Does anybody here play 4+ Dreadknights competitively?

[Zhukov]

As the title says, does anybody play with more than 3 Dreadknights competitively? How does it fare? Does it just make matchups more skewed (winning harder, losing harder)?

 

Basicly, taking a Grey Knights CAD + Strike Force is legal in pretty much any tournament, as it's 2 detachments, no Lords of War or any other stuff people sometimes like to ban out.

 

As example:

 

Grey Knights CAD

Librarian 110

5 Terminators; Psycannon, Daemonhammer 195

5 Terminators; Psycannon, Daemonhammer 195

Dreadknight; Teleporter, Incinerator, Psycannon, Sword 225

Dreadknight; Teleporter, Incinerator, Psycannon, Sword 225

Dreadknight; Teleporter, Incinerator, Psycannon, Sword 225

 

Nemesis Strike Force

Librarian 110

5 Grey Knights; Incinerator 115

Dreadknight; Teleporter, Psilencer, Psycannon 225

Dreadknight; Teleporter, Psilencer, Psycannon 225

 

Total: 1850

 

Basicly, I never hear anybody speaking about this, why is that? Surely it can't be that bad?

 

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No it's probably our only pure build that doesn't suck. That's exactly the list I would run if I played competitively. 

 

Your main issues are AP2 skew. If they bring enough plasma or whatever, you can potentially lose half your army Turn 1/2. 

 

That said, DK's are pretty annoying, and if you spam 'Sanctuary' its likely enough will make it into melee to begin the slaughter. Once they're in melee they are pretty much unstoppable. I only play 2 normally and they routinely eat 2-3 units each before dying. Meaning, whole squads apiece. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm only three NDKs short.

 

It really depends if my opponents don't mind me subbing in Raven/Valk Oval Basses for more NDKs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I just finished assembling my fourth properly (he's been armless for a while, too much real life). They do take a while lol. 

[Emicus]

*grumbles* Kit is awful to put together, the sheer tenacity of putting together 4.. and the wailing and gnashing of teeth I'll hear at the FLGS would be heard miles away, haha.

[Rurik the blessed]

Great list!. I like the idea, but... i think the opponent would cry blood tears when it sees 5 of them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eh, I weep blood when I fight Necrons or Tau. You learn to live with it. 

[Prot]

Obviously I don't even own 4, never mind 3.

 

But on the outside looking in, the very premise of taking 4 reminds me of old school power listing.... and this makes me think of winning big and losing big.

 

When I first started putting together my initial investment into the army there was a lot of calls for me to just grab 3 of them, and I guess I still could but honestly in a heavy Maelstrom environment, or tournament which heavily mimics that mechanic, I think you're in trouble before the first dice rolls.

 

Aside from giving yourself a chance to win in any condition, what about army types that really are stacked against elite style, small model count lists? For instance, how would this 4 DK list fair against:

 

- Poison armies: Dark Eldar

- Parking lot IG

- Wave Serpent Spam

- Newcrons and Gauss

- Heavy centurion lists

 

In each of those cases, I'd think having 4 expensive models would put you at the disadvantage.

 

I am curious if anyone's taken it to a competitive environment and if it actually worked throughout a mutli-game test.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Heavy centurion lists

 

*BAMPH* up to them.  The Grav Cents would probably pwn a Squad (or Two if using the Slpit Fire wargear), depending on Sanctuary I Saves.

 

Then they get utterly eaten in CC by the remaining NDKs who go Om nom nom on them with ID S10 hits.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Poison armies: Dark Eldar

 

Nope. Why would we care? Oh noes, you wound me on 4's. I have a 2+ armour save, don't care. Lance spam is what would eat DK's alive, which is the only thing DE do which scares us (that and their need for speed). 

Parking lot IG

 

Which has been ded for two editions now. IG get by with Air Cav and weird ground lists these days, mainly with Russes for their mech component. They also tend to Ally Knight-Titans, like most Imperial armies. 

Wave Serpent Spam

 

If you only took 2? Sure. But once you have 4, there is no way they can kill enough before you hit melee. Once you start eating Serpents, they rapidly lose firepower. They do have Dragons and Wraith D-flamers though, which is annoying. But I'd throw down all the same. They only have their shooting phase, if you hit melee they evaporate. 

Newcrons and Gauss

 

Gauss doesn't do anything. Oh noes, mass bolter fire. Again, 2+ save and multiple wounds means their odds of doing anything are pretty close to zero. I've had 40+ Warriors unload into a single DK and do nothing. Plus Overwatch. T6 and 2+ save is legit, ask Riptides. One of the few weaknesses for Necrons is their distinct lack of AP2. They kill tanks with gauss, and they eat MC's and assault units with Wraiths. Without Wraiths, I'd say we'd have a fair chance. With Wraiths...urgh, it's mostly a pillow fight until one side rolls badly for saves. 

