How would you rank the 'power' of the GK Codex?

[Gentlemanloser]

Ehh?

 

 

 

I was idly doing some excel-jutsu on the Adepticon results and from the Thursday singles GK came out 4th average score, way behind Imperial Knights and narrowly behind Eldar and Necrons.

 

Would put them top at Adepticon.

[Dread]

I guess the nurgle chaos lord with plague marines in a rhino  gets out and I charge them with my IK thinking, alright, I'm gonna get slay the warlord! HA the lord reaches out with his power fist and kablam! Rips the ankle plate off and beat him to death with it. HAHA! Now, we read the rules later and I'm pretty sure we did something wrong. When I had my sisters, I used him with them. Worked great as a fire magnet allowing some of my good fire support to get up close and do their thing. I've only fielded him in about 5 games and the longest he lasted was 3 turns, so ehh for me. I will still take him with my GK as soon as I get to start playing again, life has gotten in my way for now. I do real well with my GK or did last summer and fall actually to a point where some of my players wouldn't field against me and my lists are just basic, go figure.

 

BTW, sorry I haven't been around here much lately, been recovering from illness and surgery since November. I will be here more from now on with my itty bitty bit of knowledge and hope it helps.

[jeffersonian000]

I'll just reply with this, I LOVE MY GREY KNIGHTS! Win or lose, the only ally I ever take is an Imperial Knight, which is ehh at best.

Better be careful there, Dread. People might start thinking you are me! /blush

 

SJ

[Prot]

 

Single book armies are dead.  A thing of the past.  Yet the community is trying to hold on to this now outdated notion.

Tyranids won Las Vegas Open, no allies.

Daemons just won Adepticon, no allies.

 

Eldar often play without allies.

Necrons often play without allies.

Daemons often play without allies.

Tyranids often play without allies.

Tau often play without allies.

Orks often play without allies.

 

It's not true. One can say it's because of the Ally matrix, okay, but that doesn't change the fact that it's simply not true.

 

That, I find very hard to believe.

Do you think that some of the best players in the world don't take certain allies even though it would make their list stronger? That I find hard to believe.

 

^this.

 

It's basically repeating what I said, but I'd add Orks to that list as I think it was just before the new year that a pure Ork list won a national tournament. It's not anecdotal and it's 'fine' if it's winning. But more importantly, where the heck is this conversation going? 

 

Are we going to argue into a meaningless pit about allies? At the end of the day who cares? I think you should feel free to play this game how ever you like. I asked about a 'ranking' for the codex because I personally haven't taken GK very far, but when I talk to people who have played them far longer than I, the responses are all over the place.

 

So I concluded that I should perhaps ask the question here figuring there was a chance that people here would have experienced GK at tournaments. I didn't foresee that it would degrade into calling each other out, and that's just a bit disappointing.

 

At the end of the day if you want to talk about handicapping yourself, you would do so if you take less than the top 3 codexes, (with allies if appliicable) to a tournament. But that's not where I was going with this. I'm not a WAAC player, and I like the challenge of trying to make something work that perhaps is unorthodox. If someone wants to say I'm handicapping myself, well so be it. Call me handicapped. ;)

 

I have played a lot of tournaments, and I don't always agree with Zhukov, but I have to agree you get a real mixed bag of beans at a tournament. I've played a lot of chaos and had my fair share of uphill battles in this game. I was hoping to stick with Power armour... even Terminators and still be competitive. That's all I was personally hoping for out of this conversation.

 

I greatly appreciate the opinions but could we please be a little more respectful of each other during the conversation? 

 

Back to the discussion I may be in the minority but I've seen extremely good players get a lot of mileage out of lists/armies that a lot of people here would consider junk. I definitely respect those players.... the guy who knows his armies, and his opponent's backwards and forwards. 

 

7th is a strange animal... it's definitely brought out some of the hottest debates I can recall in 40K to date. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I think it's impossible to rank Codexes, because how do you use them?

 

Pure?

 

As the minority in another Army?

 

Just for a specific Character, and whatever Tax is needed?

 

How do you want to judge powerful?

 

NDKs are a powerful unit.

 

People bring Draigo *just* to move Cents around.  Does that make GKs a powerful Codex because of that option?

 

Is Codex: Grey Knights powerful because it has a very useful Faction specific Detachment?

 

Is a Grav-Draigo army Top Tier because of the Cents?  Tiggy's Invis?  Draigo's Mobility?

 

Is that Codex: GK army powerful because it bought an Imperial Titan?

 

I believe 40k is far too open these days.

 

 

End of the day, what I'll say about the Grey Knights is they have some powerful options in their Codex, and are best used as Allies to another Army.

