How would you rank the 'power' of the GK Codex?

[kaz'sax]

I have to disagree there. You just got to look at battle reports online to see how wide spread the view is outside of those who play the army. Ahh but the riptide is easily killed I cc or at least tied up. I'd have to argue that gk are one of the best match ups vs tau.

 

1-Dk shunts with flamer kills path finders

2- heavy psylincer instant deaths plasma suits

3- force cc attacks kills the riptide

 

Again this is just my opinion after playing against them and seeing others play against them.

[Captain Coolpants]

I don't see anything wrong with draigo.. A multitude of chaos characters are just better in CC than he is, plus necron resurrections ignore force pretty much, and some tyranids and a lot of big daemons can kill him before he even swings (though if they don't, they WILL be insta gibbed). The only reason draigo is getting hate is because of gate... But anyone can get gate.. 2 librarians rolling on sanctic have like a 80% chance of getting it between them, but you don't see people complaining about players with 2 librarians.

[kaz'sax]

I don't see anything wrong with draigo.. A multitude of chaos characters are just better in CC than he is, plus necron resurrections ignore force pretty much, and some tyranids and a lot of big daemons can kill him before he even swings (though if they don't, they WILL be insta gibbed). The only reason draigo is getting hate is because of gate... But anyone can get gate.. 2 librarians rolling on sanctic have like a 80% chance of getting it between them, but you don't see people complaining about players with 2 librarians.

The problem with drago in my experience I'd the ease to get a 2++ more than gate. Though CSM characters sound good on paper they all fail in comparison to drago (hense why there's no real hate towards them. Sure Khârn is a beast but what good is ap2 against a 2++ or a 3++? And drago hits him at the same time with Khârn only having a 5++

 

Don't you have an item that grants you an extra power on sanctic? Be a level 3 and you can get 5/6 of the powers and you're pretty much guaranteed +1 invun

[Prot]

The CSM characters can be amazing, but they are supported by a lot of junk.

 

As they say, "It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys."

 

I think Khârn might be straight up the best CC unit in the game at his point value. (He's under 200). If it weren't for his crappy invuln, and delivery issue, I think he might be used a lot more.

 

For Chaos you see a lot of goofy tactics surrounding characters. Belakor is something like that... very pricey, relying on Invis.... Daemon Princes with MoN. I still think Khârn is a beast... you just have difficulty supporting him properly,and efficiently in that codex.

 

I guess Draigo is good in a codex with a lack of great special characters? Like Necrons, you see their ace dude is actually a supporting character. Otherwise your generic Overlord is very, very potent.

 

Personally I'm reluctant to use him in an already super expensive army. It just feels like there's extremely little room for error with him. When I see him in tournaments a lot of the time he's hosting a squad of Centurions. Which may change more and more now that BA are putting them in pods.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I have to disagree there. You just got to look at battle reports online to see how wide spread the view is outside of those who play the army. Ahh but the riptide is easily killed I cc or at least tied up. I'd have to argue that gk are one of the best match ups vs tau.

 

Have you played Tau? 

1-Dk shunts with flamer kills path finders

 

Nice joke. They take marker drones, hide behind a Support Shas'O in Iridium armour, and usually hide behind a Devilfish or LOS blocking cover. You usually shunt and find nothing will die to your guns. 

2- heavy psylincer instant deaths plasma suits

 

Who are hiding, as are the marker drones. Assuming they aren't in Reserve and Deepstriking, which is another possibility. 

3- force cc attacks kills the riptide

 

You have to survive at least one Shooting phase (two if they got first turn) and one Overwatch to do that. Guess what Tau are really good at?

Don't you have an item that grants you an extra power on sanctic? Be a level 3 and you can get 5/6 of the powers and you're pretty much guaranteed +1 invun 

 

>rolling on Sanctic

Yeah you don't play the army, so no. We roll on Divination. Draigo exists to provide us with 'Gate', we don't roll for it for that reason. The problem is, virtually nothing in our book wants 'Gate'. Centurions do though, hence the combo with Allied SM. 