Heavy centurion lists

 

Which doesn't exist. The only build you see is a single Dev Centurion blob packing grav, with an attached psyker (usually Tiggy/Loth or more recently our Draigo). They can only kill 1 DK per turn at best, at which point, as GML points out, the others just hug them to death. 

 

In each of those cases, I'd think having 4 expensive models would put you at the disadvantage.

 

 

No more than throwing down a bunch of Terminators, watching them do nothing in the shooting phase, and then get eaten by massed fire. 

[Prot]

 

Heavy centurion lists

 

*BAMPH* up to them.  The Grav Cents would probably pwn a Squad (or Two if using the Slpit Fire wargear), depending on Sanctuary I Saves.

 

Then they get utterly eaten in CC by the remaining NDKs who go Om nom nom on them with ID S10 hits.

 

 

- Tigurius will be rolling on Invis. If you don't cancel it, it won't be as easy as this.... Plus 4 DK's is a very sizable portion of the list. Who gets your objectives while you're 'nom nom-ing'? Personally I wouldn't like this match up for an army putting so many points into 4 models.

 

 

 

Poison armies: Dark Eldar

 

Nope. Why would we care? Oh noes, you wound me on 4's. I have a 2+ armour save, don't care. Lance spam is what would eat DK's alive, which is the only thing DE do which scares us (that and their need for speed). 

 

 

I really have to assume you haven't faced this. That's the only reason I can fathom you'd say this.

QuoteParking lot IG

Which has been ded for two editions now. IG get by with Air Cav and weird ground lists these days, mainly with Russes for their mech component. They also tend to Ally Knight-Titans, like most Imperial armies.

 

   

Not here. It's evolved, but it's still provides a very high volume of medium strength shots.

 

 

 

QuoteWave Serpent Spam

If you only took 2? Sure. But once you have 4, there is no way they can kill enough before you hit melee. Once you start eating Serpents, they rapidly lose firepower. They do have Dragons and Wraith D-flamers though, which is annoying. But I'd throw down all the same. They only have their shooting phase, if you hit melee they evaporate.

This I don't know. But it's continually complained about.... I haven't faced Wave Serpent spam at a tournament level.

 

 

QuoteNewcrons and Gauss

Gauss doesn't do anything. Oh noes, mass bolter fire. Again, 2+ save and multiple wounds means their odds of doing anything are pretty close to zero. I've had 40+ Warriors unload into a single DK and do nothing. Plus Overwatch. T6 and 2+ save is legit, ask Riptides. One of the few weaknesses for Necrons is their distinct lack of AP2. They kill tanks with gauss, and they eat MC's and assault units with Wraiths. Without Wraiths, I'd say we'd have a fair chance. With Wraiths...urgh, it's mostly a pillow fight until one side rolls badly for saves.

 

  

Like Dark Eldar I have to wonder how often you've seen this. Because for every bad luck story of Gauss doing nothing, I'll give you one where my dual warrior boat squads have decimated high toughness/ multi hullpoint stuff. Not to mention the other stuff.... Wraiths will finish it off nicely but I'm trying to be brief in my point form examples.

 

 

   

In each of those cases, I'd think having 4 expensive models would put you at the disadvantage.

No more than throwing down a bunch of Terminators, watching them do nothing in the shooting phase, and then get eaten by massed fire.

 

I was never making a case for Terminators.

 

 

It sounds like you're very pro on using this list. You've got all the answers for sure. I'd still have to see it get through all of that to believe it though, and quite frankly I'm not buying it right now.

 

I can't say I've faced all of that stuff, but in some cases I have. or I've actually played it. The one I'm really having trouble understanding your counter point to is Dark Eldar... yea I'll just have to leave it at that.

 

Back to the point, I can't see 4 DK's being a 'new' idea. Surely someone has taken this to a tournament?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Tigurius will be rolling on Invis. If you don't cancel it, it won't be as easy as this.... Plus 4 DK's is a very sizable portion of the list. Who gets your objectives while you're 'nom nom-ing'? Personally I wouldn't like this match up for an army putting so many points into 4 models.

 

Psychic Phase Dice is what we do.  Plus the Aegis. ;)

 

Objectives?  Who looks at those when playing GKs?  The only objective is to table your opponent.

 

It's the only goal the GK owuld have anyway, so embrace the fluff!  FORGE THAT NARATIVE!!!

