Questions about Black Legion background

[Sawtooth]

I'm starting a new Undivided army, which I've never done, and was thinking about going Black Legion. I've just read through the Codex but I'm not totally up to date on all the Black Library novels, and was hoping someone could clarify a few things. First, is the Black Legion proper only Chaos Marines? I get the idea that Abaddon accepts anyone who gives their loyalty, but to be considered an actual member of the Legion do you have to be Astartes? Does everyone else (Dark Mechanicus, fleet personal, etc) simply count as allies and servants but not actual members?

Second, Obliterators seem very mercenary now. Would they flat out not join the Legion? Abaddon doesn't seem the type to tolerate forces coming and going as they please.

Third, does the Black Legion have a particular Chapter they hate above the others? They never seemed to develop an arch enemy the way, say, Iron Warriors did with Imperial Fists.

And finally, what do you think of Abaddon as a villain these days? In years past I hadn't thought much of the Black Legion because Abaddon's old fluff made him seem...kind of ridiculous and stereotypical. It seems like a lot has been done to update him (the Black Crusades in particular are portrayed a lot more impressive and terrifying than the old days). I admit I haven't read The Talon of Horus yet, but I have high hopes.

[Son of Carnelian]

My understanding is that the Black Legion thinks of themselves as a successor to the legions of old. Sure, they have numberless support staff, some of whom they honor and respect like full members, but only Astartes are true members of the Black Legion. 

 

I'm sure some Obliterators have thrown themselves in wholeheartedly with the Black Legion. Remember, just because the Codex says one thing about a unit does not mean it applies to every one of those units, etc. Some, perhaps most, are mercenary. But you can have a group that have sworn loyalty to your warband or Chaos Lord specifically. Maybe as a bodyguard? 

 

The Black Legion are especially hated by the Blood Angels. The Black Legion themselves seem to hate all loyalists equally, but with a special distain for the successor Chapters of the Imperium. They refer to them as "thin-blooded." 

 

I recommend you read Talon of Horus. It's good, and might give you a bit more insight into the Black Legion's character as an organization. 

[Kol Saresk]

Obliterators have always been very mercenary, alongside the Raptors.

 

As far as membership, that has never truly been defined in the way you are asking but there multiple debates and beliefs. What makes the Black Legion so terrifying is that it is able to marshall such numbers and resources even though not all of those numbers belong to the Black Legion.

 

As for Talon of Horus, yes it is amazing but it won't tell you too much about the Black Legion since

the Black Legion doesn't exist yet at the time of the book.

 

 

And it isn't that the Black Crusades have been made more terrifying. In fact, many are the same stuff that has been pumped out since 3rd Edition, if not earlier. What has changed was before where everything was told from the Imperial side as being failed attempts to break out of the Eye, that bias has been dropped. So now we can actually look at things like where one crusade went from the Eye of Terror to the Maelstrom and back again and notice that only three of the Black Crusades actually end with the Imperium having a decisive victory where the rest are, he just went home.

 

So because of the change in perception, it seems "all of a sudden" that he is being portrayed in a better light when in reality, it is simply more unbiased.

[Sawtooth]

Thank you :) I admit that my interest in Obliterators is very personal, since they are pretty much my favorite Chaos thing ever conceived. I even own one of those really old models with the gun coming out of the mouth. I've always wanted to make a counts-as demon prince as some kind of mega-obliterator to lead an army, though my modeling skills aren't quite there yet.

[Rain]

Obliterators are their own cult, though they seem to join certain warbands and form associations with them, this is especially the case with the Iron Warriors who apparently invented the techno-virus and created the first Obliterators, many of whom stayed with the Legion. Given Abaddon's vast resources, I'm sure he has managed to convince plenty of Obliterators to serve him on what is essentially a permanent basis, and the Oblits in the codex are all painted in what appears to be a Black Legion color scheme.

