Submarine Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 There is some confusion and contention in our gaming group about the way cover saves are applied. The rules state that a normal cover save is 5+ unless separate rules exist for individual pieces of terrain. For example, ruins state you get a 4+ cover save as long as you are in the ruin. What is the cover save for being behind or obscured by a ruin but not actually in it? Some batreps I have seen play it as 4+ but others dont. We are split as to what the ruling is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The wording of cover saves (page 37) and Ruins (page 108) would suggest that a model in a Ruin gains a 4+ cover save, while a model obscured by an intervening Ruin gains a 5+ cover save. Where the confusion comes in is that in 6th edition the cover save granted by being obscured was determined by the type of cover doing the obscuring (5+ for a Wood, 4+ for a Ruin etc.) However, in 7th edition, unless the terrain piece has the rule stating "a model taking cover behind a... gains a X+ Cover Save," then the cover save for being obscured is a 5+. So the rules have changed, but often times people continue to play "the way they always used to" rather than actually noting the differences in wording of the new rules and actually playing by strict RAW. What is interesting is that Walls are stated to grant obscured models a 4+ cover save (on page 109), so one could make the argument that the Walls that make up a Ruin would confer a cover save of 4+ to obscured models. However: Strict RAW: A model obscured by a Ruin may gain a 5+ Cover Save, while a model within a Ruin may gain a 4+ Cover save regardless of whether it's obscured or not. If a model is both obscured by, and within, a Ruin then you would take the best save available (in that case, the 4+ Cover Save is the best Cover Save available to the model). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/#findComment-3984437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Shine Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yep, as Dam13n says, models obscured by but not in ruins take the standard 5+ cover save. I don't think you could make the argument for walls of ruins granting a 4+ unless you define the terrain feature as both ruins and walls, in which case there is agreement and no argument necessary ;) If it helps to make more sense I think you could imagine that a model in a ruin is better able to duck below or to the side and into scattered debris/fallen walls etc. while a model obscured beyond the ruin has less opportunity to take cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/#findComment-3984605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yeah. This is what I think too. Problem is that in the rulebook there are two photographic examples whose wording contradicts the generic rule. One is of orks. It says something like because the orks are obscured by the ruin they get a 4+ Save. In the diagram the orks are in the ruin but the wording is different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/#findComment-3984710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Yeah. This is what I think too. Problem is that in the rulebook there are two photographic examples whose wording contradicts the generic rule. One is of orks. It says something like because the orks are obscured by the ruin they get a 4+ Save. In the diagram the orks are in the ruin but the wording is different. Are you talking about the diagram on pg 37? That's just an example not actual rules. The actual rules say "Unless specified otherwise models in cover receive a 5+ cover save" It then refers you to page 105 for terrain that provides different saves. Turning to that section under Ruins it says "Models in ruins..." Nothing about behind it. so they get a 5+ if they are not in the piece itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/#findComment-3985706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Submarine Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 I am looking at the section on cover saves in the shooting chapter. In the picture of the orks being shot at by the space marines, it says the orks circled in red have a 4+ cover save because their at least one firing model in the space marine unit's line of sight is obscured by the ruin. In the diagram the orks are in the ruin but the wording implies that you get a 4+ save if the line of sight to you is obscured by the ruin. A similar photo in the vehicle section shows a rhino with 25% obscured by the ruin and again this grants a 4+ cover save to the rhino from the ruin. I totally agree with you that the wording of the specific rule is clear, but these photos and their legends do confuse the issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/#findComment-3985879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I think the answer is in page 109, under barricades and walls. I think this paragraph answers the "unless specified otherwise" part of the 25% obscured rule in pg 37 & 108. And it only makes sence that it would also grand a 4+ cover IMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304979-cover-save-rules/#findComment-3988407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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