 

 

Edit: Going back to a question in the OP, I believe this is why there such a disparity of views about the potency of the Grey Kngihts.  You ask one player, and he's a pure GK player (or plays against pure knights), you ask a second and all they know is Draigo moving those damn Cents around.  You ask a third and they use/face 9 NDKs in an unbound list.

 

And so on.

 

The comminuty itself influences the game so much at an individual level now, that over arching views are difficult to pin down.  Some guy ban unbound. Some play 2 Factions only.  Some limit unit choices to only 1/2 of each.  Each houserule/restriction impacts how a codex performs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius- Ive not actually had a game against tau since 5th but have seen games to which they've been played so have just put together an idea from what I've seen from your codex so I'll take your word for it. 

 

Though the only time sanctic hasn't been taken on the liby is when drago wasn't used so again from personal (and from watching others) reasons for my opinion

 

Well I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about unless you've actually fought Tau. They are almost unrecognisable from their 5th edition builds (which were all awful, I would know I've been playing Tau since 4th). Likewise, if you don't play GK or against them regularly, you don't know how we operate, or what's good. 

The bad guys always have to lose right? Though things might be on the change with the new khorne book due out!

 

It wouldn't kill them to have a Raven or something like it. I mean really, it's not even that powerful to give them that option. Enemy AA can still take out Ravens just fine. 

But does Draigo really justify the points? I know he's tough to kill with Sanctuary running, and he's good in close combat, but does he add enough to the already small model count army?

 

I personally see adding 2 libbys to my Grey Knights at 1850 before getting to Draigo. Plus it seems Draigo isn't enough and many people feel the need to add at least one Libby on top of him, if not 2?

 

Are you Allying Grav-Centurions? Then Draigo is your guy. No? Then as you say, two Libbys is a better investment, for a variety of reasons. This is what I keep getting back to. Draigo is for Allies, he's not really that great with his own faction. 

Darius, no offense really, but maybe you're just not a really good player? 

 

I'm afraid you have caused offence. Mainly because you're accusing me of being a bad player, based on...what? I don't mind getting told I'm wrong, but I'd prefer you bring up facts or evidence as to why. Don't attack me, attack my arguments please. 

It honestly not that hard to win local tournaments, I've done it many times with underwhelming armies (Eldar and CSM end of 5th edition for example). It's also completely meaningless, as there are simply sometimes no good players at all in local tournaments. 

 

>anecdotes

I was low-balling my challenge, as I don't attend competitive events in my country (due to all the stupid comp that does nothing but punish weaker armies). I don't expect Jeff or anyone else to go to Adepticon with pure Knights and win, for example. But I'd be happy if someone could actually take on the xenos dominance and crush it. Because I've never seen it happen since our 7th edition update. 

You could also be a bit more modest overall with your opinions I feel. You state your opinions on the strenght and mathcups of many armies in a very... black and white manner, many which are just not true. 

 

Well, that's my posting style. Deal with it. I'd prefer if you actually addressed my arguments with your own, rather than just complaining that I offended you. I don't ask you to do it. I'd prefer you honest opinions, unvarnished and straight. Backing them up, I'd also like some evidence and facts. I've presented plenty, and I'm quite happy to repeat them. 

Things like Tau being so strong while they've never consistently won anything

 

Based on what? Because I can point to any number of tournaments with strong Tau placings in all of them. They're a ubiquitous part of the meta-game. If you can't see that, I honestly can't help you at all.

Grey Knights are actually one of their not so nice matchups. 

 

Again, where is your evidence? 

Same goes for Necrons: What makes you think GK suffer against them? Grey Knights can actually handle Wraiths and can reach CC turn 2 if they choose so. Necrons also trouble ignoring 2+ armour saves. 

 

Oh gee, I dunno. We typically have at best, 20-30 models on the table? S4 spammed does kill infantry, and ours are no different. I routinely lose more models to forced armour saves than I do to AP3/2. Even DK's aren't immune to the law of averages (although I agree that T6 and 2+ make them difficult to deal with for Necrons). Wraiths are broken, and as I mentioned its a close-run fight between them and DK's. Also, Wraiths are very fast, and they eat all our infantry very efficiently. 

And you rate Tyranids very low while stating their FMC's got nerfed? Mate, the Hive Tyrant is one of the few FMC's not nerfed with the 7th edition rules set, as they don't care about assaulting. They benefit greatly from being way harder to ground, it means they can shoot from the air all game long

 

DId you even read what I posted? I said Nids are halfway between top-tier and middle of the road. I also said that meta game changes due to Necrons coming into focus might bring Tyranids back up to top-tier. Nids are one of the few factions that can genuinely out-attrition Necrons, Orks being the other possible contender. Thus far, Nids have had strong showings at tourneys, but Necrons might emerge to push them out. We shall see. But I did not say Nids aren't strong. They are. But like Daemons, GK generally don't have issues against Nids. They are one of the armies we hard-counter by design. 

