How do you run your stormraven?

[Prot]

Thanks for the magnetizing ideas guys. I'll definitely look into it. Right now I just have the shell put together... I *MIGHT* have to cut out the Ultramarine door on it though. Ugh

 

 

My raven is MM, Lascannon, Hurricane Bolters, and I run it empty.

It's main purpose is anti air and tank hunting.

For me the Hurricane bolters are mandatory. For 5 points over the price of a single power fist you get great anti infantry firepower. Because the Raven is fast it's easy to get close to some troops on an objective late game to thin them out...

 

Ishagu I know we've discussed this but how are you dividing up your firepower?

 

Plus in an army of Stormbolters and model count issues, wouldn't you rather have... an extra terminator?

 

I'm just asking, I don't know. It just feels... inneffecient and redundant on paper. You're putting anti-infantry on a tank hunter, within an army that is 'okay' at anti-infantry and 'horrible' at tank hunting...?

 

Is this Stormraven configured from your Ultramarine army? Or would you honestly play it this way with Grey Knights?

- Are you basically firing one bank using PotMS?

- How often do you actually get to shoot both of the banks at the same target?

 

Just curious how much value you're getting for this setup?

[Ishagu]

I have both my Ultra and GK Ravens configured the same.

 

It's a tank hunter/interceptor - Make no mistake, but when the game starts to wind down, and a few lowly infantry are guarding an objective, it's great to be able to fly across the table and shoot them with 12 twin linked bolter shots. It can go from tank hunter to late game trash sweeper.

 

Eldar warriors, Tau, Tyranids, Orks, Guardsmen, Cultists - sometimes those are the units that tip the battle late on. The Hurricane bolters are extra insurance :-)

[Zhukov]

Regarding Stormravens not being able to claim most objectives (the ones which are low to the ground): Correct, you can't. I've had this discussion a while ago. For the people who are saying it's against the spirit of the game to not allow it to claim: I find cheating to get an advantage, which it is if you insist it can claim, against the spirit of the game.

 

Regarding hurricane bolters: Frankly, I'm not even sure anymore. 30 points for potentially 12 TL S4 shots is really good value, it's just that you're not going to use it a lot I'm afraid. I played with it on a BA raven in the past and well, I don't know, it's really optional I guess.

[Ishagu]

Of course a Raven can claim an objective. If someone said otherwise I'd remove the perspex stand from the base.

If you'll throw that kind of play against me, I'll put it in hover, take the base off and place the whole model on the table, touching the objective.

 

++ EDIT. Flamebait removed. -t ++

[jeffersonian000]

I have both my Ultra and GK Ravens configured the same.

 

It's a tank hunter/interceptor - Make no mistake, but when the game starts to wind down, and a few lowly infantry are guarding an objective, it's great to be able to fly across the table and shoot them with 12 twin linked bolter shots. It can go from tank hunter to late game trash sweeper.

 

Eldar warriors, Tau, Tyranids, Orks, Guardsmen, Cultists - sometimes those are the units that tip the battle late on. The Hurricane bolters are extra insurance :-)

This is actually why I find the Missile Launcher so useful, the ability to switch to Frag for anti-infantry turns them into "Heavy Bolters", allowing me to skip the Hurricane "Bolters".

 

SJ

[Acebaur]

 

I have both my Ultra and GK Ravens configured the same.

 

It's a tank hunter/interceptor - Make no mistake, but when the game starts to wind down, and a few lowly infantry are guarding an objective, it's great to be able to fly across the table and shoot them with 12 twin linked bolter shots. It can go from tank hunter to late game trash sweeper.

 

Eldar warriors, Tau, Tyranids, Orks, Guardsmen, Cultists - sometimes those are the units that tip the battle late on. The Hurricane bolters are extra insurance :-)

This is actually why I find the Missile Launcher so useful, the ability to switch to Frag for anti-infantry turns them into "Heavy Bolters", allowing me to skip the Hurricane "Bolters".

 

SJ

 

 

I would hardly compare frag missiles to heavy bolters. But assuming you hit, they can be more deadly than Hurricanes.  However, the Hurricanes are better against weakened units because they will always have the same number of shots regardless of how many guys are left. 

[thade]

Disagreement is bound to happen, no harm in that. Tackle the idea, not the person that has it.

[Prot]

Regarding Stormravens not being able to claim most objectives (the ones which are low to the ground): Correct, you can't. I've had this discussion a while ago. For the people who are saying it's against the spirit of the game to not allow it to claim: I find cheating to get an advantage, which it is if you insist it can claim, against the spirit of the game.

 

Regarding hurricane bolters: Frankly, I'm not even sure anymore. 30 points for potentially 12 TL S4 shots is really good value, it's just that you're not going to use it a lot I'm afraid. I played with it on a BA raven in the past and well, I don't know, it's really optional I guess.

