Command squads

[Himlur]

So I've been considering running a command as follows:

 

1 chapter champion

1 novice priest

3 marines x3 plasma x3 storm shield

 

In a pod, t1 drop kill said target rapid fire plasma. If it gets hot failed armor safes + FNP. Opponents turn they can over watch plasma. Or if being shot at FNP with 3+ invul. Points 210 is this a good to semi good idea thought? Is this even legal to even field it this way I may be mistaken?

[Lucien Eilam]

I wouldn't bother with the storm shields. For most armies, if they want to remove 5 power armoured Space Marines, they'll do it with weight of fire, not high AP.

 

With two mandatory specialists now, I'm not really convinced by special weapon command squads at all. They're unlikely to survive for a second shot anyway, so personally I'd rather take Sternguard with 5x combi-plasma and make the most of that one round.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I think 3 x melta + 3 x SS and jump packs is probably a better way to run CSes now.

[CastellanDeMolay]

I wouldn't bother with the storm shields. For most armies, if they want to remove 5 power armoured Space Marines, they'll do it with weight of fire, not high AP.

 

With two mandatory specialists now, I'm not really convinced by special weapon command squads at all. They're unlikely to survive for a second shot anyway, so personally I'd rather take Sternguard with 5x combi-plasma and make the most of that one round.

This. I don't think the Command Squad are worthwhile for BA, unless you specifically want a 5 man unit with an apothecary to accompany an HQ. For anything else the other Elites choices are generally more effective and more flexible. The only thing the Command Squad really brings that nobody else does is the Company Banner, which doesn't do much for an army with Ld 8+ and ATSKNF. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

For anything else the other Elites choices are generally more effective and more flexible.

 

 

That's actually the opposite. No squad is as flexible as the CS.

[CastellanDeMolay]

 

 

For anything else the other Elites choices are generally more effective and more flexible.

 

 

That's actually the opposite. No squad is as flexible as the CS.

 

That depends where you're applying the term flexible. The other Elites choices are, collectively, more flexible than the CS. While individual units may not have the same range of options, you'll generally not want to mix the roles of a command squad, because they then become mediocre at several things rather than good at one thing. If the CS wasn't straight-jacketed into taking the Novitiate and the Company Champion, and if additional Veterans were an option they actually would be more flexible than the other units combined. As it is, I couldn't see myself taking a Command Squad over Vanguard. Death Company or Sternguard, unless I very specifically wanted FNP for an attached character(s). 

 

If they had access to DA style Sacred Standards they would be totally worthwhile, even with the gimped composition. 

[shaun03]

CS need planed out with roll in mind, there flexibility is great in this aspect but stuffers if try to turn them in to a Swiss army knife. Pick a job for them to and build it. Either there going to be support death co with plasma shots or busting up tanks melta, and unloading a :cuss ton of mobile Grav gun.

 

You can replace everyone gear with what ever you like, down side is there point reducing for PW and CS for the champion. If you able to duct those points and JP were priced along side the rest of the codex this would turn them in to a steal.

 

If going with BSF I like to gear them for assult roles, flamers, meltas ect.

 

When selecting CAD I been trying out SS/grav guns combo with JP makes them threat, not as fast as bikes ( I do not run biker personally) but good second place to Grav gun bikers, cheaper than Stern guard and more survivable too.

 

Play around with SQ and try out few builds there nice surprise unit in codex, and yes if they had accsse to better types of banners that would boost them greaty

[Captain Caine 24th]

First off I've been really wanting to try out storm shields on these guys and vanguard. I haven't gotten them painted yet. That said, the command squad being an elite isn't great. The FnP is decent. The champion could take a challenge for character that joins them--which may be useful if some chaos sergeant comes running in with a powerfist. On the negative side I agree with the above that they may not be all that resilient to volume fire. My thought would be that if you run this, you'd team it with one or more other pods/threats that could divert some of that fire so this command squad could do its job. Also, I've run pods for a long time but have never run the missiles on the pod. Maybe this is a situation to consider it. 

 

I think the load out you have there can cause a lot of damage if neglected by the opponent. Mephiston or a psyker could help this squad a bit. (i.e get lucky on divination for ignores cover on those plasma guns). I suppose if you had a few pods you might have different characters ride with different squads depending on the mission. 