 

I think Khârn might be straight up the best CC unit in the game at his point value. (He's under 200). If it weren't for his crappy invuln, and delivery issue, I think he might be used a lot more.

 

 

Khârn has good odds to kill a DK lol, he's that strong. Gorechild is legit. His invul is an issue though, it does get him killed. At least he's EW. 

Personally I'm reluctant to use him in an already super expensive army. It just feels like there's extremely little room for error with him. When I see him in tournaments a lot of the time he's hosting a squad of Centurions. Which may change more and more now that BA are putting them in pods.

 

Nah, Draigo can move them 24" every turn, whereas drop pods work once then are useless. That's why 'Gate' is so amazing, it's able to be used over and over, and it gives great mobility to otherwise static units. 

[kaz'sax]

Prot makes a good point with kharns delivery problems, paying 240 points for a ride is way too much basically making him 400 points to be useful.

 

Though I do agree against Most stuff he is amazing but that is only if he manages to kill it first otherwise he's as good as dead.

 

But let's not derail the thread into madness, I've only given my personal views you're all entitled to disagree with me like I you

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Prot makes a good point with kharns delivery problems, paying 240 points for a ride is way too much basically making him 400 points to be useful. 

 

Yeah I don't know why GW hates CSM having good assault transports. Mind you, FW gives them the Storm Eagle. It's a bit expensive though. 

[kaz'sax]

Darius- Ive not actually had a game against tau since 5th but have seen games to which they've been played so have just put together an idea from what I've seen from your codex so I'll take your word for it.

 

Though the only time sanctic hasn't been taken on the liby is when drago wasn't used so again from personal (and from watching others) reasons for my opinion

 

Prot makes a good point with kharns delivery problems, paying 240 points for a ride is way too much basically making him 400 points to be useful.

 

Yeah I don't know why GW hates CSM having good assault transports. Mind you, FW gives them the Storm Eagle. It's a bit expensive though.

The bad guys always have to lose right? Though things might be on the change with the new khorne book due out!

[jeffersonian000]

In response to my post, building a pure GK to tackle Maelstrom does not effect us as much as other armies. For them, building to play Marlstrom means building to not deal with Deathstars, or Horde, or Monster Mash, or Flying Circus. For us, building to play Maelstrom is the same as building to play any mission type, with the same units we would use to deal with any other match up. Shunt, Gate, Jump, Deep Strke, Vortex, Cleansing Flame, Hammerhand, Force, it's all about applying the right tool to the right job.

 

DE, for me, are a target right environment, with lots of soft bodies waiting to be popped. Going into a game versus DE without such a mindset is a recipe for failure. The old "eliminate one unit at a time" means more shooting each round, with a higher rate of attrition for your GKs. Yet, "cripple as many units as possible right now" means less shots back at you, winning your GK the attrition game.

 

Eldar are all about high strength, low AP shots while being unhittable. We counter this by being very fast, breaking rear armor, Soulblazing and rending the soft targets, and dancing with the hard targets. The cripple strat is less useful, while the eliminate strat is too time consuming, so a "break problem stuff, ignore the unbreakable stuff while playing to the mission" strat works fine.

 

Necrons got a face lift, which tuned down their overtuned stuff from past codex, while tuning up their under performers. And overturning their Wraiths. Again, go for the soft stuff, Gate out if unfavorable combat, kite, play to the mission.

 

Tau are targets, just like Deldar. Burn the Marker Lights, light up the soft suits, ignore the hard suits unit they can be focused down. Use maneuver and LoS blocking terrain, play to the mission. Tau tends to lose the mission when you bully them, so bully them.

 

Orks and Nids are a case of kite and bleed their mobile stuff, burn their static stuff, play to the mission.

 

Astra Militarum are again all about burning the soft stuff and breaking the hard stuff, but require bottle necking their mass fire via terrain and maneuver while playing to the mission.