 

 

Of course a Raven can claim an objective. If someone said otherwise I'd remove the perspex stand from the base.

 

If you'll throw that kind of play against me, I'll put it in hover, take the base off and place the whole model on the table, touching the objective.

 

++ EDIT. Flamebait removed. -t ++

 

 

This has been brought up to me as well. We can't find anything that says a hovering flyer cannot hold. I think the argument comes from where the objective lies in relation to the flyer/acting as skimmer hull.

 

We have ruled that hovering skimmers are scoring objectives. The reality is there is no 'telescopic' stand and the flyer is indeed acting as a skimmer in hover mode, and skimmers as such can hold objectives.

 

So that's how we play it here.

[Zhukov]

If you play in places where you are allowed to put your flier on a different base/stand, then it could score if you place it lower. If you are obliged to put him on flying stand (as provided with the kit), then you can't score if the objective isn't within 3"of your hull.

 

If people play it differently, fine, I don't care lol, I'm just pointing out the rules as they are. I'm personally not interested in potentially cheating my way to victory, so will avoid modelling for advantage or changing the rules in a way that it fits my view of what the Stormraven is supposed to do.

[Acebaur]

Prot: definitely magnetize the raven. it's easy and then gives you the option of changes. I'll post some pics later on tonight. Also the nose guns don't need magnetizing at all. Mine fit in there nice and snug with just the base coat of paint to provide friction

[Deschenus Maximus]

If you play in places where you are allowed to put your flier on a different base/stand, then it could score if you place it lower. If you are obliged to put him on flying stand (as provided with the kit), then you can't score if the objective isn't within 3"of your hull.

 

If people play it differently, fine, I don't care lol, I'm just pointing out the rules as they are. I'm personally not interested in potentially cheating my way to victory, so will avoid modelling for advantage or changing the rules in a way that it fits my view of what the Stormraven is supposed to do.

 

Yep. Houseruling that a Flyer can capture objectives is just dandy, but one shouldn't be kidding themselves that it is anything but that: a houserule.

[Prot]

As long as everyone agrees. That's all that matters. When it came up the raw was difficult to conclude so by committy we went with what we felt was rai.

 

Just as a side note to this..

we have eliminated any grey area in this by simply making objective markers that stand a few inches off the ground. Also this gives flyer players less incentive to place their markers on higher ground since it becomes unnecessary.

[jeffersonian000]

Flyers shouldn't hold objectives, in my opinion, because they are flying and not on the ground holding. When they come out with rules for Flyers to land, my opinion will change. This is not to be confused with Flying Monstrous Creature (which I think think should have stayed Jump Infantry), that can already land via being grounded.

 

SJ

[Darkmagi]

Honestly as long as the flyer is in hover mode it can claim objectives.  In hover mode a flyer becomes a skimmer which can claim objectives... I think we are all in agreement that if a flyer is zooming it can't claim objectives.  However as skimmers are allowed to claim objectives then flyers in hover mode can claim objectives... its just RAW not RAI

[jeffersonian000]

Honestly as long as the flyer is in hover mode it can claim objectives. In hover mode a flyer becomes a skimmer which can claim objectives... I think we are all in agreement that if a flyer is zooming it can't claim objectives. However as skimmers are allowed to claim objectives then flyers in hover mode can claim objectives... its just RAW not RAI

Be that as it may, I stated my opinion, not RAW. Per RAW, a Flyer can only claim an objective via modeling or non-standard placement.

 

SJ

[Zhukov]

Honestly as long as the flyer is in hover mode it can claim objectives.  In hover mode a flyer becomes a skimmer which can claim objectives... I think we are all in agreement that if a flyer is zooming it can't claim objectives.  However as skimmers are allowed to claim objectives then flyers in hover mode can claim objectives... its just RAW not RAI

You can claim objectives, it's just that vehicle meassure from the hull (including skimmers), not from the base. If the distance between the hull and the objective is bigger than 3" you can't:

 

BRB, page 134, "Controlling objective markers": "You control an Objective Marker if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units........within 3" of it."

BRB, page 84, "Flyers and measuring": The base of a Flyer is effectively ignored, except for when (CC, (dis)embarking)"

BRB, page 89, "Skimmers and meassuring": However, distances are still meassured to and from the Skimmer's hull,......The base of a Skimmer is effectively ignored, except for when the Skimmer is being charged or Rammed,"

[Ishagu]

Does the flyer have to be on the base? I can simply take it away when I'm hovering. Helps with cover saves too :-P

 

And if it does have to be on the base, what's stopping me from modelling it glued to the base, omitting the clear plastic stand?