Look up some stats please regarding winrates on Torrent of Fire and follow actual competitive events please. Xenos don't dominate. Marines, Knights and now Grey Knights are having a really strong showing for the whole of 7th.

 

I simply cannot take your opinions seriously if you don't post some evidence to back them up. Xenos don't dominate...yeah okay. Read the Necron book and tell me that with a straight face. 

I'll tell you what, I'll probably stand up to your challenge if Jeff wont, I just can't promise it yet. I'm going to emigrate and will need to build and paint the whole damn army from scratch (I played GK's in the past, but sold them.). Will take some months basicly, if I do it. (Depends on what gets released the next 2 months or so)

 

Please do. We need wins on the board. As I said, my expectations are realistic. I'm not asking for a major tourney. Just beat a reasonable field at a local event, and tell us how you did it. 

I was idly doing some excel-jutsu on the Adepticon results and from the Thursday singles GK came out 4th average score, way behind Imperial Knights and narrowly behind Eldar and Necrons. Just a hairs-breadth ahead of Codex SM. Very solid, definitely towards the top of the power curve which is what the stats have been showing from elsewhere too.

 

Well, it's one tourney, but I do like Adepticon as a measure of things. We shall see how the rest of the year shapes up. Remember to be careful about viewing results. GK being involved at all in a win just means Allies to SM or whatever normally. We're talking pure GK in this thread. 4th sounds about right, probably some mission related or matchup stuff going on there (like at any event). 

 

Tyranids, Eldar, and Necrons are fine on their own. I believe the national tournament before LVO (can't remember the name) was won by an Ork player running a massive truckk list. Pure Orks.

 

 

Orks are the troll army at tournaments lol. They always outdo expectations, rarely wins though. I'm always backing Orks as an underdog. I think with a bit better codex design, they'd actually be a great meta bender to the other xenos factions. Nids do horde but mostly with MC backup. Orks are a true horde list, and the kings of RNG. 

 

From my quick look I think Space Wolves are a big ally codex, lots of appearances as ally but nowhere near as many as a primary. My guess would be that people want the drop pods.

 

 

Yeah plus Rune Priests, TWC and Grey Hunters being the best MeQ unit outside of Sternguard. SW have a lot to offer as an Ally, with very few drawbacks that matter. When vanilla Marines get drop pods in FA though, we might see them and BA drop off as Allies. Too early to say. 

Eldar and Necrons gain less from allies - the ally matrix is less helpful to them in providing effective combos. Pure one-codex lists are not really how 7th is designed and doing it with a 7th edition codex like GK is handicapping yourself.

 

But that's the problem. Why do Imperial players need to own 3-4 army books and a bunch of data-slates, just to build a halfway decent force? Xenos don't have to put up with any of that rubbish. 

I don't post my personal win-loss ratio, because it's anecdotal and of no value. Now, if you see the tag Jeffersonian000 at a major event, well, that would be me and I will speak on that event. As to local level, I do fine, win some, lose some, etc., nothing to crow my epeen about. There are local players I can't beat, cheaters I won't play, and people that won't play my GK or IK but will play my 2nd Ed LotD army now used as current codex Matines ... or Wolves ... or Vampires. Occasionally, I even breakout my Sisters. What I truly live for, though, are Apocalypse games, where I can unleash my Titans (for the turn or two they live). My 25,000 point Battlefleet Gothic navy is in another state, so haven't played them in years.

 

That's fine man. I was just saying, if you can break our drought of tourney wins, even at a local level, I would be truly impressed. Because 7th has been a complete wash in that regard. I'm still trying to find a build I'm happy with, but none of them have done it yet. 

 

GML, I'm agreeing with Zhukov about Allies. I think it's retarded that Imperial armies have to limp along Allying crutches, while xenos and Daemons can take it or leave it, and largely go pure anyway. Clearly, there is one set of rules for human factions, one set of rules for non-humans. That has to change. 

 

Back to the discussion I may be in the minority but I've seen extremely good players get a lot of mileage out of lists/armies that a lot of people here would consider junk. I definitely respect those players.... the guy who knows his armies, and his opponent's backwards and forwards. 