 

Marines are going to do something they feel is a power build, so we have to avoid their power unit and deal with stalling their soft units while playing to the mission. Getting it stuck in with CC is a boon, and Gating out of CC as necessary is a strategic tool. Null deployment can be an attractive option, with a high failure change due to bad luck. Avoid relying on luck.

 

Imperial Knights are monsters, so bring your own monsters.

 

Flyers, either bring your own, or move out of their way. Moving so Flyers always have to move pass you is not a hard skill to learn, especially when your army is based on being able to move or hidding in combat.

 

The answer to most problems is Shunt-Burn, Jump-Burn, Gate-Shoot, or DS-Shoot. The problems those don't address are solved with kiting, hugging terrain, getting it stuck in, and/or playing to the mission.

 

And yes, I look forward to an actual pure army winning a high profile tournament, but that's not going to happen in 7th. 7th is all about getting the right mix for you to counter everyone else's right mix, which means allies. I like Imperial Knights with my Grey Knights at 1850 or higher. Is that good? Bad? Indifferent? Who cares, it's what I like.

 

SJ

[Prot]

 

Personally I'm reluctant to use him in an already super expensive army. It just feels like there's extremely little room for error with him. When I see him in tournaments a lot of the time he's hosting a squad of Centurions. Which may change more and more now that BA are putting them in pods.

 

Nah, Draigo can move them 24" every turn, whereas drop pods work once then are useless. That's why 'Gate' is so amazing, it's able to be used over and over, and it gives great mobility to otherwise static units. 

 

 

But does Draigo really justify the points? I know he's tough to kill with Sanctuary running, and he's good in close combat, but does he add enough to the already small model count army?

 

I personally see adding 2 libbys to my Grey Knights at 1850 before getting to Draigo. Plus it seems Draigo isn't enough and many people feel the need to add at least one Libby on top of him, if not 2?

[Zhukov]

 

Okay Jeff, I'm calling you out here officially. Win a local tournament with a pure GK list. If you do, you'll have done what pretty much no one has accomplished since the 7th edition update. All those pros who piloted us in 5th can't do it. I honestly don't see how any of us can.

Darius, no offense really, but maybe you're just not a really good player? It honestly not that hard to win local tournaments, I've done it many times with underwhelming armies (Eldar and CSM end of 5th edition for example). It's also completely meaningless, as there are simply sometimes no good players at all in local tournaments. You could also be a bit more modest overall with your opinions I feel. You state your opinions on the strenght and mathcups of many armies in a very... black and white manner, many which are just not true. Things like Tau being so strong while they've never consistently won anything... Grey Knights are actually one of their not so nice matchups. Same goes for Necrons: What makes you think GK suffer against them? Grey Knights can actually handle Wraiths and can reach CC turn 2 if they choose so. Necrons also trouble ignoring 2+ armour saves. And you rate Tyranids very low while stating their FMC's got nerfed? Mate, the Hive Tyrant is one of the few FMC's not nerfed with the 7th edition rules set, as they don't care about assaulting. They benefit greatly from being way harder to ground, it means they can shoot from the air all game long. Look up some stats please regarding winrates on Torrent of Fire and follow actual competitive events please. Xenos don't dominate. Marines, Knights and now Grey Knights are having a really strong showing for the whole of 7th.

 

I'll tell you what, I'll probably stand up to your challenge if Jeff wont, I just can't promise it yet. I'm going to emigrate and will need to build and paint the whole damn army from scratch (I played GK's in the past, but sold them.). Will take some months basicly, if I do it. (Depends on what gets released the next 2 months or so)

[jeffersonian000]

Draigo is a beast, the best Land Raider in our codex. He is worth it every time, and he does not prevent you from taking two Librarians, nor a GM and Librarian if that's the cut of your jib. What Draigo brings to the table is the ability to get out of harm right now, the ability to Tank a shot, and the ability to do both without taking up an HQ slot. Yes, Librarian can fish for Gate, but a better use is to fish for Sancturay and Vortex. Let Draigo be your vehicle, while the rest of your list does its job.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

In response to my post, building a pure GK to tackle Maelstrom does not effect us as much as other armies. For them, building to play Marlstrom means building to not deal with Deathstars, or Horde, or Monster Mash, or Flying Circus. For us, building to play Maelstrom is the same as building to play any mission type, with the same units we would use to deal with any other match up. Shunt, Gate, Jump, Deep Strke, Vortex, Cleansing Flame, Hammerhand, Force

 

That's not a good thing though.

