Different cult units in one army?

[ShVagYeR]

I'm wondering, can you field Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers or Plague Marines and Noise Marines in a single detachment? I guess it could work with the BL supplement, but I mean a regular codex-CSM army. Fluff aside, is it allowed by the rules?

 

The other question is, how would you explain it fluff-wise, if rules allow it?

[Dragonlover]

Rules wise, totally fine. Fluff wise, there's a bunch of ways to explain it. Alliances between different warbands, members of the same warband going in different directions being the main two. There's also the 'remodel everything!' approach, so dudes with boarding shields are the Nurgle marked guys in a 'Khorne' army.

 

Dragonlover

[Excessus]

Yes you can field them in the same detachement, but remember that unless you have a HQ that makes them troops, they are elites as standard.

 

Fluff-wise you can explain it in a multitude of ways. Examples range from Black Legion army(who naturally has all four gods represented), Word Bearers with all their different faiths, or just mercenaries or a random renegade warband. The Thousand Sons would be the hardest, since they are, well, Thousand Sons, but there is no reason to say that a Thousand Sons sorcerer couldn't have defected to this warband or something...

[Kol Saresk]

I'm wondering, can you field Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers or Plague Marines and Noise Marines in a single detachment? I guess it could work with the BL supplement, but I mean a regular codex-CSM army. Fluff aside, is it allowed by the rules?

 

The other question is, how would you explain it fluff-wise, if rules allow it?

it is allowed by the rules and fluffwise is as easy as separate cults within the same warband or even several warbands that have simply decided to work together. The trick ruleswise is either they all have to share the elites slot, or if you Mark your warlord, then you have the troop slot for the corresponding unit and then you have your elite slot for another cult.

[ShVagYeR]

Thank you gentlemen.

 

Just had a quick read of the codex and it turns out that if I take Ahriman and Khârn, both Rubricae and Berzerkers can be taken as Troops. Awesome! :D

[Sception]

Rubicae and berzerkers make sense enough in the same army (and you can also get them both as troops by taking a generic tzeentch sorcerer and khorne lord), especially in a Black Legion army. Khorne worshippers are the most common among those Black Legionnaires dedicated to a single god due to the life of constant campaigning which both encourages Khorne worship and attracts those already dedicated to the blood god (many World Eaters ended up in the Black, whether as converts or mercenaries, after their Legion's organization dissolved, though their loyalty is split and when Angron calls only the most foolish of Black Legion warlords would refuse to let them answer). At the same time, Tzeentch worshippers, though fewer in number, occupy privileged positions within the Black Legion leadership, where Abaddon relies on their powers of divination to guide his legions activities. Several of Ahriman's coven of Thousand Sons sorcerers and their rubicae attendants ended up in the Black after their banishment, most notably Khayon, one of the Black Legion's founders.

 

While Khorne and Tzeentch have tensions, they are not diametrically opposed powers, like Khorne & Slaanesh or Tzeentch and Nurgle. As gods and daemons they do not respect each others' strengths, but their mortal followers are pragmatic enough to appreciate their complimentary abilities. After all, Without a hammer like that provided by the powers and followers of Khorne, all the trickery of Tzeentch would have difficulty finding victory on he battlefield, and while the Khornate might find sorcery distasteful, they can appreciate its necessity in finding and getting to he next battlefield, as well as its tactical applications once there.

 

So the combination of Khorne and Tzeentch, while perhaps not the 'peanutbutter/chocolate' mix of Khorne and Nurgle, still works and makes sense within the lore.

 

...

 

That said, an alliance between Ahriman and Khârn in particular is a little bit harder to justify, particularly as a long term thing. While they might work together for a battle or two, I don't really see these two characters being able to stand each other's presence for any extended period.

[hummus]

Yes you can field them in the same detachement, but remember that unless you have a HQ that makes them troops, they are elites as standard.