 

Oh and as per the Black Legion supplement, Abaddon allows his various underlings to mostly do their own thing, they even fight each other, just like other Chaos warbands do, it's just that if he gives an order, he expects it to be followed, and if not, bad things happen. Most of the time however, he just allows them to act however they see fit, a process that he probably sees as weeding the weak out of his service, and allowing the strong to amass the power that they deserve, as long as they don't try to use it to challenge him.

 

Plus looking at it from a purely practical perspective, keeping track of all of the tens of thousands of Chaos Marines in his service at all times would be cumbersome to the point of nigh impossible, instead he just keeps track of his favored Chaos Lords, occasionally sending them on various quests or calling them all together for a Black Crusade.

 

As far as Abaddon as a villain, this is obviously subjective, but I think he's improved. But then I never thought he was that bad, the whole "Failbaddon" meme seemed to be a case of intentionally missing the point to me, as of course Chaos can't destroy the Imperium, just like the Imperium can't destroy Chaos, or the Tyrands, or the Tau, or whatever, or else we would have a fiasco like the current WFB End Times. Luckily ADB is writing his story now, so he's in good hands. ADB is mostly writing him as a kind of proud warrior king on the outside, and a really bitter and selfish murderer/megalomaniac on the inside. Though just like with Talos, most readers will probably misunderstand him as just another cliche antihero. Or maybe I'm just projecting. Who knows.

[Sception]

I'm starting a new Undivided army, which I've never done, and was thinking about going Black Legion. I've just read through the Codex but I'm not totally up to date on all the Black Library novels, and was hoping someone could clarify a few things. First, is the Black Legion proper only Chaos Marines? I get the idea that Abaddon accepts anyone who gives their loyalty, but to be considered an actual member of the Legion do you have to be Astartes? Does everyone else (Dark Mechanicus, fleet personal, etc) simply count as allies and servants but not actual members?

Like much concerning the Black Legion, this is nebulous and varies. The Black Legion certainly incorporates vast ranks of fleet personel, Dark Mechanicus attaches, and hordes of cultists and feral world chaos warriors into its fighting forces, and many or most of these would certainly consider themselves part of the Black Legion, while certainly recognizing their lower caste compared to the astartes. Whether individual astartes recognize them as such or consider them merely expendible slaves beneath contempt or notice is likely highly dependent on the astartes in question and the attitudes and leadership style of the warlord they serve.

 

Even among astartes, there are varying ranks and positions of privilege, with Heresy veterans, possessed, and cults (not just aligned cults, but terminator cults, raptor cults, etc) all potentially occupying higher casts within the legion than common astartes warriors, who in turn occupy positions above the 'oathbroken' - those who have earned the Despoilers displeasure through their failures and thus been abandoned by the chaos Powers. Oathbroken may be treated as no better than common cultists by other Black Legion astartes.

 

Note that being abandoned by the powers of chaos is a major point of weakness for Black Legion warriors. Chaos warbands in favor with the gods do not keep as many technicians, attendants, and medics as loyalist space marines. The power of chaos mends bones and heals wounds. Even damaged armor and weapons regrow like organic things. They may even rely on the supernatural to provide power and ammunition, with possessing spirits animating their armour instead of traditional power sources, and weapons enchanted to fire the warrior's distilled hatred rather than bullets. Without the blessings of chaos, such warriors find themselves without the tools, resources, or expertise needed to repair battlefield attrition.

 

For what it's worth, the warlord of my own homebrew warband was once among the oathbroken, after his prior warband, the Sons of the Eye, were crushed and absorbed by the Black. Treated as no better than common cultists, he embraced that roll, forged strong bonds of comradship with the human warriors that he and his fellow oathbroken were thrown into meat grinders and suicide missions with, and eventually honed his warriors into elite, battle hardened veterans which eventually gained Abaddon's favor and with it the returned blessing of the gods and a command of his own. But he remembers his time as oathbroken, and the astartes under his command are directed to treat the cultists that serve them with some modicum of respect, and he does consider them part of the legion, and has them swear legion oaths as an astartes would.

