Death Company vs. Terminators

[LutherMax]

Not as in which do you prefer but how do you think, say 10 DC+Chaplain would fare against, say 5 tactical Termies. Termies have 2+/5++ but DC aren't too far behind with 3+/5++. With the Chappie 10 DC deliver 35 attacks on the charge and re-roll misses - that's a lot of saves to make for five targets.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I think the winner would be the termies in the long run. Power fists dont allow feel no pain i belive as they would cause instant death

[Blood & Thunder]

Depends on how each are kitted out. If dc have assault packs and get the charge off they would have an advantage, the termies could knock out a few at mid range and then clear them out if they survive a boat load of attacks. But it all really comes down to who gets the charge.

 

all depends how you play them

[Bukimimaru]

Yep. The Death Company might get lucky if they get the charge, but if the Termies got the charge it would be 3's to hit, 2s to kill with no save. Dead DC.

[LutherMax]

I ALWAYS run DC out of an assault vehicle - guaranteed charge (if the termies are my first target). Plus if taking Baal Strike Force they're Initiative 5. I normally give them two power axes and one fist for AP2 (those hits at Initiative 1 of course...

[Alluminas]

10 stock DC on the charge have 2 attack on stat +1 for 2 cc wep, +2 for rage which is 50 attacks without the chappy. Correct?

[casb1965]

That's 290pts of DC and Chaplain against 200pts of Termies so we're not even looking at a straight up equal points battle. Bring the termies up to 290 that's a unit of 7 (9 if they're GKT)

 

Even with all the buffs I can't see the DC outlasting Terminators.

[TheSauce]

Assuming 10 DC with CCW + Bolt Pistol:

 

Strict mathammer says that the 10 DC should do (50 * 3/4 to hit * 2/3 to wound * 1/6 unsaved) = 4.17 wounds to the terminators, with the chappy doing another small fraction.

 

So on good dice the DC will kill all of the terminators on the charge before they get to strike. However, if the terminators roll hot on their saves, they'll take a chunk out of the DC with their strikes back.

 

If the DC don't get the charge, then things don't look as good. They still strike at the same time as the terminator sergeant, but will only do (30 * 3/4 to hit * 1/2 to wound * 1/6 unsaved) = 1.875 unsaved wounds, while taking about 1 wound from the T. Sergeant power sword and 5 more from the terminators (12 attacks * 1/2 to hit * 5/6 to wound, no saves). The following rounds would go to the terminators.

[casb1965]

Assuming 10 DC with CCW + Bolt Pistol:

 

Strict mathammer says that the 10 DC should do (50 * 3/4 to hit * 2/3 to wound * 1/6 unsaved) = 4.17 wounds to the terminators, with the chappy doing another small fraction.

 

So on good dice the DC will kill all of the terminators on the charge before they get to strike. However, if the terminators roll hot on their saves, they'll take a chunk out of the DC with their strikes back.

 

If the DC don't get the charge, then things don't look as good. They still strike at the same time as the terminator sergeant, but will only do (30 * 3/4 to hit * 1/2 to wound * 1/6 unsaved) = 1.875 unsaved wounds, while taking about 1 wound from the T. Sergeant power sword and 5 more from the terminators (12 attacks * 1/2 to hit * 5/6 to wound, no saves). The following rounds would go to the terminators.

 

Add two more terminators and a heavy flamer to level up the points per unit, throw in Overwatch and that charge gives completely different results.

[Deadman Wade]

Overwatch from 6 stormbolters and one heavy flamer will kill one DC member at best, most likely none (or a wound to Chaplain). So if DC kill 4 terminators (without shooting), remaining 3 terminators will kill about 2-3 DC, less if one of survivors is sergeant. And Chaplain also will hit with Crozius and can tank power sword wounds.

IMO 10 DC with jump packs and three power axes will do better against terminators than 10 bp/ccw DC with chaplain. Even 5-man DC with axes and jump packs for 190pts will kill 5-man terminator squad without shooting or HoW hits.

I've played against Deathwing with my World Eaters about 20-30 times I think, and ten-man Berzerker squad consistently wiped 5-man terminators squads without taking any casualties.

DC is slightly worse than Berzerkers at killing loyalist terminators (without chaplains), but still do well.

[casb1965]

Overwatch from 6 stormbolters and one heavy flamer will kill one DC member at best, most likely none (or a wound to Chaplain). So if DC kill 4 terminators (without shooting), remaining 3 terminators will kill about 2-3 DC, less if one of survivors is sergeant. And Chaplain also will hit with Crozius and can tank power sword wounds.