 

SEND THE DAEMON BACK TO THE WARP!

 

Who cares about holding an ammo dump...

 

;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I really have to assume you haven't faced this. That's the only reason I can fathom you'd say this.

 

I've fought a poision spam build before. It did virtually nothing to my army. 2+ saves are legit. Even with the Baron (remember him?), they'd kill like one DK and maybe a squad, then I'd steamroller them flat with shooting and melee. We re-matched another weekend and he brought his lance spam build. Needless to say, I conceded on Turn 3. 

Not here. It's evolved, but it's still provides a very high volume of medium strength shots.

 

Which none of the xenos armies care about. Tau and Eldar either Jink with their mech, or are fielding MC's that IG can't kill at range efficiently. IG murder their infantry pretty well, but that's about it. 

This I don't know. But it's continually complained about.... I haven't faced Wave Serpent spam at a tournament level.

 

It's a huge test of your ability to roll a  2+ continually. T6 helps, but you still often lose at least one DK on the approach. And then they just use Dragons and Wraith-flamers on the other one. It's why 3+ DK's is my new staple build. I don't think 2 cuts it anymore. 

Like Dark Eldar I have to wonder how often you've seen this. Because for every bad luck story of Gauss doing nothing, I'll give you one where my dual warrior boat squads have decimated high toughness/ multi hullpoint stuff. Not to mention the other stuff.... Wraiths will finish it off nicely but I'm trying to be brief in my point form examples.

 

I've fought Necrons since before they got gud in 5th. Gauss kills our infantry, but not our DK's. Wraiths do kill DK's usually though (it's a bit random, sometimes they roll bad and die, sometimes the other way). 

I was never making a case for Terminators.

 

Well, its the only other unit that even vaguely comes close to being a DK. I say vaguely, because they're still worse. 

It sounds like you're very pro on using this list. You've got all the answers for sure. I'd still have to see it get through all of that to believe it though, and quite frankly I'm not buying it right now.

 

I can't say I've faced all of that stuff, but in some cases I have. or I've actually played it. The one I'm really having trouble understanding your counter point to is Dark Eldar... yea I'll just have to leave it at that.

 

Back to the point, I can't see 4 DK's being a 'new' idea. Surely someone has taken this to a tournament?

 

You need to get out there and find games against as wide a field as possible. I've changed player groups twice, and I don't regret it. Each group had different meta, but the one I'm with now is a good mixture of well-intentioned power gamers (meaning they use the power factions, but they run alternative lists and even play different factions to change things up), and returning/new players who field either bad or middle of the road lists, but have fun anyway. I get to fight both the stupid tourney-level lists, and weird/Forge World/left field stuff I would never think to build, much less try to win with. 

 

I'm not aware of double NSF making any waves. Its possible others are taking it, but they're being locked out of the top placings by xenos. 

[Prot]

My group is quite diverse. I can face something netlisted a week ago by someone 'tournament guru' or a bizzarre Forgeworld style list.  The only thing that's stopped me from tournament play lately has been my bad army hopping. I haven't found anything since my Iron Warriors that's stuck, unfortunately for me.

 

The reason I see DE (which are pretty darn common at tournament level play right now) being a problem is because of the pure save volume at 36". I believe I would be at the mercy of terrain in such a match up with 4 Dreadknights. If at 1K I'm facing 52 poison shots, (and I have 2 Dreadknights at that point level) I wonder what it would be at 1850 and up (typical tournament points).

 

I've never claimed to be a lucky guy, but facing even 2 Flyrants, with Twin linked Devourers, I was amazed how easily I was losing my DK's.... Sure, one turn I roll 10 of my 2+ saves, the next, I fail 5 of them... poof, I'm gone.

 

All I can say is I see this as a huge risk. In a tournament scenario, I also like to make sure I can grab objectives and be very reactive. BUT I confess this is how I find success in all my armies. Tournaments I have won have been with unorthodox lists, and I realize this is perhaps my forte and I don't expect others to follow suit.  I probably would not field a 4 DK army in a competitive environment. To me it is too susceptible to what I call 'magic bullet syndrome'.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The reason I see DE (which are pretty darn common at tournament level play right now) being a problem is because of the pure save volume at 36". I believe I would be at the mercy of terrain in such a match up with 4 Dreadknights. If at 1K I'm facing 52 poison shots, (and I have 2 Dreadknights at that point level) I wonder what it would be at 1850 and up (typical tournament points).

 

But you have personal teleporters. They get one Shooting phase to kill you, then you shoot+charge them in your turn. What's the issue?