 

 

 

Second, Obliterators seem very mercenary now. Would they flat out not join the Legion? Abaddon doesn't seem the type to tolerate forces coming and going as they please.

Abaddon absolutely tolerates mercenary forces. The bulk of his Black Crusades are fought with the aid of non-black legion allies and mercenaries who join in for a share of the spoils, or in return for aid that Black Legion warbands offered leading up to the crusade.

 

Like any chaos legion, the Black Legion is dependent on good relations with the Dark Mechanicus to provide and maintain ships and war machines, and these relations come with Mechanicus attaches, including warpsmiths and obliterator cults. As the Black Legion is a very evangelical Legion - actively seeking and inviting conversion, many of these Mechanicus attendants likely end up as loyal to the Black as they are to the daemon forges they represent. Likewise, such alliances will entail Black Legion marines receiving training and 'upgrades' from the Dark Mechanicus, though such soldiers would likely return with equally split loyalties, and daemon-bound pacts not to reveal Dark Mech secrets branded to their neural tissues and augmentations.

 

But in short, yes, warpsmiths and obliterators absolutely make sense in a Black Legion warband, though they would likely hold themselves at a distance from the other astartes.

 

 

Third, does the Black Legion have a particular Chapter they hate above the others? They never seemed to develop an arch enemy the way, say, Iron Warriors did with Imperial Fists.

The closest would be the Blood Angels, though the hatred there is much more one sided. The Blood Angels loath the Black, and Abaddon above all, as he carries the weapon which slew their primarch into battle. Merely seeing the Talon of Horus can drive Blood Angels into the black rage. Beyond that, the Black Legion has visited several atrocities on the Blood Angels over the millenium, slaughtering their soldiers, assassinating their leaders, and even stealing large quantities of their geneseed. There are entire Black Legion warbands largely comprised of Chaos Marines made with stolen blood angels seed, and the Despoiler relishes opportunities to heap additional indignities upon the Sons of Sanguinius.

 

 

And finally, what do you think of Abaddon as a villain these days? In years past I hadn't thought much of the Black Legion because Abaddon's old fluff made him seem...kind of ridiculous and stereotypical.

He is still written that way too frequently. The Pandorax novel in particular stank of 'Failbaddon'. However, there has been a concerted effort of late put into turning that portrayal around. The Black Legion supplement (great for fluff, meh for rules) and the Talon of Horus (black library novel by ADB) in particular present a dramatically improved version of the character. Hopefully that version will become the norm in Abaddon's appearances, and we'll stop seeing Abaddumb the Doofus, who throws away his limited supply of astartes like they were nothing and murders his lieutenants for 'failures' that any competent commander would see as stunning successes (such as holding off superior enemy fleets for weeks, and retreating only after the arrival of overwhelming reinforcements, and even then with the majority of the chaos fleet intact).

 

Basically, read the supplement and Talon of Horus. Avoid Pandorax and basically any other appearance of the despoiler.

[incinerator950]

I would be happier if they'd stop trying to change Abbadon from failbbadon to Ezekyle Calgar the Antichrist.

 

Part of the appeal to him is having to build the greatest Marine force from broken glory and ash, not becoming another mary sue every author hardon writes in.

[Warsmith Aznable]

But he is canonically the 40k antichrist. Failbadon wasn't what he was supposed to be, but what he became in the minds of some players because of bad writing and bad comprehension combined.

[Rain]

He's hardly a Mary Sue, the bigger problem in my opinion is that he's just kind of bland. Just like the Black Legion at large, he doesn't have much character beyond hating the Imperium and wanting to burn it down so that he can rule the ashes. ADB will hopefully alleviate this a bit since he said in another thread that he will be introducing elements of Cthonian culture to Abaddon and the Black Legion at large, but currently he just feels like a generic Big Bad without any interesting character traits or cultural idiosyncrasies.