 

Maybe I should back up and consider the intent of the squad. If it's just fire power for one turn the 5-man sternguard is probably right. If you want something a bit more resilient I think this could work so long as it's part of some kind of combined arms strategy. 

[Himlur]

First off I've been really wanting to try out storm shields on these guys and vanguard. I haven't gotten them painted yet. That said, the command squad being an elite isn't great. The FnP is decent. The champion could take a challenge for character that joins them--which may be useful if some chaos sergeant comes running in with a powerfist. On the negative side I agree with the above that they may not be all that resilient to volume fire. My thought would be that if you run this, you'd team it with one or more other pods/threats that could divert some of that fire so this command squad could do its job. Also, I've run pods for a long time but have never run the missiles on the pod. Maybe this is a situation to consider it. 

 

I think the load out you have there can cause a lot of damage if neglected by the opponent. Mephiston or a psyker could help this squad a bit. (i.e get lucky on divination for ignores cover on those plasma guns). I suppose if you had a few pods you might have different characters ride with different squads depending on the mission. 

 

Maybe I should back up and consider the intent of the squad. If it's just fire power for one turn the 5-man sternguard is probably right. If you want something a bit more resilient I think this could work so long as it's part of some kind of combined arms strategy. 

 

Attaching a librarian could be an good addition to them for powers. I was thinking of 4 drop pods for my army. T1 CS and tac squad would end up dropping near each other to draw fire. Tac squad would be flamer squad so it will draw a lot of treat as well. I have a stern guard combi-melta squad as-well all depends on what I'm going up against. Witch would govern what squad would be dropping T1. I really want to try it. I think it would be fun, not so much for competitive play. Unless it really does work out well. Thanks for the thoughts guys.

[Venemox]

I really enjoyed my 4 x Plasmagun Command Squad last edition.  The forced Company Champion is making me second guess how I run them.  As an honor guard for a choppy HQ is a good use, but that means remodelling the entire squad.

[CastellanDeMolay]

Speaking of Librarians... Dark Angels Librarius Conclave? 3-5 models, whom benefit from FNP, whom can take a PFG to give the whole unit a 4++. It's a lot of eggs for one basket, but I can't think of too many escorts that would work better for them. 

[Charlo]

Speaking of Librarians... Dark Angels Librarius Conclave? 3-5 models, whom benefit from FNP, whom can take a PFG to give the whole unit a 4++. It's a lot of eggs for one basket, but I can't think of too many escorts that would work better for them. 

 

That's a pretty awesome idea. I've been toying with the idea of the conclave, can help any Marine army with a bit more Oomph in the Psychic Phase!

 

In regards to the CS, the 3 special weapons and storm shields make a great escort for a character in a pod (like Mephiston). while plasma limits your charges next turn, 3 of those or 3  meltas means you can get some solid kills on the drop, the SS and FNP protecting you from retaliation and the Champion protects Mephy from challenges!

[Deschenus Maximus]

That depends where you're applying the term flexible. The other Elites choices are, collectively, more flexible than the CS. While individual units may not have the same range of options, you'll generally not want to mix the roles of a command squad, because they then become mediocre at several things rather than good at one thing. If the CS wasn't straight-jacketed into taking the Novitiate and the Company Champion, and if additional Veterans were an option they actually would be more flexible than the other units combined. As it is, I couldn't see myself taking a Command Squad over Vanguard. Death Company or Sternguard, unless I very specifically wanted FNP for an attached character(s). 

 

If they had access to DA style Sacred Standards they would be totally worthwhile, even with the gimped composition. 

 

 

The Apoth and Champ does mean the CS isn't as flexible as it once was, but that doesn't make it bad. It is more points-efficient than Vanguard, more flexible than DC and more mobile than Sternguard. It's a real winner of a unit.

[shaun03]

Junior SP in the sq is worth it, he can still take other gear and FNP applies to any one who joins the sq.

 

The only down side to Champ is like I said earlier you don't get a discount if you want to upgrade his gear. Power sword and CS aren't great CH killers, good for most MEq sgt CSM sgt some xeno, but being forced to challeng might end up back fireing, yes in perfect gaming world you can dicte the charges you want, however :cuss happens and some times your enemy plans work better than your own.

