Halberds?

[landoro]

So getting back into it, bought the codex this weekend and wondering on the Halberds? Are they worth taking with hammerhand already boosting strenght?

I dont really like the look of them and would rather have falchions or swords but with the Initiative boost they used to have they were to good to miss out.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nope. +1 Strength is never going to matter. If you're worried about not wounding, take a few hammers instead. 1 per 5 is the general rule of thumb. 

[Emicus]

Hammer handing to S6 anyway, haven't felt a need for S7 when you run s10 on the hammers. S5 base costing points for the upgrade, well, what are psychic dice for? I have not tried falchions yet thought, just 4 points a model but at the same time have this idea of running the squads "cheap" (Oh the irony with an elite army) so I can get more boots on the table. Definitely on my short bucket list of things to try out though!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Honestly, Termies function fine with a hammer and a psycannon. They don't need falchions. Loading them down with other upgrades just inflates their cost, it doesn't make them that much better. Often, by keeping upgrades to just the mandatory, you can afford more Termies. 33pts isn't much, neither is 165 for the base 5-man squad. 

[Rurik the blessed]

In the begining i found halberds very downgraded, but in the play time  they are very useful, specially when you need to cast "Force". it's anoying to try Insta killing things with S4 on a regular 4+

 

1 point of strenght really do a great difference.

[Arebennian]

This thread might be handy...

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/625698.page

[calvin the wraithlord]

I run them from time to time, simply because power dice even in a army like ours are not infinite and i like being able to pop AV10/11 on the charge with my basic troop choice there cheap and i think that in the long run they make there points back and in an army with such a low model count surely thats very important? i think its completely dependent on your play style and your opponent

[jeffersonian000]

The issue with Halbeds is that S6 Falchions out perform them on most things, while S8 Hammers out perform them on the rest. And if you are saving points, S6 Swords are still fine while 1 Hammer per 5 models is still a must, making the Halberd a little too little to be useful. I can see one on Justicars, but Falchions would still be better.

 

SJ

[Deamon Wolf]

love the halberds and at such a cheep cost they are a nice boost to our Justicars for challenges especially if HH dosnt get off

[Captain Coolpants]

Last edition my everything had helberds, but this edition it's allll about falchions. Someone did a mathhammer on here a while back, and the extra attacks statistically caused more wounds than helberds with and without hammerhand up till toughness 7 I think? But if you're fighting toughness that high, it worked out miles better to use hammers.

[Adeptus]

I always take a couple since it gives me options.

[Arebennian]

Care of Sir Arun, seeing as no one really seemed to open the link and see his breakdown

 

 

The funny thing is that in the new codex, each weapon is priced perfectly. More killing power = more points. 

Falchions > Halberd > Sword 

All of them are AP3, so youre just looking at additional killyness and yes, math says +1 attack is better than +1 Strength for your attacks 

basic math: 

Grey Knight Strike Squad member vs. enemy tactical marine 

1 base attack on WS4 vs WS4 = 50% change of hitting, then S4 vs T4 = 50% chance of wounding 

So 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 hits; 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 AP3 wounds 

With Halberd: 

1 * 0.5 = 0.5 hits; 0.5 * 0.66 (because halberds wound marines on 3+, which is 66.6%) = 0.33 AP3 wounds 

With Falchions instead: 

2 * 0.5 = 1 hit; 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 AP3 wounds. 

As you can see, the extra killing power gained from the falchion is so high that the jump from halberd to falchion is greater than the jump from sword to halberd, this making the falchion more worth the extra 2 points over the halberd than the halberd's extra 2 points over the sword. 

So this was the basic comparison. When you factor in Grey Knights that come with 2 attacks base, then the halberd granting +1S on both attacks trims the advantage of the falchions over the halberds somewhat, and expands the advantage of the halberds over the swords. 

E.g: 

Grey Knight Purifier Squad member vs. enemy tactical marine 

2 base attacks on WS4 vs WS4 = 50% change of hitting, then S4 vs T4 = 50% chance of wounding 

So 2 * 0.5 = 1 hit; 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 AP3 wounds 

With Halberd: 

2 * 0.5 = 1 hit; 1 * 0.66 (because halberds wound marines on 3+, which is 66.6%) = 0.66 AP3 wounds 

With Falchions instead: 

3 * 0.5 = 1.5 hits; 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 AP3 wounds. 

Factor in the extra attack gained by charging, and that advantage becomes even slimmer. 