[BetterOffShred]

Abbadon is the only dude out there who has the favor of all four gods of Chaos.. That in my book means that he should be a Steam rolling juggernaut of unimaginable destruction.  The current rules for him are pretty good I'll admit, but it seems like all the authors have fun making him fail. 

 

I think he was the second model I bought for Chaos all those years ago..  Love him.   I don't even care about the old sculpt in metal.. He's a BA and hes the guy who brings the pain to the Imperium's door every time.  As for the black legion "Fluff"  I think it's basically an excuse to field every model GW sells in the line.  You can put anything you want in black legion and roll heavy.  

 

-Brett

[incinerator950]

But he is canonically the 40k antichrist. Failbadon wasn't what he was supposed to be, but what he became in the minds of some players because of bad writing and bad comprehension combined.

Cannonically the galaxy is supposed to be eaten by bugs and star gods are supposed to be rising. The greatest waaaghs are supposed to eventually form while the Warp is going to flood the matterium with demons. Lastly, the Emperor was supposed to be reborn and the Eldar were to birth a god of the dead to avenge their gods and race.

 

Yeah, how well that's gone.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

I don't have a clue what that's supposed to be arguing.

[Xenith]

 

But he is canonically the 40k antichrist. Failbadon wasn't what he was supposed to be, but what he became in the minds of some players because of bad writing and bad comprehension combined.

Cannonically the galaxy is supposed to be eaten by bugs and star gods are supposed to be rising. The greatest waaaghs are supposed to eventually form while the Warp is going to flood the matterium with demons. Lastly, the Emperor was supposed to be reborn and the Eldar were to birth a god of the dead to avenge their gods and race.

 

Yeah, how well that's gone.

 

 

Yes. All of that stuff is happening, but the only doom-bringer that the Imperium are really scared of is Abaddon. Waaghs? They can be handled. Nids? Meh.

 

Abbadon is the big bad.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

But he is canonically the 40k antichrist. Failbadon wasn't what he was supposed to be, but what he became in the minds of some players because of bad writing and bad comprehension combined.

Cannonically the galaxy is supposed to be eaten by bugs and star gods are supposed to be rising. The greatest waaaghs are supposed to eventually form while the Warp is going to flood the matterium with demons. Lastly, the Emperor was supposed to be reborn and the Eldar were to birth a god of the dead to avenge their gods and race.

 

Yeah, how well that's gone.

 

 

Incinerator, I find your lack of faith disturbing. There is no organized military power in the galaxy capable of rivalling and defeating the Imperium on a regular basis, save the Black Legion. Ghazaghkull has a single major conflict that he lost once and was fought to a draw the second time. The swarmlord is a yeti, occasionally sighted to troll the Ultramarines before he disappears amongst the Tyranid swarms once again. The Eldar? A nuisance like the Dark Eldar. The Tau? Even more inconsequential. 

 

Only Chaos truly strikes fear in the Imperium's heart. Only Abbaddon's name is treated as a curse throughout the Imperium, and a bad omen if spoken.

 

Abbaddon is a monster on the table, a close combat destroyer capable of singlehandedly slaughtering scores of marines before he takes a single wound. A leader of a thousand of the best fighters in the galaxy almost as old as the Imperium itself. He is no fool. The Imperium mocks him out of arrogance, not confidence. 

[Rain]

The Black Legion does not even come close to the full military power of the Imperium. Even Abaddon understands this, which is why his plan is to expand the Eye of Terror so that he can have an effectively infinite supply of daemons and benefit from all of the other trouble that comes with fighting in or near a warp anomaly. Abaddon is is also depending on the fact that the Imperium is spread over a wide territory and is defending itself against Necrons and Tyranids, as well as a massed Chaos invasion from the Maelstrom that is set to coincide with the 13th Black Crusade so as to draw forces away from the Cadian Gate.