 

>anecdotes

 

Look, I'll happily agree that general > army list. But when the army list largely plays itself, you barely need a competent general to pilot it. That's what xenos do currently, they grant powerful tools that are hard to lose with provided you're awake. Imperial factions meanwhile require a lot of experience and skill, not to mention we have to keep changing our lists and bringing in different Allies to prop up our armies. It's a joke. I don't expect every faction to be the same power level, but it's pretty absurd the disparity between Imperial and non-Imperial right now. We used to all complain about Marine dominance ;) I still remember those days. I almost wish for them again. 

 

7th is a strange animal... it's definitely brought out some of the hottest debates I can recall in 40K to date. 

 

 

Mainly because we've never seen aliens this good, and for so long (6th edition onwards basically). We all got used to seeing Marine v Marine action at the top tables for so many editions, with sometimes a lone xenos faction rising to the top for a year or so, before it got hard-countered and figured out. Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids and Daemons all throw down problems a lot of even balanced lists find hard to solve. I think in time, the meta will move on, and we won't see xenos dominance as much. But right now, it's a bad time to be an Imperial player. 

 

 

I think it's impossible to rank Codexes, because how do you use them?

 

 

No it's not. We look at competitive rankings in real tournaments, that actually happened. That's the true measure of a codex. Is it placing highly? Maybe only as an Ally, which is an indictment of it's internal balance (like GK for example). But it's very clear looking at tournament rankings who the top dogs are. It's aliens and Daemons. 

[Prot]

Edit: Going back to a question in the OP, I believe this is why there such a disparity of views about the potency of the Grey Kngihts.  You ask one player, and he's a pure GK player (or plays against pure knights), you ask a second and all they know is Draigo moving those damn Cents around.  You ask a third and they use/face 9 NDKs in an unbound list.

 

And so on.

 

 

This is very true. I think I originally was asking in the context as playing it 'pure'. A lot of codexes still do just that. Personal taste but I look at some of these tournament armies and they're 2-3 knights and 2 squads of marines, and they call it 'Imperial Fists'. lol 

 

Right next to that is 2-3 knights and 2 squads of blue marines; that's Ultramarines. 

 

I mean that's fine by me... but if we look on a codex level, there are some subtle but significant differences between the power armoured army codexes. For instance, I was really surprised how different my Ultramarines played than the Dark Angels. 

 

Here's one army that excels at mid-range shooty, and quite frankly the other army kind of stinks at it. The Ravenwing are very cool, don't get me wrong, but Grav/Capt America build kind of eclipses it.... Not talking allies here.

 

So there's two significantly different codexes yet featuring dudes who put on the same Mark IV made on Mars. (Or Walmart depending on your chapter of choice.)

 

I made a big mistake thinking Deathwing were 'the' Terminator army of choice. I realize 'Terminator Armies' are a dead concept. I mean I'm guilty of starting the "terminators should be Wraiths' thread on the Adeptus sub forum... But humour me....

 

Dark Angels it turns out pay way too much for some very mediocre abilities. Some things are VERY cool, but subtle differences again. The devil is in the details. Belial unlocks troops. Grey Knights? They simply are troops. Subtle but significant because GK are not handcuffed to a very cruddy HQ.

[Gentlemanloser]

GML, I'm agreeing with Zhukov about Allies. I think it's retarded that Imperial armies have to limp along Allying crutches, while xenos and Daemons can take it or leave it, and largely go pure anyway. Clearly, there is one set of rules for human factions, one set of rules for non-humans. That has to change.

Don't disagree with that. See my Legion example above.

But again, it's GW's problem they haven't 'updated' all the Xenos with a multitude of different faction allies yet.

But they will.

They've started with the Harle's (and as I asked above, I'd be interested to know if they're the first Xenos Ally Dex...), and *will* continue. (Hai Daemonkin...)

This is how GW have built the game to run in 7th.

Edit: And obviously my PoV is that of the mighty armies of the Imperium. Not filthy Xenos scum with no friends to ally with... /whistle

Dark Angels it turns out pay way too much for some very mediocre abilities. Some things are VERY cool, but subtle differences again. The devil is in the details. Belial unlocks troops. Grey Knights? They simply are troops. Subtle but significant because GK are not handcuffed to a very cruddy HQ.

I always liked Belial for his no scatter first turn DS.

Then he got outclassed / Codex creeped by Fast Slot Drop Pods.

lolz

GG GW, Good Game...

But that's the problem. Why do Imperial players need to own 3-4 army books and a bunch of data-slates, just to build a halfway decent force?

Vicious circle. Chicken and Egg.

Imperial Forces need multiple books, because books are designed around the mass of Allies. The GK dex was ok to be split into three separate books, because you can ally them all together!! With all the other unit types you're missing.

Could you imagine what would happen if say the Dark Eldar were chopped down to nothing by Kabal units, and Wyches/Haemo's all taken out and not released?