[Prot]

 

The reason I see DE (which are pretty darn common at tournament level play right now) being a problem is because of the pure save volume at 36". I believe I would be at the mercy of terrain in such a match up with 4 Dreadknights. If at 1K I'm facing 52 poison shots, (and I have 2 Dreadknights at that point level) I wonder what it would be at 1850 and up (typical tournament points).

 

But you have personal teleporters. They get one Shooting phase to kill you, then you shoot+charge them in your turn. What's the issue?

 

 

Well at 1K there are a lot of these little boats... don't know what they're called .They shoot like... a dozen shots, then there are guys inside that shoot similarly, but I don't think as many shots. There are quite a few of these.

 

So I assault one, annihilate it, then I'm sitting there with sword in the wind.... that would be the issue.

 

I'll tell you what though... I bet I have to play this guy, and I'll try just going straight to him and assaulting him to death and see what happens. I'll let you know.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well at 1K there are a lot of these little boats... don't know what they're called .They shoot like... a dozen shots, then there are guys inside that shoot similarly, but I don't think as many shots. There are quite a few of these.

 

So I assault one, annihilate it, then I'm sitting there with sword in the wind.... that would be the issue.

 

I'll tell you what though... I bet I have to play this guy, and I'll try just going straight to him and assaulting him to death and see what happens. I'll let you know.

 

Turn 1: Shunt DK into his face, shoot heavy psycannon and gatling psilencer into his Ravagers (they do more damage than Raiders and he'll only have 3 normally). 

Turn 2: Blow up a Raider with shooting, charge the cargo that spills out. Rinse repeat. 

[jeffersonian000]

I own two, do I play two. If I want more DKs, I add Knight Errants.

 

SJ

[Prot]

 

Well at 1K there are a lot of these little boats... don't know what they're called .They shoot like... a dozen shots, then there are guys inside that shoot similarly, but I don't think as many shots. There are quite a few of these.

 

So I assault one, annihilate it, then I'm sitting there with sword in the wind.... that would be the issue.

 

I'll tell you what though... I bet I have to play this guy, and I'll try just going straight to him and assaulting him to death and see what happens. I'll let you know.

 

Turn 1: Shunt DK into his face, shoot heavy psycannon and gatling psilencer into his Ravagers (they do more damage than Raiders and he'll only have 3 normally). 

Turn 2: Blow up a Raider with shooting, charge the cargo that spills out. Rinse repeat. 

 

 

Just to clarify, do the teleporters cause difficult/dangerous tests? Someone here said on the interceptors there are no tests. On the DK's, I imagine I still -2" from my difficult assault range, but what about dangerous tests?

 

I'm assuming he'll strategically get out of his boats behind the wreckage so I'm just curious.

 

Again at 1K I only have 2 in the army so I definitely feel the number crunch. Now I want to play the guy to test this theory out but our match ups are random so we'll see.

[Zhukov]

Dreadknights being MC's aren't effected by dangerous terrain tests.

Obviously I don't even own 4, never mind 3.

But on the outside looking in, the very premise of taking 4 reminds me of old school power listing.... and this makes me think of winning big and losing big.

When I first started putting together my initial investment into the army there was a lot of calls for me to just grab 3 of them, and I guess I still could but honestly in a heavy Maelstrom environment, or tournament which heavily mimics that mechanic, I think you're in trouble before the first dice rolls.

5 my friend, 5 of them

Well you see, I don't say it's stronger than taking Allies of some sort. It's probably not. However, compared to taking interceptors or more terminators... yes, more Dreadknights is most likely simply stronger. They do more damage than interceptors (even after taking into account the cost difference) and are way faster (and therefore way better) than Terminators. Maelström I don't care about personally, same reason I don't care about playing 1000 points. Can it be fun? Yes. Is it competitive? Hah, nope.

- Poison armies: Dark Eldar

- Parking lot IG

- Wave Serpent Spam

- Newcrons and Gauss

- Heavy centurion lists

Dark Eldar should be superfun! Both have the potential to table one another ^^ They're extremely well equipped to kill Dreadknights (ignore Darius, poison and lance are bóth extremely effective against Dreadknights). But, you have the alphastrike potential as your range is over 48" for 1 turn, while theirs stops, period, at 48". You are also really effective against them with Incinerators and psycannons. Talos dies to Knights in combat. So yeah, should be superfun and probably a skill matchup.

Parking lot IG. Nah, think mate, no way this is even a remotely difficult matchup. IG needs multiple turns to kill you, but they have 1 max. Dreadknights are WAY too fast for them. It's like 6th FMC spam all over.

