vharing Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I have recentally started a Grey Knights army and currently in the list writing/ building models phase. I want to build a TDA heavy army with a Grand Master but cant decide which relic to take. I want him to kill stuff in combat but the AP3 of the glaive bothers me. My other thought is to go with a hammer and the cuirass. I was wondering about some other opinions before I bust out the glue and make his wargear permanent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Hammer, Cuirass, Psycannon, Prescience. Save the Glaive for another model. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3979090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamon Wolf Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I agree that or Take Dragio Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3979692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think divination is somewhat wasted on such unit. Grandmaster is already WS6 (precognition) BS5 (prescience) , psycannons already rending (misfortune), a 4++ (forewarning) can be get by sanctic also. Ignore cover is nice against jinking and full BS overwatch is also good. Contrary getting GOI or cleansing flame is pure win and adds more tools to the box. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3979896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vharing Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 My army is Draigo, grandmaster, librarian, a squad of paladins and a couple squads of terminator squads. Running it as a nemisis strike force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3979947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I find that the things that really scare a model with a 2+ 5++ (or 4++) generally ignore the Cuirass as well. If it's cutting through my 2+ save it's probably S8+, so I won't be getting any FnP and It Will Not Die won't help me either because it's going to kill me outright. I also tend to find that if I have a couple of models with hammers in the squad, then that is usually enough to destroy anything with a 2+ save that I run into. So, I tend to take the Soul Glaive on my Grandmaster. Now, occasionally I find myself in a situation where an enemy character has a 2+ save, an AP2 weapon, and wants to challenge me. In these circumstances I just have to hope that my Justicar is still alive to catch the challenge and the rest of my squad can obliterate the enemy character with their hammers. Generally I try and avoid these characters with my GM, and frankly you really don't see many of them. The boost to activating Force is sometimes quite handy as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3979991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I perils often. It's my curse so I love ❤ fnp on psykers. Iwnd is just icing on the cake I plan on taking on my lvl 3 sorc in 1850 games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The Divination is not for the GM, it's for the squad he's attached too. The Hammer is for challenges. Personally, I the Glaive is better on a second Librarian (first one gets the Liber), or on a Techmarine attached to Purifiers. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 FNP has many uses. Also, you still have your 2+ armour and 4+ invul for S8+ hits. Plus you can always Look Out Sir! a lascannon wound or whatever if need be. Cuirass is the best relic by far. Soul Glaive is held back by AP3 and being essentially a very nice halberd. Nemesis hammer gets the job done, no matter who you fight. Divination is still useful on a GM. WS6 is nice but a lot of the premier melee MC's and characters have at least WS6 or higher, so re-rolls when you're hitting on 4's is very handy. BS5 can still fail you on 1's to hit, so re-rolling them means you psycannon will generally hit with every shot, again very handy. And of course, 'Prescience' and his other Divination powers apply to the Terminators he's with as well. Divination is a massive force multiplier for us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The problem I have with the hammer is that, any time you need the AP2, you're probably going to wind up trading models because it's very likely you and your opponent will be swinging at I1, with S8+. Things with 2+ armour tend to be toting AP2 weapons, after all. So yeah, the GM with a hammer might kill some dudes, but he's going to die as well and that Cuirass isn't going to help. I'd prefer to keep him out of situations like that altogether, and use the Glaive to butcher everything else. It is, of course, horses for courses but I don't think it's fair to say that the Cuirass is the best relic by far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 My grandmaster/brother captain aaaaaalways ends up in combat with ap2....always... So I cannot afford to not give them a hammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The problem I have with the hammer is that, any time you need the AP2, you're probably going to wind up trading models because it's very likely you and your opponent will be swinging at I1, with S8+. Things with 2+ armour tend to be toting AP2 weapons, after all. So yeah, the GM with a hammer might kill some dudes, but he's going to die as well and that Cuirass isn't going to help. I'd prefer to keep him out of situations like that altogether, and use the Glaive to butcher everything else. So? If that's true, the Glaive isn't worth anything in that fight, as it'll bounce off their 2+ armour save and do nothing. At least with the hammer, you're pretty much guranteed to take them down with you (especially if you turn on 'Force' or 'Hammerhand' prior). As I mentioned before, against anything S7 or less, Cuirass has great utility, and don't forget you also get IWND to regen lost wounds. Not dying to Perils is a great bonus as well. It is, of course, horses for courses but I don't think it's fair to say that the Cuirass is the best relic by far. It's the same price as a plasma pistol, but it helps you out in pretty much every stage of the game (you still are in TDA, so Deepstrike is still go, it helps in the Psychic phase with FNP, and in the enemy Shooting and both Assault phases you have FNP and IWND). The Glaive is basically a super-halberd, with the attendant drawbacks (slight increase in Strength, pretty much guranteed Force, re-rolls to hit/wound if 'Force' activates....but only AP3 and you're still only I5, which isn't fast enough against a lot of MC's and characters). It's arguably better than the Liber in some ways, as the Liber