[Sception]

Of course the Black Legion doesn't rival the Imperium. The Eye doesn't have nearly the resources that an entire galaxy spanning empire does, and its residents are forced to burn considerable effort just surviving against then environment of incarnate madness, and that's before you even get to internal conflicts. And chaos was driven into the eye as the losers of the heresy.

 

All the forces of the Eye together could not rival the Imperium in a straight battle, which is why any fiction that depicts any chaos forces attempting to bring exactly that sort of battle to the imperium is dumb and terrible, and yes, the Black Legion suffers this depiction more than most.

 

The threat of the modern Chaos Legions is in their superior focused power, and the strength of their refuge. The imperium has greater power overall, but it's spread across countless battlefields facing countless threats. Chaos, when marshaled together into a unified crusade (not just the Black Crusades of Abaddon, though he is the chaos lord most able to do so, and that has done so the most times), brings a terrifying hammer to bare on a very focused area. Individually, chaos marines are even more powerful than regular marines, bloated as they are with the supernatural power of the dark gods' favor. They are supplemented with tides of expendible daemons which, while limited in the duration they can function in the mortal world, can none the less last long enough to overwhelm a system and cause permanent damage before fading back into the warp.

 

When a chaos crusade slips the gate of Cadia, entire systems are lost forever, their local defenses insufficient to resist the targeted onslaught. Too late, word of the attack reaches the ears of the Terran lords, who are thrown into a panic at the prospect of the Great Enemy's return. This is the true strength of the chaos legions - the traumatic memory of the Heresy and the terror that their presences inflicts on the leaders of the Imperium, driving them to colossal overreaction. Armies and fleets are withdrawn from battlefields across the galaxy. Scores of marine chapters and Titan Legions are redirected from the far corners of the galactic empire and gathered into a colossal hammer to stop the threat of the crusade, but by the time that the Imperium's overwhelming power arrives, the forces of Chaos are already in withdrawl, having achieved their goals and not wishing to burn their far more limited resources in meat grinders against even those nearby Imperial forces that were first to reinforce the targeted systems. Only a rearguard of expendable cultists, already fading daemon hordes, and the greediest or least competent chaos warbands remain to be crushed by this overwhelming might. Abaddon has typically already retreated to the Eye laughing all the way.

 

And what is the result? Abbadon has picked up some valuable relic or forestalled some prophesy that might have stopped him in time, the warships of the Black Legion and their allies return to the eye weighed down with slaves and raw materials and precious stolen geneseed with which to make new chaos marines. Key imperial supply systems are damaged forever, undermining Imperial influence across entire sectors. And the massive armadas gathered by the panicked lords of Terra are wasted on dregs, while all the dozens of battlefields they abandoned are lost to orks, or tyranids, or tau. The Imperium proclaims another great victory against the traitors of the eye and pat themselves on the back, even as their control of the galaxy is undermined on a thousand fronts and the forces of chaos replenish their strength. And there's nothing the warriors of the Imperium can do about it, since they cannot take the fight into the Eye, where the power of the Gods is absolute.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

1) I think it's mostly Chaos Space Marines, but a lot of books about Abaddon mention him having High Ranking Daemons in his court.

 

2)I think Obliterators would be perfect for the Black Legion. Not everyone in th Black Legion, from my understanding at least, is with Abaddon 24/7. Generally they are left to their own devices until Abaddon calls on them.

 

3) I think they hate the Blood Angels, but they don't have a clear-cut rivalry like some of the other traitor legions do.

 

4) IMO, Abaddon to me is the 40K version of Tywin Lannister. He is a dynamic personality who can capture the hearts and minds of The Eye of Terror and has the clear vision needed to unite the Traitor Legions. He is also one of if not the most powerful non-God warrior in 40K and IMO, is in a class of his own in regards to fighting. But under his persona of Battle-King, He is devious and cunning. He schemed his way from rock bottom to the top of the food chain and even managed to pull one over on the Chaos Gods themselves. And, while a lot of his detractors think he is a meathead, he's actually a pretty good tactician. He managed to prosecute and effectively lead a war to cripple the Imperium and as of now is the only person to have taken the Imperium's full might on and won since Horus.