[Deschenus Maximus]

shaun, unfortunately neither the champ nor the apoth can take wargear. Only Veterans are allowed. Stupid, but that's how it is.

[Jolemai]

 

That depends where you're applying the term flexible. The other Elites choices are, collectively, more flexible than the CS. While individual units may not have the same range of options, you'll generally not want to mix the roles of a command squad, because they then become mediocre at several things rather than good at one thing. If the CS wasn't straight-jacketed into taking the Novitiate and the Company Champion, and if additional Veterans were an option they actually would be more flexible than the other units combined. As it is, I couldn't see myself taking a Command Squad over Vanguard. Death Company or Sternguard, unless I very specifically wanted FNP for an attached character(s). 

 

If they had access to DA style Sacred Standards they would be totally worthwhile, even with the gimped composition. 

 

 

The Apoth and Champ does mean the CS isn't as flexible as it once was, but that doesn't make it bad. It is more points-efficient than Vanguard, more flexible than DC and more mobile than Sternguard. It's a real winner of a unit.

 

 

I tend to feel the same way, especially when the three Veterans take Melta Bombs. Deschenus, you tend to do a lot of theoryhammer but rarely post reports. If I may, have you tried your Command Squad (and your other theories) out yet?

 

It's just a shame that the meltagun and flamer combination is no longer viable...

[BloodTzar]

Hello brothers,

 

the CS has been for some time hit of the 5th, I remember getting 4 melta/flamer for with a free semi-priest and DoA it where you needed, lot of us have started experimenting with them and SS. However I believe that the consensus has been reached that they are far too expensive for so few bodies.

 

Personally, I think the same may apply now,therefore I think we have much better option with our ASM-melta-suicide sq if you really want to have high precision melta on the ground. Or the 10 man VV with melta bombs jumping across the field, however I do not find them as competetive as 10 man DC due to priest tax (perhaps the formation that allows VV to get PW for free).  

 

Lastly, the name of the game for BA in 7th I think is;  "more boys over toys". The reason for that is simple. we do not have any durable elitist units -OR- death stars, therefore I would go for target saturation, where I do not see any use of 215~ 5 man CS; that can do 4 melta shots plus  3+/3++ with FNP , that brings me to the cost of almost 2 5 man ASM 3 melta shots squads (both in DP) 

 

~BT

[Karhedron]

I agree. 2 squads have double number of wounds making tougher against small arms fire and only slightly less durable against AP3+. They also get a lot more shots.

 

Boys over toys indeed.

[Himlur]

You guys make a good point I would be wasting time investing in the CS. Have more body's and shots for the same cost. T1 as well. I think I'll be investing in some assault squads. I still like the saves with the CS, it still doesn't out weigh the amount of body's and shots for the cost.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

I tend to feel the same way, especially when the three Veterans take Melta Bombs. Deschenus, you tend to do a lot of theoryhammer but rarely post reports. If I may, have you tried your Command Squad (and your other theories) out yet?

 

It's just a shame that the meltagun and flamer combination is no longer viable...

 

 

I haven't tried out the Command Squad yet. Brand new baby has killed my gaming time.

 

Also, melta/flamer is still viable. 1. trade chainsword for melta 2. trade pistol for chainsword 3. trade new chainsword for flamer.

 

Circuitous but legal.

 

 

Hello brothers,

 

the CS has been for some time hit of the 5th, I remember getting 4 melta/flamer for with a free semi-priest and DoA it where you needed, lot of us have started experimenting with them and SS. However I believe that the consensus has been reached that they are far too expensive for so few bodies.

 

Personally, I think the same may apply now,therefore I think we have much better option with our ASM-melta-suicide sq if you really want to have high precision melta on the ground. Or the 10 man VV with melta bombs jumping across the field, however I do not find them as competetive as 10 man DC due to priest tax (perhaps the formation that allows VV to get PW for free).  