 

It's just highlighting that unlike other armies, we don't have other tools.

 

We can't build ourselves any other way.

 

And our best bet is to ignore the mission and go for the table.

[Happy-inquisitor]

So far as the current codex goes the good units are very very good and the other units are meh.

 

I was idly doing some excel-jutsu on the Adepticon results and from the Thursday singles GK came out 4th average score, way behind Imperial Knights and narrowly behind Eldar and Necrons. Just a hairs-breadth ahead of Codex SM. Very solid, definitely towards the top of the power curve which is what the stats have been showing from elsewhere too.

 

Personally I still find inquisitors to be the fun part but that's not competitive its just fun.

[Gentlemanloser]

Again though, is this just people picking the good units form the dex as allies (or lynchpins) to other units?

 

As I made a thread a while ago, what makes a GK army?  Should we even bother to try to distinguish this now?

 

40k is now a game of mix and matched factions.

 

To get the 'best'.  Whether that game winning power or as close to fluff representation as you can manage.

 

Single book armies are dead.  A thing of the past.  Yet the community is trying to hold on to this now outdated notion.

[Prot]

I was looking at the Adepticon standings myself (For qualifiers as end results are not available when I checked).

 

The Gk army I saw higher in the standings was allied though, was it not? I'm assuming it was Grav-Gate. So I can't count that in our discussion here because chances are the eldar and crons will not be allying. (Overall though marines are all in a tough spot).

 

For me I am a sucker for Terminators and trying to assault. I think the Grey knights might still do this best...we'll see.

 

Single book armies are dead.  A thing of the past.  Yet the community is trying to hold on to this now outdated notion.

 

 

Tyranids, Eldar, and Necrons are fine on their own. I believe the national tournament before LVO (can't remember the name) was won by an Ork player running a massive truckk list. Pure Orks.

 

If we rank GK behind those, I'm fine with that, but how far down the ladder are we?

[Gentlemanloser]

Wolfguard might still be the best for that.  As long as you can tear yourself away from TWC. ;)

[Happy-inquisitor]

Again though, is this just people picking the good units form the dex as allies (or lynchpins) to other units?

 

 

That was as primary detachment. We all know what we think are the good units and for a no holds barred tournament that is what I would expect to see multiples of.

 

From my quick look I think Space Wolves are a big ally codex, lots of appearances as ally but nowhere near as many as a primary. My guess would be that people want the drop pods.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I was looking at the Adepticon standings myself (For qualifiers as end results are not available when I checked).

 

The Gk army I saw higher in the standings was allied though, was it not? I'm assuming it was Grav-Gate. So I can't count that in our discussion here because chances are the eldar and crons will not be allying. (Overall though marines are all in a tough spot).

 

 

 

The ally matrix is one of the big advantages for Imperial armies, for a tournament it is hardly surprising if most players use that advantage. The old 5th edition codex had inquisition and assassin allies built into the book - now they are split out into other books yet you have a lot more choice of the battle brother allies you take.

 

Eldar and Necrons gain less from allies - the ally matrix is less helpful to them in providing effective combos. Pure one-codex lists are not really how 7th is designed and doing it with a 7th edition codex like GK is handicapping yourself.

