rules. It says use the rules for deep strike, not use the deep strike special rule. Since your not actually performing a deep strike but using the rules for it, you cannot use it work teleport homers or use the command benefit from the nemesis strike force detachment

[jeffersonian000]

Your confusing the rules. It says use the rules for deep strike, not use the deep strike special rule. Since your not actually performing a deep strike but using the rules for it, you cannot use it work teleport homers or use the command benefit from the nemesis strike force detachment

Your interpretation is false. When it says "use the rules for", you use the rules for. You don't pick and chose which of those rules you use and which you don't. GoI tells us to use the rules for Deep Strike, modified to arrive immediately, and ignoring the requirements of starting in Reserve and having the DS USR. Deep Strike tells that unit arriving by Deep Strike has arrived from Deep Strike Reserve, and arriving by Deep Strike Reserve is a trigger for both Rites of Teleportation (restricted to NSF units) and Teleport Homers (restricted to TDA and models with PT). GW wrote it that way (RAW). I believe they wrote it intentionally (RAI). I also understand that it is not how you would play it (HYWPI).

 

SJ

[Captain Coolpants]

... "Use the rules for deepstrike", does not mean deepstrike... Otherwise it would say specifically that it 're-arrives' or leaves the board and 'actually deepstrikes'.

 

 

It's not like I wouldn't like it to be the case, but think of it logically... is eeeeeevery grey knights player, batrep maker and tourney rules enforcers (or whatever they are) wrong, or are you, a single person, wrong?

[jeffersonian000]

... "Use the rules for deepstrike", does not mean deepstrike... Otherwise it would say specifically that it 're-arrives' or leaves the board and 'actually deepstrikes'.

 

It's not like I wouldn't like it to be the case, but think of it logically... is eeeeeevery grey knights player, batrep maker and tourney rules enforcers (or whatever they are) wrong, or are you, a single person, wrong?

"Use the rules for Deep Strike" tells us to use the rules for Deep Strike. There is no reason to use other language than the plain language they used. And they do specify modifications to the rules for Deep Strike, as I've already noted.

 

As to the rest, name one tournament or Batrep that even addresses the question, let alone asks. I have not seen anyone use it in a national setting, nor seen it discussed in detail beyond what we are doing here right now. Does not mean I'm wrong, just means that there is a lack of data on others using it. Could be that people prefer allying to buff there GK (as seen in recent tournaments), or buff they base army with GK (also seen). Could be that using Homers this way prevents Centstars from using it, wasting the ponts spent on Homers. Have you seem anyone use Locator Beacons on Drop Pods to support GoI? I haven't, but I have discussed it on forums. It is a trick, no doubt, and you pay a lot for it. It also discourages Allies, which I have no issues with since I play mostly pure GK anyway.

 

SJ

[IndigoJack]

If you have to use the whole rule for deep strike when using GoI, it doesn't work, as those units are not arriving from reserves. No major tournament (I know LVO didn't) has ruled it to work the way you believe, and those guys are serious rule lawyers.

 

And I've used locator beacons with centstar, but that works because the language if locator beacons don't require you to arrive from reserves. That's why locator beacons work when disembarking from a zooming stormraven