[Sheesh Mode]

Of course the Black Legion doesn't rival the Imperium. The Eye doesn't have nearly the resources that an entire galaxy spanning empire does, and its residents are forced to burn considerable effort just surviving against then environment of incarnate madness, and that's before you even get to internal conflicts. And chaos was driven into the eye as the losers of the heresy.

 

All the forces of the Eye together could not rival the Imperium in a straight battle, which is why any fiction that depicts any chaos forces attempting to bring exactly that sort of battle to the imperium is dumb and terrible, and yes, the Black Legion suffers this depiction more than most.

 

The threat of the modern Chaos Legions is in their superior focused power, and the strength of their refuge. The imperium has greater power overall, but it's spread across countless battlefields facing countless threats. Chaos, when marshaled together into a unified crusade (not just the Black Crusades of Abaddon, though he is the chaos lord most able to do so, and that has done so the most times), brings a terrifying hammer to bare on a very focused area. Individually, chaos marines are even more powerful than regular marines, bloated as they are with the supernatural power of the dark gods' favor. They are supplemented with tides of expendible daemons which, while limited in the duration they can function in the mortal world, can none the less last long enough to overwhelm a system and cause permanent damage before fading back into the warp.

 

When a chaos crusade slips the gate of Cadia, entire systems are lost forever, their local defenses insufficient to resist the targeted onslaught. Too late, word of the attack reaches the ears of the Terran lords, who are thrown into a panic at the prospect of the Great Enemy's return. This is the true strength of the chaos legions - the traumatic memory of the Heresy and the terror that their presences inflicts on the leaders of the Imperium, driving them to colossal overreaction. Armies and fleets are withdrawn from battlefields across the galaxy. Scores of marine chapters and Titan Legions are redirected from the far corners of the galactic empire and gathered into a colossal hammer to stop the threat of the crusade, but by the time that the Imperium's overwhelming power arrives, the forces of Chaos are already in withdrawl, having achieved their goals and not wishing to burn their far more limited resources in meat grinders against even those nearby Imperial forces that were first to reinforce the targeted systems. Only a rearguard of expendable cultists, already fading daemon hordes, and the greediest or least competent chaos warbands remain to be crushed by this overwhelming might. Abaddon has typically already retreated to the Eye laughing all the way.

 

And what is the result? Abbadon has picked up some valuable relic or forestalled some prophesy that might have stopped him in time, the warships of the Black Legion and their allies return to the eye weighed down with slaves and raw materials and precious stolen geneseed with which to make new chaos marines. Key imperial supply systems are damaged forever, undermining Imperial influence across entire sectors. And the massive armadas gathered by the panicked lords of Terra are wasted on dregs, while all the dozens of battlefields they abandoned are lost to orks, or tyranids, or tau. The Imperium proclaims another great victory against the traitors of the eye and pat themselves on the back, even as their control of the galaxy is undermined on a thousand fronts and the forces of chaos replenish their strength. And there's nothing the warriors of the Imperium can do about it, since they cannot take the fight into the Eye, where the power of the Gods is absolute.

 

It is good to have brothers who bare the Black. We do not need a Galaxy Spanning Empire to accomplish our goals, merely troops in the right place at the right time. 

[Captain Tezdal]

1) I think it's mostly Chaos Space Marines, but a lot of books about Abaddon mention him having High Ranking Daemons in his court.

2)I think Obliterators would be perfect for the Black Legion. Not everyone in th Black Legion, from my understanding at least, is with Abaddon 24/7. Generally they are left to their own devices until Abaddon calls on them.

