Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Spamming psilencer is a terrible idea. We need psycannon to break vehicles, do damage to high Toughness targets, kill infantry...it's our workhorse gun. Gatling psilencer is a matchup dependent choice. Remember, against a mech list, it's completely worthless. Likewise, if the enemy bring no multi-wound models or hide them in masses of lesser infantry (Orks for example), it won't do much besides kill basic chaff. Heavy psycannon is a mandatory choice. It's our best gun by far, it's better than our infantry psycannon (which is already a fantastic special weapon), and the large blast mode just makes it even more flexible and relevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3979903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Gatling psilencer is a matchup dependent choice. Remember, against a mech list, it's completely worthless. Likewise, if the enemy bring no multi-wound models or hide them in masses of lesser infantry (Orks for example), it won't do much besides kill basic chaff.And that is why I pair the H Psilencer with a Hammer, to deal with targets that are immune to S4 Force. Concussion has a better utility than Master Crafted when the target laughs at your soul shredding Gatling flashlight. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 And that is why I pair the H Psilencer with a Hammer, to deal with targets that are immune to S4 Force. Concussion has a better utility than Master Crafted when the target laughs at your soul shredding Gatling flashlight. Well don't forget that Concussive only applies to your normal attacks, not your Hammer of Wrath. So normally, you don't even reduce them to I1 until after the first round of combat (I4 isn't that fast compared to a lot of MC's, and those that you do apply Concussive to already go second). I find the re-roll matters more, WS5 can whiff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I agree, re-rolls are better IMO. Concussive only applies to models with wounds, and if I really want them gone I'll activate force Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Concussive only applies to models with wounds, It also causes auto-shaken to vehicles, which means if they survive (I dunno, if its a super-heavy or something, most vehicles are flaming wreckage after a DK touches them), only Snap Shots next turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Unfortunately, concussive no longer does that. When they stream-lined the rules for 6th, they changed it to reducing a model wounded by a weapon with concussive to initiative 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Unfortunately, concussive no longer does that. When they stream-lined the rules for 6th, they changed it to reducing a model wounded by a weapon with concussive to initiative 1. Wth. Okay fair enough. That was kinda the main reason people took thunderhammers over fists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Unfortunately, concussive no longer does that. When they stream-lined the rules for 6th, they changed it to reducing a model wounded by a weapon with concussive to initiative 1. Wth. Okay fair enough. That was kinda the main reason people took thunderhammers over fists... No? People always took it for the Initiative 1, not for the shaken result which literally almost never ever mattered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Again, I am back to thinking balance is best. A bit of everything, and the only really flexible item seems to be the Hvy Psycannon. That being said, the idea of massed Heavy Psilencers with Prescience sounds juicy against the right opponent. I imagine Nids would outright hate that. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The thing to remember with psilencer is you're very reliant on them failing armour saves. MC's usually pack a 3+ or even 2+ armour save, and you only wound on 6's as well, so your actual wounds caused by a typical volley might only be 2-3 at best. Also, in melee you delete most MC's without issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3980862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 The thing to remember with psilencer is you're very reliant on them failing armour saves. MC's usually pack a 3+ or even 2+ armour save, and you only wound on 6's as well, so your actual wounds caused by a typical volley might only be 2-3 at best. Also, in melee you delete most MC's without issue. But there's more to it than failing an armour save... it's about denying them a FnP save, which quite frankly I seem to face all too often in my meta. It seems everyone has access to something that was very rare not too long ago... getting a second chance at making a save. Worse than that, because the base rule of FnP is a 5+, a lot of these xenos are actually using it as a 'main' save. That's just ridiculous in my eyes because many of these units/models are pointed out in a codex for simply have a cruddy save. Giving them two saves (with FnP save often being better/the same than their inherent one) is really potent. All I can say is for my meta, it's worth it. Popping spawns, or 6 wound models on (admittedly) a lucky missed save is just really enticing to me right now. If I experiment this for a while, and I find I was wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. But on the other side of the fence, even Cron's are effected by it, and I'll take any little help I can get. We'll see if it's worth it or not. Right now I'm only including one in my entire list, so although I see some real potential value in it, I'm not going crazy on arming everything with one. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3981299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I used to take Hammers for the stun lock. Stun locked an Avatar once. Was golden. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3981390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 But there's more to it than failing an armour save... it's about denying them a FnP save, which quite frankly I seem to face all too often in my meta. It seems everyone has access to something that was very rare not too long ago... getting a second chance at making a save. Worse than that, because the base rule of FnP is a 5+, a lot of these xenos are actually using it as a 'main' save. That's just ridiculous in my eyes because many of these units/models are pointed out in a codex for simply have a cruddy save. Giving them two saves (with FnP save often being better/the same than their inherent one) is really potent. All I can say is for my meta, it's worth it. Popping spawns, or 6 wound models on (admittedly) a lucky missed save is just really enticing to me right now. If I experiment this for a while, and I find I was wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. But on the other side of the fence, even Cron's are effected by it, and I'll take any little help I can get. We'll see if it's worth it or not. Right now I'm only including one in my entire list, so although I see some real potential value in it, I'm not going crazy on arming everything with one. Oh yeah, against the right target, the gat is totally absurd. Deleting Ogryns, or Tyranid Warriors, or Hive Guard, or Centurions...good feeling. Denying FNP is a nice bonus too for an anti-infantry cannon, it means against chaff with absurd FNP (like Plague Zombies, or Gaunts under 'Catalyst' etc), you can remove that layer of save. Mind you, heavy incinerator usually does the trick anyway ;) and Ignores Cover, which is very powerful against a lot of non-Marine infantry. Same, I'm looking at a 2-1 mix on my 3x Dreadknights (I've gone back to CAD recently...my local Interceptor has made my NSF kinda bleh). I still like a single heavy incinerator in my list, just for spot removal of chaff on objectives. No miss is huge an anti-infantry gun, i love placing the flamer template and just deleting things at will Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304639-nemesis-dreadknights-psilencer-vs-psycannon/page/2/#findComment-3984989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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