E.g: 

Grey Knight Terminator Squad member who charged vs. enemy tactical marine 

3 base attacks on WS4 vs WS4 = 50% change of hitting, then S4 vs T4 = 50% chance of wounding 

So 3 * 0.5 = 1.5 hits; 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 AP3 wounds 

With Halberd: 

3 * 0.5 = 1.5 hits; 1.5 * 0.66 (because halberds wound marines on 3+, which is 66.6%) = 1 AP3 wounds 

With Falchions instead: 

4 * 0.5 = 2 hits; 2 * 0.5 = 1 AP3 wounds. 

As you can see, for units that come with 2 attacks base, Halberds do more for 2 points than Falchions do for their additional 2 over the Halberds. When these units charge, the Falchions end up doing nothing over the halberds on the turn they charge. 


However, on the other hand Falchions work well with Hammerhand, while Halberds do not benefit from it at all, unless youre fighting a monstrous creature.

[Captain Coolpants]

www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295728-gk-terminators-halberds-or-falchions/?fromsearch=1

 

This link from here a few months back, seems to think that falchions are better. Not helberds.

[Rurik the blessed]

I did the math hammer here : http://www.mathhammer40k.com/melee/infantry

 

and results are exactly the same against power armor

 

5 Terminators with halberd  : 5 average wounds

5 Terminators with falchions  : 5 average wounds

 

casting Hammer Hand, improves falchions over halberd

 

5 Terminators with halberd (hammer hand) : 6.25 average wounds

5 Terminators with falchions (hammer hand) : 8.33 average wound

 

 

so, yes... i think if you're not fighting multi wounds enemies, the falchions are better choice.

[Zembar]

They cost twice as much though..

[Rurik the blessed]

They only cost the same as a hammer... Ii think you could max falchions and dispose the hammer,

or use halberds and take the hammer, is up to you...

 

 

as i said before, it will depend of what kind of enemy you will fight, if you want to IK, then take halberds.

[jeffersonian000]

1 Hammer per 5, Swords are find on the rest unless you have points to spend, then its Falchions over Halberds. On TDA, I go 2 Hammers per 5, but that's just me. The only Halberd I find useful is the Soulglaive, for obvious reasons, yet I rarely take that Relic.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Falchions cost twice as much because theyr'e actually good, and they scale well with our powers. More attacks mean more chances to hit and wound, and thus more saves. You also have to consider not just 'Hammerhand', but also 'Force'. 'Force' is a game-changing ability in melee, and if that extra attack is the one that gets through, its clutch. +1 Strength is kinda never going to pay off. S6 wounds most things short of Ogryns or Centurions on a 2+, even then on a 3+. Against MC's its normally a 4+. S7 (ie 'Hammerhand' and halberd bonus) is not really that great, as it will rarely beat having an extra attack at S6. 

 

One of our biggest issues on our infantry is attack output. We hit like trucks, but we only have a few attacks per unit because they're generally 5-man squads. If you find yourself getting drowned in cheap tarpits, falchions will bail you out faster. 

 

Another thing to consider is 'Prescience', our premier Blessing power that we almost always have available. 'Prescience' is exponentially better the more attacks you are re-rolling, hence why it's so good with our shooting (which is storm bolter and psycannon, both of which have a lot of shots). In melee, same thing applies. Falchions will give you more attacks normally, and more oppertunities to re-roll. The only time halberds are getting a re-roll to wound is against Daemons, which is no longer a rare matchup, but it's still situational. 

 

Finally, if hurting things is an issue, hammers get the job done and ignore 2+ saves as well. They also kill vehicles very reliably, something that even at S6/7 we can whiff. 

[Quozzo]

They cost twice as much though..

So the question is... are two halberds better than one falchion? Intersting as an extra 2 points isn't hard to find. I regularly have up to 90 points to try and spend as I can't get another squad for that. I don't have the time right now but I'll get around to it eventually, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Rurik the blessed]

Well, i did the maths

 

Two halberds against 1 falchion (and a sword i assume) are better.

 

 

2x halberds against Power armor : 6 Attacks => 3 hits -> 2 wounds

1 falchion and a sword against power armor : 7 attacks => 3.5 hits -> 1.75 wounds

 

 

 

now, casting hammer hand.. improves falchions a little better.