 

Fluff-wise you can explain it in a multitude of ways. Examples range from Black Legion army(who naturally has all four gods represented), Word Bearers with all their different faiths, or just mercenaries or a random renegade warband. The Thousand Sons would be the hardest, since they are, well, Thousand Sons, but there is no reason to say that a Thousand Sons sorcerer couldn't have defected to this warband or something...

 

Word bearers are traditionally chaos undivided

[Rain]

The only limitation is that a character with a Mark of Chaos cannot join a unit with a different Mark. You can however put an unmarked character into a marked squad, and Abaddon can join marked squads as per the FAQ (and common sense).

 

As for fluff, it really depends on the nature of your warband. Some, like the Black Legion have cults of all 4 gods as parts of the legion all working under a more or less common command structure, at least in the sense that they are all accountable to Abaddon, and would therefore fight side by side if Abaddon willed it. Others, like say Night Lords, don't worship Chaos themselves (though they are still affected by it) and would therefore probably only work as marked CSM as opposed to full on cult marines to represent unconsciously following the path of a given god without openly worshiping and devoting to that god. Full on cult choices can then be represented as mercenaries and allies of mutual benefit taken along for raids against an especially worthy foe.

 

The only circumstance in which I would consider certain choices really unfluffly would be if an army based around a cult legion contained units from an opposing cult (ie a World Eaters army with a squad of Noise Marines). I mean, this could still be explained, but it starts to strain credulity. Otherwise, Chaos is a very open canvas.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Yes you can field them in the same detachement, but remember that unless you have a HQ that makes them troops, they are elites as standard.

 

Fluff-wise you can explain it in a multitude of ways. Examples range from Black Legion army(who naturally has all four gods represented), Word Bearers with all their different faiths, or just mercenaries or a random renegade warband. The Thousand Sons would be the hardest, since they are, well, Thousand Sons, but there is no reason to say that a Thousand Sons sorcerer couldn't have defected to this warband or something...

Word bearers are traditionally chaos undivided

That's what Excessus said. Undivided, not unaligned.

[Dragonlover]

 

The only circumstance in which I would consider certain choices really unfluffly would be if an army based around a cult legion contained units from an opposing cult (ie a World Eaters army with a squad of Noise Marines). I mean, this could still be explained, but it starts to strain credulity. Otherwise, Chaos is a very open canvas.

Noise Marines in a Khorne army? Easy. A group of Berzerkers known as the Blood Howlers had their Butchers Nails wired into their vocal systems. Now every word they speak is loaded with unquantifiable rage, and at a sufficient volume they can break bones and pulp flesh with a shout.

 

I5 is explained by the sheer volume of them messing with their opponents heads and making them react slower.

 

Sure, its a touch rough and I'm not 100% sure how I'd model it, but it works well enough.

 

Dragonlover

[Sception]

Some people are fine with that sort of 'counts as'.  Others aren't.

 

I for one like the mechanics in the game to match up with the lore.  Mark of Slaanesh, to me, doesn't just mean '+1 init', it means dedication to slaanesh.  And there are all sorts of little fallout rules from that that would bother me too much to do that sort of counts as, myself.  Non-slaaneshi characters can't join such units, they get hit by anti-slaanesh results on the warp table, etc.  More than that, sonic weapons are special things within the lore, weapons unique to the noise marines, other groups just don't have weapons that do the same things.  For me, a themed army is as much about the units you choose not to field as it is about how you paint the models you do, and choosing not to field models with the mark of slaanesh is kind of the first thing I would personally commit to when playing a Khorne themed warband.

 

Now, if OP is fine with that sort of 'counts as', that's cool.  I wouldn't (and I don't think many who share my feelings would) complain about other players doing that sot of counts as with their own armies, so long as it's clear what everything counts as during the game.  But it may or may not be an acceptable solution for OP.

[Lucio]

This is one of the reasons I chose a warband rather than a Legion force, the various cult marines with the force are representing the different pressures placed on the warband as the Gods vie for the souls. As the force develops, eventually these will split out into mono-god forces, but this early on in their lifespan they're held together by the will of the warband's leader.
 