helps with re-rolling 1's but if you Perils on 6's its of no use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The problem I have with the hammer is that, any time you need the AP2, you're probably going to wind up trading models because it's very likely you and your opponent will be swinging at I1, with S8+. Things with 2+ armour tend to be toting AP2 weapons, after all. So yeah, the GM with a hammer might kill some dudes, but he's going to die as well and that Cuirass isn't going to help. I'd prefer to keep him out of situations like that altogether, and use the Glaive to butcher everything else. So? If that's true, the Glaive isn't worth anything in that fight So my point is that I try very hard not to get into that fight, which means a hammer is of limited utility to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 So my point is that I try very hard not to get into that fight, which means a hammer is of limited utility to me. Okay but your Dreadknights can't do everything. On say a Librarian, of course I wouldn't usually take a hammer (falchions fix his 2A issue and are free anyway). But a Grandmaster has a Chapter Master statline, and he pays to be both a combat lord and a support psyker. He should do some of the heavy lifting in melee. Nemesis hammer solves all problems, you just have to survive long enough to swing. 2+/4+/5+FNP is very survivable, there are few things that can negate all of those at once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 So my point is that I try very hard not to get into that fight, which means a hammer is of limited utility to me. Okay but your Dreadknights can't do everything. On say a Librarian, of course I wouldn't usually take a hammer (falchions fix his 2A issue and are free anyway). But a Grandmaster has a Chapter Master statline, and he pays to be both a combat lord and a support psyker. He should do some of the heavy lifting in melee. Nemesis hammer solves all problems, you just have to survive long enough to swing. 2+/4+/5+FNP is very survivable, there are few things that can negate all of those at once. AP2 in close combat isn't that common, so I don't need my Dreadknights to do everything. Usually the enemy will only have one or two units capable of putting out that hurt, so I just make sure they are targeted by other parts of my army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 AP2 in close combat isn't that common, so I don't need my Dreadknights to do everything. Usually the enemy will only have one or two units capable of putting out that hurt, so I just make sure they are targeted by other parts of my army. True, but they'll make a bee-line for your Warlord with the units that do have it. Also, all MC's have AP2 melee, and most of the good combat heroes do as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 This is true, but it rarely presents itself as a problem in my games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 It's also a matter of offensive too, not just defense. I like having the security of just going 'yeah you don't get your armour save, and I'm hitting you at S8, S10 if I cast 'Hammerhand'. I don't have to worry about turning on 'Force' normally, unless I fight something that's T6 or higher. Soul Glaive also does very little to walkers or vehicles, until you turn on 'Hammerhand' (and even then, you're only S7, which can still whiff even against AV10 rear on non-walkers). I dislike having specialised melee weapons, hammer is just so flexible and scary to fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3980911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I perils often. It's my curse so I love ❤ fnp on psykers. Iwnd is just icing on the cake I plan on taking on my lvl 3 sorc in 1850 games. FNP works for perils? does the phrase "with no saves of any kind allowed" refeers only to armour and invulnerable saves? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 BTW, I ussualy find more love to the Soul Glaive... the rerroll to hit and to wound on my grand master is the best part, but i ussualy equip him with a Psilencer, so... it's the perfect combination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 FnP isn't a save, it's just a roll to ignore a wound after a save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 mh... that's sounds like a save... but... ok... So, i will try this fnp on my libby... I perils a lot too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I perils often. It's my curse so I love ❤ fnp on psykers. Iwnd is just icing on the cake I plan on taking on my lvl 3 sorc in 1850 games. FNP works for perils? does the phrase "with no saves of any kind allowed" refeers only to armour and invulnerable saves? Yes it does work for Perils. Rurik the blessed, on 19 Mar 2015 - 10:59 AM, said: mh... that's sounds like a save... but... ok... So, i will try this fnp on my libby... I perils a lot too. I think the concept is; it's not really a save. It's more like 'taking it in the gut' and just ignoring the pain because... it's only a fleshwound. You laugh it off, but still take the pain, just simply.... don't feel it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I perils often. It's my curse so I love ❤ fnp on psykers. Iwnd is just icing on the cake I plan on taking on my lvl 3 sorc in 1850 games. FNP works for perils? does the phrase "with no saves of any kind allowed" refeers only to armour and invulnerable saves? Yes it does work for Perils. Rurik the blessed, on 19 Mar 2015 - 10:59 AM, said: mh... that's sounds like a save... but... ok... So, i will try this fnp on my libby... I perils a lot too. I think the concept is; it's not really a save. It's more like 'taking it in the gut' and just ignoring the pain because... it's only a fleshwound. You laugh it off, but still take the pain, just simply.... don't feel it! haha... maybe you are right... but how does this apply to the warp?, i mean... it suposse that something is trying to drag you in... anyway... I'm just off-topic-ing.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Is a perils dragging you into the warp? I thought it was just taking a mental lash at you? I suppose this is why the Emperor died. He fought Horus on the physical plain, and the Psychic plain. Apparently for all his fancy armour, all he really needed was a FnP to ignore Horus' Talon cut. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304724-soul-glaive-or-cuirass-of-sacrifice/#findComment-3981575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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