 

Lastly, the name of the game for BA in 7th I think is;  "more boys over toys". The reason for that is simple. we do not have any durable elitist units -OR- death stars, therefore I would go for target saturation, where I do not see any use of 215~ 5 man CS; that can do 4 melta shots plus  3+/3++ with FNP , that brings me to the cost of almost 2 5 man ASM 3 melta shots squads (both in DP) 

 

~BT

 

That is missing the point. Melta CS isn't a suicide melticide squad and shouldn't be used as such.

[Deadman Wade]

I've used CS with meltas in drop pod to escort Seth and lvl2 librarian. Certainly not a tournament-winning unit, but it managed to do what I wanted - arrived, fired meltas and gave Seth some durability.

[Jorre]

Hello brothers,

 

the CS has been for some time hit of the 5th, I remember getting 4 melta/flamer for with a free semi-priest and DoA it where you needed, lot of us have started experimenting with them and SS. However I believe that the consensus has been reached that they are far too expensive for so few bodies.

 

Personally, I think the same may apply now,therefore I think we have much better option with our ASM-melta-suicide sq if you really want to have high precision melta on the ground. Or the 10 man VV with melta bombs jumping across the field, however I do not find them as competetive as 10 man DC due to priest tax (perhaps the formation that allows VV to get PW for free).

 

Lastly, the name of the game for BA in 7th I think is; "more boys over toys". The reason for that is simple. we do not have any durable elitist units -OR- death stars, therefore I would go for target saturation, where I do not see any use of 215~ 5 man CS; that can do 4 melta shots plus 3+/3++ with FNP , that brings me to the cost of almost 2 5 man ASM 3 melta shots squads (both in DP)

 

~BT

A few points from me

 

A melta command squad, eg 3xmelta 3xstorm shield all with jump packs comes to 185 points. This also includes a priest with fnp and a champion with power weapon.

 

That is significantly cheaper than a 220 point assault squad and while they don't have as many wounds the fnp almost makes up for that loss.

 

I don't know how you run your command squads to make them that expensive

 

I think the command squad is one of the better delivery systems available to us for a beatstick, like Dante or a captain with jump pack.

 

Once you add a beat stick to a command squad the extra fnp just becomes 10x more useful!

[DominicJ]

In my view

 

Captains and command squads (not necessarily combined) work in small games

 

Once you get past that small game boundary, they are hopelessly outclassed by Chapter Masters and honour guards

 

Command squads are a unique set of capabilities, but VVs, StGs, SaGs and DC offer better unique capabilities.

 

Even bog standard assault squads or tactical squads do.

[Lucien Eilam]

That is significantly cheaper than a 220 point assault squad and while they don't have as many wounds the fnp almost makes up for that loss.

 

2x5 Assault Marines with 4 meltaguns is 210 points. 25 points isn't really a significant difference. You can't even buy two Marines for that.

 

For that you have twice as many targets, twice as many wounds, and more melta (i.e. the whole point of buying them in the first place) capable of shooting at two different units.

 

What you give up makes little or no difference to the job you're buying a melta squad to do. What good is that power sword to a squad of tank-hunters?

 

A 5 man Marine squad can't afford to have a mixed role. The mandatory close combat specialist really pigeonholes them for assault, in my opinion.

[Jorre]

 

That is significantly cheaper than a 220 point assault squad and while they don't have as many wounds the fnp almost makes up for that loss.

 

 

2x5 Assault Marines with 4 meltaguns is 210 points. 25 points isn't really a significant difference. You can't even buy two Marines for that.

 

For that you have twice as many targets, twice as many wounds, and more melta (i.e. the whole point of buying them in the first place) capable of shooting at two different units.

 

What you give up makes little or no difference to the job you're buying a melta squad to do. What good is that power sword to a squad of tank-hunters?

 

A 5 man Marine squad can't afford to have a mixed role. The mandatory close combat specialist really pigeonholes them for assault, in my opinion.

If I was using them purely for Mech hunting 2 5man assault squads would be clearly superior! I never questioned that. What I am saying is

 

1. The command squad is cheaper than originally stated.

 

2. Is a far better delivery system for our big hitters simply because they can take storm shields and have fnp!

 

The melta guns are optional in this role, but since they are assault weapons and only 10 points each I think they are a pretty good buy and make the unit far more versatile!