[ShVagYeR]

On one hand I like the idea of such explanation and the joyful kitbashing that would follow. :) On the other hand, this seems a bit far-fetched and like malisteen said, if I choose a Khorne army, Slaaneshi units are out of the question.

 

Thank you for all the replies, this has been both informative and fun. Unless I change my mind, I will run an army consisting of two forces under well known and loved characters Ahriman and Khârn. Sure they would not be best buddies, but both would probably realize each other's usefulness and they could have met during the Great Crusade. Let's just say Ahriman tricked Khârn and his followers to do his dirty work while he stays in the backfield spitting doombolts at whatever escapes the bloodbath. :)

 

Why? Because Ahriman and Khârn are both cool models and interesting characters in HH books. :)

[Dragonlover]

I have the same opinion, which is one of the reasons I'm doing nine armies as opposed to three or four. That and a lack of unified special rules across an army bugs me.

 

Also, Berzerkers of Tzeentch  is really hard to come up with a plausible logic for, so going your route is probably for the best.

 

Dragonlover

[Chaeron]

Many good memories of more mixed army selections - if you like it, roll with it. It's Chaos: it can always be justified.

[Hellios]

The ends justify the means: let the galaxy burn!

[Iron Skull Mask]

I don't think that neither rules nor fluff prohibit units dedictated to different gods in the same detachment. The warband theme allows you to bring together whatever you want. And when you want to dedicate your army to a certain theme you can still mark your marines the way you like. Thanks so much Dragon Lover for the idea of representing MoN with boarding shields! :D I probably won't do it, but I like the idea a lot. See, there is a huge difference between Noise Marines and marked CSM. If you want +1 I the latter will do, if you want sonic weapons chosse the former. Although I dedicated my army to a legion theme, I would never tell a new player to limit his possibilities by old daemonic animosities or fluff issues (at times olny made up by players). I mean, we're chaos after all.

[Carrack]

I have the same opinion, which is one of the reasons I'm doing nine armies as opposed to three or four. That and a lack of unified special rules across an army bugs me.

 

Also, Berzerkers of Tzeentch is really hard to come up with a plausible logic for, so going your route is probably for the best.

 

Dragonlover

Bezerkers of Tzentch ideas

1. Regular Zerkers ensorcelled to do the bidding of Tzentch

2. Techno-arcane implants that produce similar effects to the nails

3. Zerkers summoned from deep within the eye in a manner similar to daemon summoning

4. Zerkers kept in stasis or cages and unleashed on the battlefield like dogs of war

5. A Khorne Lord lost a duel, contest, or bet with a Tzentch Lord and had to pledge a few squads of his World Eaters to the winner for a hundred years.

 

Can any of these ideas work for you?

[hummus]

 

 

The only circumstance in which I would consider certain choices really unfluffly would be if an army based around a cult legion contained units from an opposing cult (ie a World Eaters army with a squad of Noise Marines). I mean, this could still be explained, but it starts to strain credulity. Otherwise, Chaos is a very open canvas.

Noise Marines in a Khorne army? Easy. A group of Berzerkers known as the Blood Howlers had their Butchers Nails wired into their vocal systems. Now every word they speak is loaded with unquantifiable rage, and at a sufficient volume they can break bones and pulp flesh with a shout.

 

I5 is explained by the sheer volume of them messing with their opponents heads and making them react slower.

 

Sure, its a touch rough and I'm not 100% sure how I'd model it, but it works well enough.

 

Dragonlover

 

+1 this is genius

[Rain]

As malisteen said, part of the the theme of a themed army is unit selection, not just modelling and paint scheme. Also, counts as is a very slippery slope in a game like this where what makes say a Blood Angel separate from a Thousand Son is a common understanding of the IP. WYSIWYG and the connection between lore and rules make this game work. Berzerkers are a unit, and Noise Marines are a unit, each unit has distinct stats in the crunch and distinct lore in the fluff. Yes you can stretch it and make up your own fluff, but at that point you might as well start using any model for any unit, and of course people do, which leads to all of the World Eaters armies using Space Wolf rules and other such nonsense.