IMO 10 DC with jump packs and three power axes will do better against terminators than 10 bp/ccw DC with chaplain. Even 5-man DC with axes and jump packs for 190pts will kill 5-man terminator squad without shooting or HoW hits.

I've played against Deathwing with my World Eaters about 20-30 times I think, and ten-man Berzerker squad consistently wiped 5-man terminators squads without taking any casualties.

DC is slightly worse than Berzerkers at killing loyalist terminators (without chaplains), but still do well.

 

I agree that DC are killers but all the previous arguments were pure theoretical situations allowing for no Overwatch and an unequal points cost for the troops.

 

If someone wants to Mathhammer 10 DC+Chaplain against 7 GKT with Falchions (+1A AP3) plus Force and Hammerhand cast (+2S) with Overwatch from 6 stormbolters and a Psycannon it'll be interesting to see how they match up.

 

I'd like to visit all alternatives as I'm thinking of adding BA Allies to my GK army :)

[Ushtarador]

 

 

If someone wants to Mathhammer 10 DC+Chaplain against 7 GKT with Falchions (+1A AP3) plus Force and Hammerhand cast (+2S) with Overwatch from 6 stormbolters and a Psycannon it'll be interesting to see how they match up.

 

DC will kill a little above 4 termies on average, the remaining 3 will kill almost 3 DC. Then the termies will probably outlast the DC, but it depends a lot on the armor saves, the 2+ leads to wild swings and average values are not that helpful.

 

However, in a game situation the DC should also have 2 powerfists and the chaplain will have a PF as well, so the termies will get wiped easily. ;)

[Remtek]

Rough estimates.

 

If you put 5 tactical termies (power fist) against 10 dc with no upgrades on either side:

 

Termies get the charge:

They wipe the DC in roughly 3 assault phases (1.5 turns) and termies loose 2-3 models.

 

 

DC get the charge:

They wipe termies in 3 assault phases (1.5 turns) and DC loose 2-3 models.

 

Edit: Forgot the termie sarge has a power weapon, though the result will be very similar. 

 

 

If you include shooting on both sides it looks very similar, termies will kill 1 dc pre assault while DC will get 0.5 termies pre assault. 

 

In a vacuum, DC are more effective. Upgrading both squads would generally be favorable to DC as well (ap2). Overwatch will help if you get lucky, but even with a flamer it usually won't have a huge impact.  Expect it to take 2-4 assault phases while the termies will loose slighly more points on avg.

 

AP3 termies will usually crush DC unless you are running IC's giving re-rolls.

 

Slightly off topic:

DC have much higher surviability per points for virually anything except for ap3 shooting

DC have a wider range of effective targets due to weight of numbers.

 

Exceptions:

GK termies are cheaper then stock tacticals and can get 4++ with Santuary making them far more surivable per point compared to other codecies.

 

Edit: Adding a chaplain will not help that much when you assault if you factor in the extra tax, wiping a squad in your own assault phase also has it's drawbacks. If you get assaulted the chaplain will have a negative value as he has minimal contribution, while increasing the cost of the unit by a lot.   Between adding a chaplain or more bodies the difference is fairly small. 

 

So in a strict unit vs unit you are better off adding 5 more DC instead of the chaplain. 

[DarthOvious]

If you get assaulted the chaplain will have a negative value as he has minimal contribution, while increasing the cost of the unit by a lot.

 

So in a strict unit vs unit you are better off adding 5 more DC instead of the chaplain. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean with the Chaplain here in regards to negative value. I thought even if you were charged you still got the re-rolls for the first round of combat.

[casb1965]

 

If you get assaulted the chaplain will have a negative value as he has minimal contribution, while increasing the cost of the unit by a lot.

 

So in a strict unit vs unit you are better off adding 5 more DC instead of the chaplain. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean with the Chaplain here in regards to negative value. I thought even if you were charged you still got the re-rolls for the first round of combat.

 

 

You're right Zealot gives rerolls in the first round of combat it doesn't say anything about "only when charging".

 

My next question is, is it worth giving DC jump packs to gain the extra mobility and Hammer of Wrath when charging?

[Remtek]

Brainfart on my behalf. I was thinking the old Liturgies. Your right zealot works both ways, so it's pretty much even in number of hits between adding more bodies or going with the chaplain. 50 attacks with re-rolls and 75 attack without rerolls will both give 37,5 hits + the bonus hits from the chaplain. But it's only for one round, so if you get assaulted having more bodies will do more dmg through the whole combat. 

[Remtek]

 

 

If you get assaulted the chaplain will have a negative value as he has minimal contribution, while increasing the cost of the unit by a lot.

 

So in a strict unit vs unit you are better off adding 5 more DC instead of the chaplain. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean with the Chaplain here in regards to negative value. I thought even if you were charged you still got the re-rolls for the first round of combat.