The Dark Eldar range would fail. And players wouldn't stand for it.

I honestly thought the Dark Eldar dex would be split into 3's like this, but still it would only be a Codex and two supplements. It would *need* to have been three Codexes. That's a start to increasing the Dark Elf factions...

Armies of the Elder Ones. Containing Faction: Craftworld Eldar, Faction: Exodites, Faction: Wych Cults, Faction: Dark Eldar Cabals, Faction: Haemonculi Covens, Faction: Harlequins.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But again, it's GW's problem they haven't 'updated' all the Xenos with a multitude of different faction allies yet.

 

 

You should read the Harlequin book. It's jank central. Also, they have the Shadowseer his old '2x2D6 or you can't shoot me' psychic power lol. I can't wait to see that stupidity across the table, attached to a big unit of Wraith-flamers. 

I always liked Belial for his no scatter first turn DS.

 

Then he got outclassed / Codex creeped by Fast Slot Drop Pods.

 

lolz

 

GG GW, Good Game...

 

It's really sad how bad Deathwing are these days. Like, they have them plasma cannons on Terminators that DS Turn 1 and re-roll to hit after Deepstriking. And it's still not enough, because they cost too much and xenos just laugh them off the table (even with storm shields on everyone but the special weapon guy). I mean, we have better Terminators than DA, and we still can't make it work at the top tables with any regularity. 

[Gentlemanloser]

You should read the Harlequin book. It's jank central. Also, they have the Shadowseer his old '2x2D6 or you can't shoot me' psychic power lol. I can't wait to see that stupidity across the table, attached to a big unit of Wraith-flamers.

 

Pfft.  Deldar WWP is better.

 

We can deny Shadowseer, or then there's the Culexes.

 

 

Edit: So first Xenos 'Ally only' Codex?

[Dread]

Hey Jeffersoinian000, that's not a bad thing. Good to hear from ya. I've been working on my Eldar and harlis and crons so much lately kinda went by me for my GK since they are all apinted or were until I added a few things so need to get them painted.....come on paint comp.....

 

As for the actual topic, I still stand on pure armies. It's like my car has a 350 with some work done on it and the guy that pulls up next to me has a 350 with stuff and a nos system, not cheating, totally legal in street racing but the moral is I stayed pure and he had to get a bottle to beat me. I think GW is trying this mixing thing to help the game implode on itself. Our group have the fun guys and tourney guys and you know how that works. I play for fun but after getting slaughtered so much I ripped thru the dex and made an unfun list and mowed a few people, they tamed down after that. I wasn't smiling and they didn't like that. Now fluff driven armies and a good 6 turns happens a lot around here.

[Sigvard]

I have found of late with the release of some of the new Marine books that whilst they have been rich in back story they have been lacking in table top punch. However they can all work, buddy of mine plays marines with no allies and I saw him rack up a Maelstrom total of something like 17-2 the other day against Cheesebot Decurion of Doom and that was based entirely on his skill as a player. I think the thing GW are driving at is this. Each Xenos Faction is seperate - Tau, Tyranids, Buttcrons (I especially hate these guys - friend runs the full Decurion with Wraith guff - first two games got tabled hard!!) hell even the 3 eldar are all seperate factions. But the Imperium of Man is not - we are for all intents and purposes considered to be a single faction, they want to give us the option of representing the Imperium in its dying days and rarely will this be a faction standing alone.

 

The tournament top tiers show this with a high number of allied Imperium lists and alot of allied Imperium that makes sense - Scars and Space Wolves for example, saying "It's a bad time to be an Imperium Player" is just feeling sorry for ourselves, because it's clearly not. I think "It's a good time to be a Xenos Player" is more accurate and that is only because they have to spend less money on codices to get highly competitive army lists.

[jeffersonian000]

If I remember correctly, a double CAD pure GK list won a big tourney in Australia recently. Based on two Libbies, minimum Troops, Stormravens, and max DKs at 1850. Thought ai read that on BnC, though. Might have been Dakka or BoLS or Warseer, but either way, there is that one anecdotal win people seem obsessed about.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Quote

    But does Draigo really justify the points? I know he's tough to kill with Sanctuary running, and he's good in close combat, but does he add enough to the already small model count army?

    

    I personally see adding 2 libbys to my Grey Knights at 1850 before getting to Draigo. Plus it seems Draigo isn't enough and many people feel the need to add at least one Libby on top of him, if not 2?

    

Are you Allying Grav-Centurions? Then Draigo is your guy. No? Then as you say, two Libbys is a better investment, for a variety of reasons. This is what I keep getting back to. Draigo is for Allies, he's not really that great with his own faction.

