How would you rank the 'power' of the GK Codex?

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

No it's not. We look at competitive rankings in real tournaments, that actually happened. That's the true measure of a codex. Is it placing highly? Maybe only as an Ally, which is an indictment of it's internal balance (like GK for example). But it's very clear looking at tournament rankings who the top dogs are. It's aliens and Daemons. 

 

 

GK had the highest win percentage at LVO; 4th highest points average at Adepticon with its different format and lots of maelstrom. I am really not at all sure where you get such a clear idea from that contradicts the mass of results at these big tournaments - care to share your data sources with us?

 

As for allies - GK have been spamming allies since 5th because they were right there in the book. I'd say the only possible issue is the cost of another book; which seems like a non-issue for big tournament players already paying for air fares and hotel rooms. Humanity Resplendent is the way of 7th - Imperial forces are one huge battle brothers mega-faction. You don't have to play it that way but don't pretend that the allies matrix is not part of the rules and not relevant to the potential power of combinations made available.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Yeah you don't play the army, so no. We roll on Divination.

 

 

You do, not everyone else does or at least not rigidly all the time. As you appear to lose hard to Tau you will forgive those of us who do not find them unbeatable if we ignore your advice and views on Tau.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Just throwing this out there, but i played against sisters the other day, and it was a really close game, i will admit i did cockily swagger towards them after DS scatter but that "organ gun tank" turns termies into mulch, i do agree they are still low tier but they do have more promise than some you rated higher, for example Harlys? mid tier ? na no way man, my GKs can shoot them to death before they reach combat, the only decent thing in that dex is the Solitaire which is in fairness a total beast, also chaos bottom mid tier? hell no, lord on bike with axe of blind fury ? If you roll well on the boons table hes possibly the single most destructive HQ ive ever played against, stick him with some melta bikers and there is not a unit in the game that will survive them, i grant you a good turn of shooting with hurt them but if they get into range to shoot and charge they will cause complete chaos, and being that there on bike theres a good chance even a half decent chaos player can hug cover for a turn or two to get them where he wants them to be. That plus helldrakes, oblits? Id rate chaos top mid tier. Also a Dark eldar list that includes coven units is not a force to laugh at, the coven units somewhat help the "glass cannon" that is dark eldar become a good bit more sturdy meaning they can bring there splinter racks to bear!!!. Finally, i dont find Tau a super hard match up for my guys ive won maybe 70% of my games against them, that said i recon Zhukov should really think before goes as far as to comment on you personally as a player, it could just be your local meta has some damn tough Tau players, everyones experience is different depending on who they play against regularly.

[Eisenhardt]

I

[Prot]

Just throwing this out there, but i played against sisters the other day, and it was a really close game, i will admit i did cockily swagger towards them after DS scatter but that "organ gun tank" turns termies into mulch, i do agree they are still low tier but they do have more promise than some you rated higher, for example Harlys? mid tier ? na no way man, my GKs can shoot them to death before they reach combat, the only decent thing in that dex is the Solitaire which is in fairness a total beast, also chaos bottom mid tier? hell no, lord on bike with axe of blind fury ? If you roll well on the boons table hes possibly the single most destructive HQ ive ever played against, stick him with some melta bikers and there is not a unit in the game that will survive them, i grant you a good turn of shooting with hurt them but if they get into range to shoot and charge they will cause complete chaos, and being that there on bike theres a good chance even a half decent chaos player can hug cover for a turn or two to get them where he wants them to be. That plus helldrakes, oblits? Id rate chaos top mid tier. Also a Dark eldar list that includes coven units is not a force to laugh at, the coven units somewhat help the "glass cannon" that is dark eldar become a good bit more sturdy meaning they can bring there splinter racks to bear!!!. Finally, i dont find Tau a super hard match up for my guys ive won maybe 70% of my games against them, that said i recon Zhukov should really think before goes as far as to comment on you personally as a player, it could just be your local meta has some damn tough Tau players, everyones experience is different depending on who they play against regularly.

 

You know what you're saying here is basically every codex has a significant unit or two in it. Which I'll completely agree with.

 

Overall there's no way I'd put Chaos in the same sentence as Eldar. (even though I just did!)

 

Sometimes you just face your magic bullet too. I love seeing a tournament where one guy just doesn't care about meta, and he's bringing out the one thing no one wants to face for some reason or another.

 

The thing that drew me to GK is they are very assault competent and not necessarily relying on pods/rhino's to get there. On the side, they do an all right job of handling horde style stuff where my Chaos and Dark Angels always had such issues with that.

 

Chaos has no real delivery system. So you can mention that awesome biker unit, which is fine, I'm not going to argue Chaos -can- put a competent bike squad together, but is it Captain America/Grav-bike as troops good? Probably not. And now you have to worry about the rest of the list building issues... overpriced bad troops, etc. That bike squad has a tax you're not mentioning.