 

 

You're right Zealot gives rerolls in the first round of combat it doesn't say anything about "only when charging".

 

My next question is, is it worth giving DC jump packs to gain the extra mobility and Hammer of Wrath when charging?

 

 

I'd say yes due to the movement bonus, but the HoW bonus is pretty insignificant since your usually moving more then 6" to guarantee getting into close combat.  Even if you get HoW it's often hard to get many base to base. 

[casb1965]

Looks like I need to get some figures and painting then.

 

Is there any way to get DC as troop choices rather than Elite?

[Xenith]

Looks like I need to get some figures and painting then.

 

Is there any way to get DC as troop choices rather than Elite?

 

Raphen's death company from Deathstorm is a troop choice.

 

It doesnt really matter anyway, as they score as well as youre troops in a baal strike force, and you can take loads in a normal force org chart. 15 in each of 4 elite slots for 60 DC.

 

For a 340pt tax (2 priests, 4 scout squads) you can have 120 DC in 2x BSF detachments (2740 pts before upgrades)

[casb1965]

 

Looks like I need to get some figures and painting then.

 

Is there any way to get DC as troop choices rather than Elite?

 

Raphen's death company from Deathstorm is a troop choice.

 

It doesnt really matter anyway, as they score as well as youre troops in a baal strike force, and you can take loads in a normal force org chart. 15 in each of 4 elite slots for 60 DC.

 

For a 340pt tax (2 priests, 4 scout squads) you can have 120 DC in 2x BSF detachments (2740 pts before upgrades)

 

 

The reason I ask is i want to take BA as allies so need to take a troop choice, DC as troops works really well in that case. Now to find the dataslate for Raphaen's DeathStorm

[Bukimimaru]

t

 

 

Looks like I need to get some figures and painting then.

 

Is there any way to get DC as troop choices rather than Elite?

 

Raphen's death company from Deathstorm is a troop choice.

 

It doesnt really matter anyway, as they score as well as youre troops in a baal strike force, and you can take loads in a normal force org chart. 15 in each of 4 elite slots for 60 DC.

 

For a 340pt tax (2 priests, 4 scout squads) you can have 120 DC in 2x BSF detachments (2740 pts before upgrades)

 

 

The reason I ask is i want to take BA as allies so need to take a troop choice, DC as troops works really well in that case. Now to find the dataslate for Raphaen's DeathStorm

 

 

Raphens DC are massivly over costed and equipped in a really sub-optimal way. You cant add any more bodies to the 5 man unit and you can't change their loadout.

If you are dead set on taking DC as allies, I suggest the Strike Force Mortalis detachment from the Sheild of Baal book.

You dont get the +1 init, but you get Rampage and Crusader which I think are awesome (although many disagree).

[DominicJ]

Last edition, possibly fifth, pt for pt, DC with the charge kill termies before they strike

[DominicJ]

Its the same now

Charging bp/ccw DC cost 20 pts and cause about 18pts of dead terminator

 

Nothing survives that charge

 

That said, it goes a lot worse if they don't get the charge, they lose 40% of their attacks and 17% of their wounds, so nearly 50% of their actual damage.

Termies can stay at 18" and storm bolter them to death.

[DarthOvious]

 

 

If you get assaulted the chaplain will have a negative value as he has minimal contribution, while increasing the cost of the unit by a lot.

 

So in a strict unit vs unit you are better off adding 5 more DC instead of the chaplain. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean with the Chaplain here in regards to negative value. I thought even if you were charged you still got the re-rolls for the first round of combat.

 

 

You're right Zealot gives rerolls in the first round of combat it doesn't say anything about "only when charging".

 

My next question is, is it worth giving DC jump packs to gain the extra mobility and Hammer of Wrath when charging?

 

 

Absolutely, I've been missing my JP Death Company for a long time before the new codex came out. It's so much more reasonable points wise than it was before. Thing is I also being able to use Sanguinary Guard as well since they are also pointed better so I've been switching between them really in my games.

[DarthOvious]

 

Looks like I need to get some figures and painting then.

 

Is there any way to get DC as troop choices rather than Elite?

 

Raphen's death company from Deathstorm is a troop choice.

 

It doesnt really matter anyway, as they score as well as youre troops in a baal strike force, and you can take loads in a normal force org chart. 15 in each of 4 elite slots for 60 DC.

 

For a 340pt tax (2 priests, 4 scout squads) you can have 120 DC in 2x BSF detachments (2740 pts before upgrades)

 

 

That's sounds like a fun game. Just a whole mass of DC running across the field. You could use it as a representation of Signus in Fear to Tread and go up against Daemons.