 

 

 

 

No I won't be allying like that. My Centurions are always gonna be Ultra's. ;)

 

But I did pick up the Draigo model and was hoping he'd be really beneficial at about 1850 without Centurions. I only say this because of my earlier comment that I just didn't want to keep repeating my list to compete with the other guys. Finding the odd nugget of uniqueness and remaining competitive might keep me going longer with the army.

 

I'm also thinking of Assassins.

[Deamon Wolf]

I have only read the first page and you make me sooo dishartened with your views towards our beloved knights of Titan

 

I run a pure knight list and I win and I loose I find this dependant on what I take its either a point click win ( 3 NDK with other gubbins ) or a very tactics based game  ( 1 unit of termies no NDK and spammed strikes and interceptors  )

 

I play many diffrent people and I have found as a Pure Grey Knights list we can be upper middle tier but it depends on the draw of opponent and the game ( Eternal War / Malestrom )

 

I think for Malestrom we are actually one of the best armies and we can have mainy units teleporting accross the board or shunting across the board

 

in Eternal war we are definatly mid tabel, unfortunatly for all these games it is how you go about tailoring your lists or if you have a standard all comers 1500 as required by the GW Throne of Skulls

 

I have played from the Deamon Hunters dex all the way through to this one and I have to say we were rather spoiled in 5th Ed with all our shiney toys and i think its right that we have been toned down with our current edition although we could have done with keeping the named bods from the previous dex and having the true grit rule returned from the Deamon hunters dex would make me love the strikes ( at the mo I find them rather bland )

 

unfortunatly other players hear posible S6 AP3 weapons and they think cheese when it comes to grey knights they forget that we are always out numbered I recently played against a termi heavy BA list and my opponent still out numbered my by a 1/3 it was a close game but he did win in the end with only 7 models left on the board to my 5 by the end of turn 6

 

the game evolves and you may or may not want to evolve your lists with the evolution , but that dosnt mean that our army on its own cannot hold off a Tau spear head or an Eldar pirate attack we are a mid level codex with about the same amount of fire power as other codexes its just we all funnell down the NDK , Termi lists ,i have actually startedf playing 2500 points so i can run the Brotherhood and its amazing what you can do with it

[Zhukov]

Gentlemanloser, on 23 Mar 2015 - 10:12 PM, said:

Zhukov, so you're saying GW have intentionally nerfed the entire Imperium by designing the Forces of the Imperium around a bloated ally matrix?

Intentionally? No, why? It's the case arguably, yes, but I don't think intentionally, GW isn't that good with rules lol.

Oh and allying to yourself is still allying...

Edit: and a Deldar IC with a WWP doesn't make any Eldar list better? Honestly?

Edit2: Also, how many of those Tournaments above allowed an unlimited number of Detachments / Factions?

Adepticon was unlimited, LVO was 2. You were speaking about "single codex armies are dead", allying with yourself is still a single codex army

No, DE IC with portal doesn't necessarily make an Eldar list stronger. It's an option, but it costs you enough that it's not an auto-take.

I'm afraid you have caused offence. Mainly because you're accusing me of being a bad player, based on...what? I don't mind getting told I'm wrong, but I'd prefer you bring up facts or evidence as to why. Don't attack me, attack my arguments please.

Mate, I did not call you a bad player Huge difference between not being a really good (as in not a top player) and being bad lol. And it was a question, not a statement.

>anecdotes

Asking somebody to win a local event isn't? You're the one who seems interested in anecdotal evidence, I'm the one pointing out how pointless it is.

And I am attacking your opinions, not you. So not sure why you bring that up. You even reply to the things I point out where I think you're wrong... Did you reply in anger which made your reply sloppy?

Based on what? Because I can point to any number of tournaments with strong Tau placings in all of them. They're a ubiquitous part of the meta-game. If you can't see that, I honestly can't help you at all.

Read what I said, they've never won tournaments consistently. Aren't you the one needing to proof that they have if you disagree with that? Second part of your comment is needlessly agressive, don't be that guy, makes you look weak, especially when you feel the need to tell me that I have to attack your arguments.

Again, where is your evidence?

Evidence in this case is hard, so I prefer this: Who is more credible, the guy who has no problem winning against them or the guy who loses and then tells others how strong Tau are? Who is more credible, the guy who faces them in tournaments or the one who faces them in casual games?

I will always vote for the guy who does not call his own army too weak.

@Necrons: No use in having that kind of discussion, that's a 'yes', 'no' game. And again, from somebody who demands evidence and doesn't want anecdotal evidence... why doesn't that apply to yourself?