 

Chaos has some very fun elements to it, and some flashy tricks, but I strongly believe vanilla, cheap drop pods, would change the dynamic of that army entirely. So you could say 'mechanics' also change the output of the army. Grey Knights have very little use for pods, or even Rhino's. Even the lowliest of Grey Knight feels competent. I don't have a 'Cultist' tax, or a goofy mark mechanism that costs an arm and a leg. The Grey Knights are expensive though, but it feels like the 'tax' for them is for something tangible... all of them are competent.

[calvin the wraithlord]

God i agree, id never put chaos on the same level as Eldar, but i would defiantly put them higher than RD has on his chart, one thing i actually forgot to mention in my post above that really gets me about alot of GK players is this whole "we are an ally codex" i can honestly say i have never ran my GKs as anything other than a pure GK list and ive lost to date 6 games out of over 40, If im honest i just get so annoyed when other GK players put such limitations on our codex just because we dont have a huge variety of units doesn't make us weak!!  As you said we have our own" niche" if you will, i mean were a chapter of HEROS !!! and again Like you said every codex has its OP units, and every codex has its limits/weaknesses, although that being said some armies are without doubt much better than others, but to rate ours as an ally codex  actually just frustrates me beyond belief!! I shall leave it at that! This is just my Opinion i dont mean to offend anyone, i am a player that thrives more on narrative and story telling that anything else but that said i am still a competitive player that honestly believes that despite MANY our faults we are a solid force that should always be feared on the table 

[jeffersonian000]

I generally play pure GK, unless I want to add one Knight Errant. As far as I'm concerned, GK are solid on their own. Of course, I don't use the units that require allied help to work, such as Purifiers. What I do take and focus on are the units that synergize with the formation rules, Librarians, GKT, NDK, GKIS, and Draigo. GK are designed to play Maelstrom, to dominate the Psychic phase, and to bounce 2+/5++ armor all over the table as needed. We have no need to ally, unless we want to.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Okay, this is just me, I realize this, BUT I'm not going to ally with anything outside of what I consider 'things Grey Knights would leverage' in a normal game. In mega-battles? Sure. I'm certain I will use my Ultra's alongside... maybe my Deathwing too.

 

I do plan on using my Fire Raptor and Sicaran tank with the GK's if I don't sell them first.

 

That being said, you may see me using the odd assassin in a batrep, but otherwise no allying for this guy. And that's partially why I'm playing this army.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Of course, I don't use the units that require allied help to work, such as Purifiers. What I do take and focus on are the units that synergize with the formation rules, Librarians, GKT, NDK, GKIS, and Draigo. GK are designed to play Maelstrom, to dominate the Psychic phase, and to bounce 2+/5++ armor all over the table as needed. We have no need to ally, unless we want to.

 

SJ

 

How exactly do purifiers need allies to work? The work amazingly in a pure GK list, combat squad-ed in rhinos, LRs and SRs, they are devastating, like i said i have never used allies yet i run puries in every list and they wreak other players :cuss ! 

[jeffersonian000]

Rhinos are bad, Razors are bad, Raiders are too expensive, and Ravens force you to get too close. Pods are perfect for Purifier perfection, particularly with proficient protection provided by their prolific providers; ie, the Blood Angel's Flesh Tearer formation that allows for 5 Fast slot Drop Pods.

 

GK lack Pods, Purifiers lack precision Deep Strike, so therefore Allies.

 

SJ

[calvin the wraithlord]

Rhinos are bad, Razors are bad, Raiders are too expensive, and Ravens force you to get too close. Pods are perfect for Purifier perfection, particularly with proficient protection provided by their prolific providers; ie, the Blood Angel's Flesh Tearer formation that allows for 5 Fast slot Drop Pods.

 

GK lack Pods, Purifiers lack precision Deep Strike, so therefore Allies.

 

SJ

 

Going to have to strongly disagree with you there man, its not something  i do but purifiers in rhinos is a really widely used combo due to cleansing flame out of hatches, personally ive always run them in a raven with huge success, i understand what you getting at about using them in pods and it working well but i honestly can never see a situation where its completely a must, the way your phrasing it is as if drop pods are the only option, which its just extremely close minded, and would be quite the points sink in an army like ours, something we can afford especially since we now get force weapons tax, also its something GKs would NEVER do. Just my two cents 

[Everon]

Rhinos are bad, Razors are bad, Raiders are too expensive, and Ravens force you to get too close. Pods are perfect for Purifier perfection, particularly with proficient protection provided by their prolific providers; ie, the Blood Angel's Flesh Tearer formation that allows for 5 Fast slot Drop Pods.

 

GK lack Pods, Purifiers lack precision Deep Strike, so therefore Allies.