Serpent spam isn't dangerous. However, the other units of Eldar are. Wraithknights can instakill you, wraithguard/dragons are effective and so is all shuriken weaponry and Warp Spiders. Basicly... everything but Serpents concern you. Serpents fear you! The more Wave Serpents the Eldar player fields, the better. Unless you roll a ton of 1's the 1 turn they get to shoot at you.

Necrons also shouldn't be too hard, think about this one. What would be hard about it? If he spam wraiths, you deal with them first (Dreadknights along with Wraithknights counter Wraiths pretty much). If he doesn't, you shunt up and he's got nowhere to go. He can't kill you fast enough because almost nothing ignored your 2+ armour save. Turn 2 you're in CC, they still don't want to be there and they don't have Command Barges anymore to protect them.

Centurion in Pods murder you, correct. Grav in general kills you dead, so bike armies are also horrible to face if played by a competent guy. If not, you might be able to focus their Grav bikes before he can kill you, in which case it's fair game.

In each of those cases, I'd think having 4 expensive models would put you at the disadvantage.

Not any more than any other unit from the codex. If anything more Dreadknights makes the list (speaking again of mono-GK) more balanced, not less. They're an extremely well-rounded unit and it's harder to counter 5 of them effectively than it is to counter 2.

I am curious if anyone's taken it to a competitive environment and if it actually worked throughout a mutli-game test.

Me too. Surely somebody has done it one would think? I for one don't care about having to buy 5 of the buggers, so I might do it myself. Khorne Daemonkin seems be a big dissapointment, so I can.

I dunno man, the idea of 5 Dreadknights is highly appealing. 5 of those monsters with a 30" move... Should be a blast to play! Also, very easy to transport this list and it should play very fast, making it ideal for tournaments in my opinion.

But again: Taking allies is probably better! Be it Imperial Knights, Pods of some flavour or Centurion Star.

[Prot]

I think if you can pull together enough beans to make a 5 DK list, it could catch a lot of people off guard.

 

The problem with a lot of tournament lists I find is a lot of people just netlist, and can't think for themselves. That's why sometimes something way off the grid wins a tournament. The typical netlisters are thinking about Captain America builds, and Draigo-Cent-Star, etc, etc. But 5 Dk's could catch people off guard for a while.

 

P.S.

Is daemonkin that bad? I have to confess I stopped playing my chaos very recently and swore I wouldn't touch it again until they added something to it. Within 2 weeks, Daemonkin came out, but I bought a bunch of Grey Knights by then..... which I got at a great discount, but got a big speeding ticket on the way home. ugh.... anyway, I was resisting pulling the trigger on Daemonkin, so I don't know anything about it.

[Happy-inquisitor]

For a tournament with qualification to the top tables based on VP (i.e. not basic win/loss points) it is very solid.

 

You win big lots of games and occasionally you meet SM grav spam[1] and lose big. Get to the top tables and hope not to meet any hard-counters in the knock-out stages.

 

You are totally relying on tournament rules against list tailoring - it is actually not so great at your FLGS when there are no rules against that (and against anyone without enough models to swap stuff in/out you are probably close to seal-clubbing).

 

[1] There are other counters but that is the one I personally would be most concerned by.

[tomsev]

At 1k i play 2 in a 1250pts list i made i have 3, and in a 1500pts list i have 4 il be making the 2 missing ones over the next 2 months as will i be making a Knight titan for when I play 1850pts... i love low model count armies... I find they are so much less of a mental struggle when playing multiple games over a weekend...

[Zhukov]

P.S.

Is daemonkin that bad? I have to confess I stopped playing my chaos very recently and swore I wouldn't touch it again until they added something to it. Within 2 weeks, Daemonkin came out, but I bought a bunch of Grey Knights by then..... which I got at a great discount, but got a big speeding ticket on the way home. ugh.... anyway, I was resisting pulling the trigger on Daemonkin, so I don't know anything about it.

Keep your eyes out for a review/thoughts from me or TheJeske or Smurfalypse. It doesn't look good so far, I can tell you that, but I'm not giving a full judgement untill I've actually studied the whole codex myself. (Playing wont be necessary in this case I think, it's not different enough for that and I've got 6 years of succesful competitive CSM play under my belt)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Daemonkin might be good. But it really doesn't matter. Tzeentch is still the power build for Daemons. 

 

5x DK isn't a 'spoiler' army at all. It has glaring weaknesses to AP2 that a balanced list can leverage. Also, at range it doesn't do a lot to high AV unless you Rend either. There are also units in the game that can eat DK's (TWC, Wraiths, Stormhammers, faster MC's etc). Compared to say TripTide, its really not that bad.