[Prot]

Flyers shouldn't hold objectives, in my opinion, because they are flying and not on the ground holding. When they come out with rules for Flyers to land, my opinion will change. This is not to be confused with Flying Monstrous Creature (which I think think should have stayed Jump Infantry), that can already land via being grounded.

 

SJ

 

I personally disagree with this statement just simply because a Flyer is a different animal in that it has two 'modes' (Not always, but some do) When you "Hover" it is literally treated like a skimmer. So if you say a flyer can -never- hold an objective, than you have to consider the implications to skimmers as well.

 

However, no matter what your personal beef is with machines that fly.... when they hover, they are indeed "scoring". So at the very least a hovering flyer can get line breaker for instance. Note the difference here between grabbing an objective, and being scoring. 

 

Further to that....

 

 

Honestly as long as the flyer is in hover mode it can claim objectives.  In hover mode a flyer becomes a skimmer which can claim objectives... I think we are all in agreement that if a flyer is zooming it can't claim objectives.  However as skimmers are allowed to claim objectives then flyers in hover mode can claim objectives... its just RAW not RAI

 

Your first line is partially true. But I do not believe it is as cut and dry as Zhukov states. There is no definition for measuring from a flyer to an objective. As he quotes, there are references to where you measure. BUT the references are not specifically to Flyers that Hover. They are to flyers for some things, and to skimmers for others.

 

As a result of GW just not coming straight and saying " A FLYER in Hover mode measures from the base for the purposes of claiming objectives" Or just flatly saying "You can't claim objectives with flyers - every." The following discussion inevitably happens.....

 

Does the flyer have to be on the base? I can simply take it away when I'm hovering. Helps with cover saves too :-P

 

And if it does have to be on the base, what's stopping me from modelling it glued to the base, omitting the clear plastic stand?

 

 

Which I think is perfectly legal or else you could not deploy a Blood Angel on a 32MM base could you? GW themselves advocate creativity in bases, and modeling.

 

SO forget the entire thing. Forget everything above, and arguing RAW vs RAI.... and use 3" Objectives. It solves the entire issue because we do know Hovering Flyers are Scoring. Not ObSec, but scoring.

 

If you look at the plastic objective flaggy things that GW sold, they work. If you put an objective on any second floor of a building, or rocky formation it works. But you can remove the whole debate by simply using higher Objective Markers. 

 

No need to alter bases, or argue RAW vs RAI. Unless of course for some reason you want to make it difficult for flyers or have this debate which has been happening pretty much since 7th came out.

[Acebaur]

Folks we are getting off topic here. We should return back to the topic at hand which is how to run them.

 

I want to include the hurricane bolters but I can never seem to find the points. I may have to though since it seems folks have definitely gotten value from them

[Prot]

I do think knowing if they score or not kind of does change how much you may want to invest in one.

 

Personally like I've said we've solved that problem but as you say the points are getting... big. I mean how close can you get to a landraider before you just say to heck with the Stormraven and the 'reserves' system and just go for a good ol Landraider?

 

I think the magnetizing idea is really good. I hope I can put it together as I'm imagining what you guys are saying. I just haven't decided between doing it up Ultra or GK. But I can still do the magnetizing part.

 

I foresee using it with Hurricanes in our massive battles, but otherwise I just think once it starts competing in the points realm of Landraiders... I dunno. Too many points?

[Aethernitas]

Not sure if you really need those Hurricanes. If you use it as Gunship hunting Infantry then it's ok I guess but I've found that my target priority with my Ravens goes something like: enemy flyer first followed by the most annoying or hard to reach enemy tanks. Heavy infantry is only third on the list and even against those the hurricanes are not really effective. I usually run it with twin-linked lascannon and twin-linked multimelter as those are ideal to hunt flyer and tanks. When my list demands it I add a locator beacon for the occasional melter/plasma squad I drop using the skies of fury special rule.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Never bother with the HB myself. At the end of the day, I can always find better use for those 30 pts.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The hurricanes really took a hit when we lost psybolts, as did the AC. The thing is though, the AC is still a great workhorse gun, but S4 shooting we already have in spades, so the hurricanes are a bit redundant. Especially for 30pts, when we're trying to scrape together every last point we have for upgrades elsewhere. 

[Ishagu]

I'm not sure what you're finding in the book that's better for 30 points...

[Emicus]

Three Daemon hammer upgrades? An NDK personal teleporter? 85.7% of a Heavy Psycannon? I'm not sure

​30 points for 12 bolters, rerolling does certainly sound good, however if you can't come in turn 1, then spend 1-2-3 turns shooting vehicles with the main weapons making the sponsons moot, is it worth 30 points for a turn or two of bolter fire? If the raven even survives that long?

 

Very interesting discussion :)