 

*Hammer hand activated

2x halberds against Power armor : 6 Attacks => 3 hits -> 2.5 wounds

1 falchion and a sword against power armor : 7 attacks => 3.5 hits -> 2.917 wounds

[Prot]

 

Care of Sir Arun, seeing as no one really seemed to open the link and see his breakdown

 

 

The funny thing is that in the new codex, each weapon is priced perfectly. More killing power = more points. 

 

Falchions > Halberd > Sword  / SNIP 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually did read that breakdown but like all things math-hammer I hate them because nothing imo beats experience. Math hammer is always a utopian make believe land of ideal circumstance. I find it fails me more than my gut instinct does...

 

That being said who doesn't have a couple of measily points to burn in a list now and then? What about arguably the bane of Grey Knights - armour? I actually keep my LIbby's with Staves for this reason. A Hammer is fantastic, but what if I lose it due to crafty firing? I like the Halbred +1 + Hammerhand alternative.

 

I fail Hammerhand and am hit by a squad of bikes? I need one bloody wound to get force off and kill that bloody Mega Armoured warboss with FnP? I'd take a Halbred without hammerhand *but with force* in this situation. Purely because I say so. lol Purely because I'd rather have one good shot at smoking something off the planet, than a few minor shots. It's just the way I roll.

 

At the end of the day it's moot because every list I make has room for one or two. The only 'must' take situation for me is quickly becoming twin-Falcions on Justicars. 

[Quozzo]

Well, i did the maths

 

Two halberds against 1 falchion (and a sword i assume) are better.

 

 

2x halberds against Power armor : 6 Attacks => 3 hits -> 2 wounds

1 falchion and a sword against power armor : 7 attacks => 3.5 hits -> 1.75 wounds

 

 

 

now, casting hammer hand.. improves falchions a little better.

 

*Hammer hand activated

2x halberds against Power armor : 6 Attacks => 3 hits -> 2.5 wounds

1 falchion and a sword against power armor : 7 attacks => 3.5 hits -> 2.917 wounds

I'm confused. I was wondering if two models with halberds are better than one model with falchions, as two halberds cost the same as one falchion.

[Rurik the blessed]

 

Well, i did the maths

 

Two halberds against 1 falchion (and a sword i assume) are better.

 

 

2x halberds against Power armor : 6 Attacks => 3 hits -> 2 wounds

1 falchion and a sword against power armor : 7 attacks => 3.5 hits -> 1.75 wounds

 

 

 

now, casting hammer hand.. improves falchions a little better.

 

*Hammer hand activated

2x halberds against Power armor : 6 Attacks => 3 hits -> 2.5 wounds

1 falchion and a sword against power armor : 7 attacks => 3.5 hits -> 2.917 wounds

I'm confused. I was wondering if two models with halberds are better than one model with falchions, as two halberds cost the same as one falchion.

 

 

well. you can't compare two models vs single one , we are looking for cost / efficiency... if you buy the falchion ( it cost twice the halberd) we assume the other model get's his default weapon ( a sword).

[Quozzo]

That's a good point. I had never considered that.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

That being said who doesn't have a couple of measily points to burn in a list now and then? What about arguably the bane of Grey Knights - armour? I actually keep my LIbby's with Staves for this reason. A Hammer is fantastic, but what if I lose it due to crafty firing? I like the Halbred +1 + Hammerhand alternative.

 

Our bane is actually Riptides, but I digress. Against vehicles, we have our workhorse the psycannon, and in melee we have hammers. Yes, the Libby can hit S8 at Initative with his stave, but AP4 and his pathetic statline hold him back from being an actual melee threat. If vehicles are giving you problems, you know to take hammers next time. S5/7 AP3 is worse than S8/10 AP2. 

I fail Hammerhand and am hit by a squad of bikes? I need one bloody wound to get force off and kill that bloody Mega Armoured warboss with FnP? I'd take a Halbred without hammerhand *but with force* in this situation. Purely because I say so. lol Purely because I'd rather have one good shot at smoking something off the planet, than a few minor shots. It's just the way I roll.

 

Well Bikes suck in melee, so they just die slower (which actually benefits you, as you stay in combat during the enemy Shooting phase). If you're fighting MANZ, halberds don't do anything, because they're AP3. Again, hammers are better in every measurable way. Again, halberds make no appreciable difference in either scenario. 

The only 'must' take situation for me is quickly becoming twin-Falcions on Justicars. 

 

I don't fight a lot of challenges, but if you do, that probably is a good idea. He's one of the better Sarges in the game, very few other squad leaders are going to kill you.