@Nids: You said their FMC's got nerfed hard. That's the point I attacked. Don't defend against things I didn't attack, that way you're shadowboxing.

I simply cannot take your opinions seriously if you don't post some evidence to back them up. Xenos don't dominate...yeah okay. Read the Necron book and tell me that with a straight face.

So I point out sources where you can check that Xenos don't dominate that hard and then... you reply with this? I'll just assume you were so offended that it made you angry, which impaired your judgement when replying to my post, you can do better than this, I'm sure of it.

I'll make it even easier then. They did an actual breakdown on the LVO. It's arguably one of the most competitive tournaments in the world and with a large enough playing field that it's worthwhile to look at the stats (~250 players) and it's recent, so relevant:

http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

Adepticon, a comparable event, is crappy with posting their results so can't link to the final results there (yet), sorry.

Also, before we end up in a silly discussion (actually let's be honest, it already is silly :P ): We might have different opinions on what's dominating hard, dominating etc... I find ~2/3 of the top spots being Xenos pretty normal for example. Dominating for me would be if top 10 spots for Imperial Armies are rare.

Please do. We need wins on the board. As I said, my expectations are realistic. I'm not asking for a major tourney. Just beat a reasonable field at a local event, and tell us how you did it.

Just for the record, you demand pure GK's?

Either way, I hope we're cool, because again, I did not mean offense! I just wanted you to think about the fact that maybe your opinions might be influenced a lot by your local experience. Also, you are probably familiar with Kirby (from the 3++ blog)? I know he organized some competitive tournaments in Australia. Apart from that, I indeed heard your comp at tournaments is annoying lol.

[Gentlemanloser]

Intentionally? No, why? It's the case arguably, yes, but I don't think intentionally, GW isn't that good with rules lol.

:D

Adepticon was unlimited, LVO was 2. You were speaking about "single codex armies are dead", allying with yourself is still a single codex army

/meh Granted, allying with yourself would have mattered in 6th, but with unlimited detachments anyway it's no longer an issue.

No, DE IC with portal doesn't necessarily make an Eldar list stronger. It's an option, but it costs you enough that it's not an auto-take.

What does it cost? two minimum warrior Squads, and maybe a DT for each?

Why doesn't every Eldar list have a Deldar WWP backed D-Scyth sacrifical unit? T6 with 3+ Saves can be hard to dislodge, and a no scatter DS with a weapon that removes any unit from the board (potentailly).

It's like the Flamers of old, and DP Sternguard on Steriods.

Why wouldn't you add it to your list?

[Prot]

I personally don't get into the stats too much as they can be so misleading....

 

Like saying 'marines' win more but you've got three guys using Knights as allies, but the marine player is just more competent with the Knights. To me the hero here is the Knights, but the primary army (marines in my example) is what is mentioned as the winning army.

 

Besides you should never ally with yourself too much... it can make you go crosseyed. That's what mom always said. Wait, maybe it wasn't allying she was talking about... anyway...

 

The reason I wanted to keep the discussion -within- the codex is because once you start talking outside of the codex, everything goes sideways. We could be talking about allies, bizarre formations and situations that greatly change the effectiveness of a codex.

 

I'm not going to debate whether I think it's a good idea or not but I think it's safest to talk about GK's as a codex. I know locally tournaments have folded up because they simply don't know the best way to proceed with the gong show that is allies/detachments... do you try to compensate with 'Comp'? Good luck with that. One codexes miracle slot is pure crap for the next guy. (As a Chaos player you could take my troops and flush them down the toilet for all I care.)

[Gentlemanloser]

Sorry, not to harp on about the point, but this deserves it's own post.

 

 

 

 I just wanted you to think about the fact that maybe your opinions might be influenced a lot by your local experience.

 

I think all our local environments are now so, individual, that as I said above, I feel this is what is leading to the wide differing opinions.

 

No other version of the game has been this diverse.

 

It could be seen as a positive, it could be seen as a negative.

 

The game is just so open and individual now.

 

 

Like saying 'marines' win more but you've got three guys using Knights as allies, but the marine player is just more competent with the Knights. To me the hero here is the Knights, but the primary army (marines in my example) is what is mentioned as the winning army.

 

This right here.

 

I've said it once, I'll say it agian.

 

What makes an Army *that* Army?

 

And should we even care to try to define this any more?

 

 

Edit: Pure GK?

 

We lack tools and options other Armies get.

 

That alone should highlight why we're not a 'top tier' army.  We literally do not have the tools to adapt to different situations, like other armies can.

 

We use our good stuff, and we use it for every occasion.  If our good stuff isn't up to scratch, oh well.