3) I think they hate the Blood Angels, but they don't have a clear-cut rivalry like some of the other traitor legions do.

4) IMO, Abaddon to me is the 40K version of Tywin Lannister. He is a dynamic personality who can capture the hearts and minds of The Eye of Terror and has the clear vision needed to unite the Traitor Legions. He is also one of if not the most powerful non-God warrior in 40K and IMO, is in a class of his own in regards to fighting. But under his persona of Battle-King, He is devious and cunning. He schemed his way from rock bottom to the top of the food chain and even managed to pull one over on the Chaos Gods themselves. And, while a lot of his detractors think he is a meathead, he's actually a pretty good tactician. He managed to prosecute and effectively lead a war to cripple the Imperium and as of now is the only person to have taken the Imperium's full might on and won since Horus.

So the end of the 13th Black Crusade is going to involve a squat, a crossbow, and abbadon in the WC?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

1) I think it's mostly Chaos Space Marines, but a lot of books about Abaddon mention him having High Ranking Daemons in his court.

2)I think Obliterators would be perfect for the Black Legion. Not everyone in th Black Legion, from my understanding at least, is with Abaddon 24/7. Generally they are left to their own devices until Abaddon calls on them.

3) I think they hate the Blood Angels, but they don't have a clear-cut rivalry like some of the other traitor legions do.

4) IMO, Abaddon to me is the 40K version of Tywin Lannister. He is a dynamic personality who can capture the hearts and minds of The Eye of Terror and has the clear vision needed to unite the Traitor Legions. He is also one of if not the most powerful non-God warrior in 40K and IMO, is in a class of his own in regards to fighting. But under his persona of Battle-King, He is devious and cunning. He schemed his way from rock bottom to the top of the food chain and even managed to pull one over on the Chaos Gods themselves. And, while a lot of his detractors think he is a meathead, he's actually a pretty good tactician. He managed to prosecute and effectively lead a war to cripple the Imperium and as of now is the only person to have taken the Imperium's full might on and won since Horus.

So the end of the 13th Black Crusade is going to involve a squat, a crossbow, and abbadon in the WC?

Anything is possible...

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

Abbaddon is a monster on the table, a close combat destroyer capable of singlehandedly slaughtering scores of marines before he takes a single wound. A leader of a thousand of the best fighters in the galaxy almost as old as the Imperium itself. He is no fool. The Imperium mocks him out of arrogance, not confidence. 

 

 

Hey Spike-y boyz, new to the Dark Gods forum :p

 

I have a question about this statement... I used Abaddon recently in a sort of power level test to see who would actually be the strongest character on the table... Abaddon was bested by a Chapter Master with Burning Blade and Shield Eternal, a Chaos Lord with a Murder Sword on a Juggernaut of Khorne and majority of the others (including Ghazgkull) into a draw... but the point is, if you build a standard no name character right, then he becomes a match (or in some cases more than a match) to the fabled Warmaster.

 

For 265 pts. that's just not good enough... In the HH book, his customized armour comes with a 4++ save, with Tzeentch he should be 3++, he should have the Weapon Mastery rule as well, being able to divide his attacks and being able to use both of his weapons special rules in a turn of combat, the Talon's Bolt-weapon has become so much weaker as well... in the Heresy era it had S5 AP3 Assault and Twin-Linked. The Drach'nyen is another fabled weapon that really comes short in the crunch... it should be an AP1 sword with Instant Death since it can cut reality... for 265 pts. I would not even hesitate to say that he is 100% worth it if he had everything I just mentioned... but as he stands right now... I'd take the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut.

[Strazhakov]

Abbaddon is a monster on the table, a close combat destroyer capable of singlehandedly slaughtering scores of marines before he takes a single wound. A leader of a thousand of the best fighters in the galaxy almost as old as the Imperium itself. He is no fool. The Imperium mocks him out of arrogance, not confidence.