[jeffersonian000]

I missed this one:

 

I'll tell you what, I'll probably stand up to your challenge if Jeff wont, I just can't promise it yet. I'm going to emigrate and will need to build and paint the whole damn army from scratch (I played GK's in the past, but sold them.). Will take some months basicly, if I do it. (Depends on what gets released the next 2 months or so)

I don't post my personal win-loss ratio, because it's anecdotal and of no value. Now, if you see the tag Jeffersonian000 at a major event, well, that would be me and I will speak on that event. As to local level, I do fine, win some, lose some, etc., nothing to crow my epeen about. There are local players I can't beat, cheaters I won't play, and people that won't play my GK or IK but will play my 2nd Ed LotD army now used as current codex Matines ... or Wolves ... or Vampires. Occasionally, I even breakout my Sisters. What I truly live for, though, are Apocalypse games, where I can unleash my Titans (for the turn or two they live). My 25,000 point Battlefleet Gothic navy is in another state, so haven't played them in years.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Tyranids, Eldar, and Necrons are fine on their own.

 

Don't disagree, and not interested in the semantics of 'fine'.

 

But dips into other Codexes (like a Deldar IC attached to some Wraith Guard with a WWP?) won't make them 'better'?

 

That, I find very hard to believe.

 

 

 

That was as primary detachment.

 

Does that really matter?

 

I can run a bare bones NSF as 'Primary' just to make an NDK my Warlord for a Trait.

 

If I then spend the other 75% of my points on other CADs/ADs/Special Faction Formations, does that then make my Army a GK Army?

 

Edit:

 

As for the lack of options for the filthy Xenos, I really don't care. ;)  That's GWs fumble, not mine.

 

That they decided not to allow Genestealer cults by giving nids BB to IG I'll never understand.

 

But at least Nids can ally two different Hiveworlds together.  Unlike 6th.

 

And more and more non imperial extra faction goodness is coming out.

 

The great enemy now has a bit more fun with;

 

Renegade Marines, Angry Marines, Daemons, Cypher, Special Renegades and I'm assuming a soon to be Dark Mech counterpoint.  Thrown in some lost and damned, Dark IG, Dark Imperial Knights and there's almost there!

[Zhukov]

Single book armies are dead.  A thing of the past.  Yet the community is trying to hold on to this now outdated notion.

Tyranids won Las Vegas Open, no allies.

Daemons just won Adepticon, no allies.

 

Eldar often play without allies.

Necrons often play without allies.

Daemons often play without allies.

Tyranids often play without allies.

Tau often play without allies.

Orks often play without allies.

 

It's not true. One can say it's because of the Ally matrix, okay, but that doesn't change the fact that it's simply not true.

 

That, I find very hard to believe.

Do you think that some of the best players in the world don't take certain allies even though it would make their list stronger? That I find hard to believe.

[Gentlemanloser]

Zhukov, so you're saying GW have intentionally nerfed the entire Imperium by designing the Forces of the Imperium around a bloated ally matrix?

 

Oh and allying to yourself is still allying...

 

Edit: and a Deldar IC with a WWP doesn't make any Eldar list better?  Honestly?

 

Edit2: Also, how many of those Tournaments above allowed an unlimited number of Detachments / Factions?

 

Kinda hard to build a SM/GK/Inquisitor/IK army when you're limited to 2...

[Gentlemanloser]

Edit: I also think it's ridiculous that;

 

The Armies of the Imperium aren't a single Faction.

 

That different forces based off the same Codex (Farsight and 'normal' Tau for example) are the same Faction.

 

I've not played with it, but the new Harlequin Dex.

 

This strong enough in it's own right?  Or the first Xenos 'ally' Codex?

 

How's this for an example;

 

You can take a Marine Detachment with a Unit of Legion of the Damned.  1 Faction.

 

You can take two Marine Detachments (same Chapter Tactic) with a Unit of Legion of the Damned in each.  1 Faction.

 

You can take two Marine Detachments (different Chapter Tactics) with a Unit of Legion of the Damned in each.  1 Faction.

 

You take a Marine Detachment with a Unit of Legion of the Damned, and a Unit from Codex: Legion of the damned.  2 Factions.

 

Why?

[Dread]

I'll just reply with this, I LOVE MY GREY KNIGHTS! Win or lose, the only ally I ever take is an Imperial Knight, which is ehh at best.