 

 

 

They did an actual breakdown on the LVO. It's arguably one of the most competitive tournaments in the world and with a large enough playing field that it's worthwhile to look at the stats (~250 players) and it's recent, so relevant:

 

But unlike Adepticon, they limited army builds to two factions.

 

That will skew any stats.

[Zhukov]

 

Why wouldn't you add it to your list?

 

Well, for one: Heamonculus + WWP is 105 points. You also have to take 5 Warriors along with it for a legal Allied detachment. Now the Warriors can be made somewhat usefull, but normally an Eldar player wouldn't take them, it still adds up to the cost at least to an extent. That's a lot of points for a, granted, pretty strong ability. So yeah, that's why. Then there is also the question if you need it to achieve what you need to achieve. The whole endeavour is so much points...

 

But unlike Adepticon, they limited army builds to two factions.

 

That will skew any stats.

It's won by a single detachment, regular CAD army :P

 

It can skew it, but how is hard to say. More detachments also doesn't necessarily translate into a stronger list. You only have so many points, people tend to forget that. Some codices have so many strong options and synergy, they don't benefit from a lot of detachments, because it simply takes away points which they could otherwise spend on good choices in their own codex.

[ChaoticEric]

Would you guys be OK with an update that toned them both down? But in return slightly made other units better?

I don't think they need to make any changes in the fundamental way the gk work rules-wise, they could do it all by aligning the points cost for some units. A points drop across the entire power armour range of gk would go a long way in improving the internal balance in my opinion.

 

Oh, and give the grand master 4w. How come every freaking chapter master of normal marines get 4w but a grand master in the most bad-ass of chapters only get 3w? Stupid...

[jeffersonian000]

All of our guys should be WS5 and have True-Grit, like they use they use to. And each of our PA should have a unique role within the army that makes not taking them a tough choice. GKSS lack utility for their points, while Purgators have a useless ability. Giving both unique abilities that rival their slot competition. Having to make a tough choice between GKT and GKSS makes the selection a personal decision, rather than a no-brainer. The same can be said for the DK, the Land Raider, and the Purgators. We actually have that already with GKIS and the SR.

 

How should they be made unique? No idea.

 

Giving Strikes Infiltrate has merit, but does not feel right to some. Warp Quake was great, and if the decision was 33ppm GKT or Warp Quake GKSS, that would be a personal choice. But Watp Quake does not exist this edition. Purgators have the totally inappropriate Night Fighting ability, which is useless on models with 24" range weapons, although their previous Astral Aim ability was next to useless, as well. Maybe both Strikes and Purgatirs should have cheaper special weapons? Free Psycannons, Psilencers, and Incinerators on Strikes and Purgators would make me think twice on not takng them. Free Rhino on Strikes, with 15py Razorback upgrade, or 100pt Land Raider upgrade would breath new life into GK vehicles from my point of view. What if Strikes could take Stirmraves as Dedicated Transports?

 

All I'm saying is that meaningful choices are what's needed, not necessarily fixing what people think is broken.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Free specials wouldn't help Strikes and Purgators with the new Salvo Psycannons.

 

Purgators would be made instantly viable with an Psychic Powers (heck still call it Astral Aim) that does one of;

 

Increases Range of guns by 12" (Torrent Template Weapons)

Gives Interceptor/Skyfire

Gives Relentless

 

As for Strikes, you have to decide what their role is.  That's why I like Infiltrate/Scout for them.  They aren't wearing TDA (which they *could* be) because the smaller PA lets them get into position before the rest of the Strike Force.

 

Give a Strike Justicar the option of a Locator Beacon instead of the mostly useless TH.  And make ours specifically work with Gate, the Raven and non TDA units Deep Striking.

 

We have our 'scouts' that are more durable than usual Chapters.

 

You can't make Strikes faster, as we have Interceptors for exactly that.  You can't make them shootier, as we have Purgators.  You can't make them more durable, that's covered by TDA.  You can't make them more choppy, Purifiers.

 

There's not really much left to make them unique and wanted.  Other than Infiltrate/Scout.

[Dread]

How much I missed coming here. Lots of good pro's and con's. What I see mostly is great advice both ways to help me play mine, so I say thanks to all of you.

[Gentlemanloser]

And yes, I'd love to see;

A Purgation Squad with 36" Range Psycannons manning a Comms Rely. Supporting some Infiltrated Strike units deep into enemy Territory. Which are providing no scatter drops for TDA units coming in first turn through the Nemesis Strike Force, Deep Striking, running then shooting.

While not being a Sanctic Power, I'd actually give Strikes the Shrouded power as their unique unit one.

A nod back to our old selves.

I'd also probably give them an upgrade to purchase camo cloaks. ;) But that might be going a touch too far. :P