Hey Spike-y boyz, new to the Dark Gods forum

I have a question about this statement... I used Abaddon recently in a sort of power level test to see who would actually be the strongest character on the table... Abaddon was bested by a Chapter Master with Burning Blade and Shield Eternal, a Chaos Lord with a Murder Sword on a Juggernaut of Khorne and majority of the others (including Ghazgkull) into a draw... but the point is, if you build a standard no name character right, then he becomes a match (or in some cases more than a match) to the fabled Warmaster.

For 265 pts. that's just not good enough... In the HH book, his customized armour comes with a 4++ save, with Tzeentch he should be 3++, he should have the Weapon Mastery rule as well, being able to divide his attacks and being able to use both of his weapons special rules in a turn of combat, the Talon's Bolt-weapon has become so much weaker as well... in the Heresy era it had S5 AP3 Assault and Twin-Linked. The Drach'nyen is another fabled weapon that really comes short in the crunch... it should be an AP1 sword with Instant Death since it can cut reality... for 265 pts. I would not even hesitate to say that he is 100% worth it if he had everything I just mentioned... but as he stands right now... I'd take the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut.

Completely agree with you.

Abbadon should be much more powerful and expensive than he currently is. He killed friggin Sigismund in an honorable duel oh and also clone Horus but there he had support.

Never understood why they nerfed Drach'nyen to hell and that the Talon has different and much weaker rules in 40k never made any sense. It is probably the most iconic and powerful relic weapon in 40k and deserves better. Has any other weapon killed two Primarchs and mortally wounded a God?

Imho he should be at almost Primarch level stat and pts wise.

If/when we will get a 7th edition codex he will be a LoW as he should be but I fear his rules will still remain underwhelming.

[Rain]

The rules have never reflected the fluff. In fluff, a bolter is a .75 caliber automatic rocket launcher. In game, it fails to wound guys in flak jackets 1/3 of the time.

[Sheesh Mode]

Abbaddon is a monster on the table, a close combat destroyer capable of singlehandedly slaughtering scores of marines before he takes a single wound. A leader of a thousand of the best fighters in the galaxy almost as old as the Imperium itself. He is no fool. The Imperium mocks him out of arrogance, not confidence.

Hey Spike-y boyz, new to the Dark Gods forum

I have a question about this statement... I used Abaddon recently in a sort of power level test to see who would actually be the strongest character on the table... Abaddon was bested by a Chapter Master with Burning Blade and Shield Eternal, a Chaos Lord with a Murder Sword on a Juggernaut of Khorne and majority of the others (including Ghazgkull) into a draw... but the point is, if you build a standard no name character right, then he becomes a match (or in some cases more than a match) to the fabled Warmaster.

For 265 pts. that's just not good enough... In the HH book, his customized armour comes with a 4++ save, with Tzeentch he should be 3++, he should have the Weapon Mastery rule as well, being able to divide his attacks and being able to use both of his weapons special rules in a turn of combat, the Talon's Bolt-weapon has become so much weaker as well... in the Heresy era it had S5 AP3 Assault and Twin-Linked. The Drach'nyen is another fabled weapon that really comes short in the crunch... it should be an AP1 sword with Instant Death since it can cut reality... for 265 pts. I would not even hesitate to say that he is 100% worth it if he had everything I just mentioned... but as he stands right now... I'd take the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut.

Because all the marks are priced at full cost for his abilities, on top of his chaos lord stats, terminator armor, better weapon skill, and two unique close combat weapons. Against most kinds of character Abbaddon will win, and to my knowledge there is not a single character in the game who kills things dead quite as well as he does. Space Marines can endure him and beat him through attrition, some eldar lords are simply faster, but none are quite the same blend of smash he brings to the field.

Of course he is bad on the table, the 30k rules came out after the chaos codex, and until recently games workshop and forgeworld did not make strong parallels between their codexes. Hopefully this will change.