 

This becomes quickly confusing and just feels cheesy, plus as malisteen said, there are all kinds of weird situations that crop up. A funny example of this was that I considered using a converted renegade apothecary model that I have as a Slaanesh FnP banner since Apothecaries give FnP just like the Slaanesh banner, and Red Corsairs certainly do still have Apothecaries. But then that means that the whole squad has to have MoS which isn't that big of a deal since the Corsairs harbor all sorts of Chaos cults, but it also means that if say Huron joins that squad he doesn't get the FnP because he lacks MoS, which kind of takes the lie to the whole "counts as" business.

 

The only place counts-as works in my mind is something like counting dual swords as dual lightning claws, really generic stuff that can't really be confused with any other unit and that doesn't have a bunch of other flavor rules attached or require convoluted explanations like "well these are the really LOUD berzerkers, and they throw their axes which counts as sonic blasters (and it ignores cover because they are darts champs at the local bar 3 years running) and they can only join other really loud berzerkers 'cause...".

[Iron Skull Mask]

I'm also a big friend of WYSIWYG, but that doesn't mean you can't paint up Zerkers and Noise Marines in the color scheme of one warband. There is a really big picture of a black legion force with all sorts of cult marines in one of the recent codices that shows this quite well. Also, there is no way to display vanilla csm with a certain mark, so you either have to tell your opponent prior to the game about your choice of marks, or use a marker like a banner or sth, which is also not perfect since each model bears its mark individually nowadays. So another possibility would be to model it in some kind of way. Sure you can use shoulder pads showing the mark, but you can just as well use other means like boarding shields for MoN for example, like Dragonlover suggested. Converting stuff is one of the reasons many people pick up chaos in the first place, and in my opinion conversions are something totally different from saying "that Forgefiend is an Imperial Knight now" or "these cultists are Noise Marines, but those cultists are Berserkers."

[Kol Saresk]

Well there is a shoulder pad of each Mark in a CSM box, so you could always just slap the mark on the champion and ta-daa(!), the Mark is shown.

[Sception]

I'm also a big friend of WYSIWYG, but that doesn't mean you can't paint up Zerkers and Noise Marines in the color scheme of one warband.

This is of course true. And I didn't mean by my post to suggest that it was inappropriate or bad practice to do counts as. So long as everything is visually clear, you can do whatever you want with your own army, and siege shield plague marines and the like can make for cool conversions. I just wanted to voice my own feelings on the use of counts as, particularly re: alignments, in my own army, as an alternative perspective to the quote I was responding to.

 

 

I do use some counts as, mostly for special characters. I have one homebrew character that I run as Huron, though he is fully wysiwyg w/ Huron's gear (claw/flamer, axe, familiar, etc). I'll probably convert a counts-as Khârn out of the new end times fantasy guy at some point as well. It's not like I think Counts-as is a bad thing, up until next weeks khorn book was announced I absolutely would have endorsed the use of the Space Wolf Book for World Eaters, for instance. It's just that I think unit selection should be a factor in army theme, especially for something like alignment.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Well there is a shoulder pad of each Mark in a CSM box, so you could always just slap the mark on the champion and ta-daa(!), the Mark is shown.

 

True, but like with an icon, what if the model is taken off the table? I mean, sure, you can absolutely find a way with your opponent so everyone knows about the marks of the units without conversions, but conversions are fun stuff and probably more clear. Decals are another option of course.

 

@ malisteen:

I absolutely see were you're coming from, as I play a legion themed force myself. So far I only used marks on Obliterators, and have not fielded any cult troops or special characters (but I plan on building a Huron myself). I just wanted to point out that there are noumerous possibilities to go about mixing and representing stuff without throwing fluff or wysiwyg out the window.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Why not just make your own warband