 

SJ

But if you Allie, aren't you stuck with the Allie detachment which means only 2 fast attack slots?

[Gentlemanloser]

Nope.

 

You can use any type of Detachment that is available to that faction.

 

CAD, AD, or any faction specific one.

 

The Space Wolves have a few.  As do the Blood Angels.

[jeffersonian000]

I don't Ally, other than to add the occasional Knight-Titan, so the point is moot. However, the lack of mobility inherent with Purifiers keeps them out of my lists.

 

SJ

[Prot]

This is one army, aside from my Ultra's that I could see really using a Knight. I've never used one, but I also have a spot for my Sicaran and Fire Raptor... but overall I love having the Grey Knights on the table, front and center. I just see these... allies as robbing me of that opportunity. 

 

So admittedly, maybe I'm better off with BA 'fast attack' drop pods, or gating Centurions... It just feels dirty. And perhaps if you want to take the fluff side, working that close with Ultra Centurions may result in mind wiping them afterwards. lol

 

On a side note one kind of formation I keep thinking would be really worth exploring with grey Knights is the Stormraven + 2 Stormtalons. I have the models to pull it off, and it does fill a lot of gaps. I'd love to try it.

[Everon]

Today I did a 500 point game in a 6 way free for all, fielding a librarian, a dreadknight with hvy pys hvy inc and a 5 man termie with 4 hallys 1 hammer and a pys. Turn one I massacred the Necron player who had one of their formations with the 3 tombs, a spider, a necron lord and the little scarabs. After that I spent 2 turns chasing them then quit, every player on the board did nothing but run to make sure I couldn't get in shooting range or melee. But the math I calculated, by turn 5 they would have killed off 3 players, before I would have a chance to get close too melee range. When a bystander asked why every one said "F that, he can just massacre us all". The other players had nids who had a Dimachareon a carnifex and some other bugs i cant remember, 2 chaos on bikes, necrons with their formation and salamanders rollen with a dread and bikes.

 

If were weakest at such low points, and 5 guys were too worried to tag team up ad against me, but spent more effort in running away then even shooting at each other, I'd say were pretty alright on the power scale. Are we super powerful, no. I still believe we got made to be every ones best friend ally codex and recieved the sisterhood treatment, but we still have a decent amount of strength to us. Yes it was the boring mono build but it won out. Technical loss, but when you make others just hide and hope for the best, safe to say thats a win.

[Aethernitas]

I don't really keep track of my games but I have yet to loose a game with my GKs since the new codex arrived. Up to around 1500 pts I usually play them pure with the very rare exception of a small AM vets detachment in chimeras posing as Inquisitorial Stormtrooper for my inquisitor and acting as backfield scoring troops and mobile melter-squads. Over 1500 pts those Inquisiton troops are pretty much always in.

 

Our meta is definitely not the most competitive but we have our share of tournament players and - what I enjoy most - a great mix of every army there is except for BA and DA. I'm the only GK player in our gaming group and most folks here are playing TAC so there is little to no tailoring.

 

For me GKs are far from the upper echelons of the tier-table - imo those belong to daemons, space communists and star elves. Necrons I'm still undecided about. Pure knights I would rank in the solid to good midfield tier. GKs with allies are a little higher but not by very much as in and of themself GKs function quite well with the NSF detachment which for me is the truest and fluffiest way to field them.

[Prot]

Well I've only lost one game with my Necrons since the codex came out and quite honestly I had to dumb the list down so much  I wasn't even close to using a Decurion.

 

Granted I may not be sharp with my Grey Knights yet, but I keep making old Ultramarine 1850 lists that on paper look like they'd blow the poop out of my GK lists. My biggest problem is getting over the model debt ratio.

 

Everyone I play is moving away from elite style armies (Which I think plays right into GK hands) towards spammy, cruddy, throw fistfulls of dice at you, sort of stuff. With Ultra's I can play either game. I can divide my list well into taking apart a spammy list or an elite list without changing my lists very much. 

 

Now I admit this may mean I simply don't know how to make that adjustment with GK yet. But so far I'm 1-2, which I have a very respectable win record with my other armies.  So far my adjustments are moving more towards countering spam....

 

I am thinking as neato factor the Dreadknights are, they just don't really work for me yet. I actually think a Combat Squaded Purifier will bring much more to my meta with 4 WC's and a pair of Cleansing Flames guaranteed. If I get more on the Libby, it'll be a bonus. 

 

Someone said you can cast Cleansing Flame from a rhino? I didn't know this so it might even come into play for me once I get this stuff put together. I'll probably keep the DreadKnights for now, but I can't see going over two because again, if you get wounded with 10 lootas, and 10 Tank Bustas.... 2+ just doesn't mean much.... 

 

I've also changed both Dreadknights to Heavy Incins and Heavy Psy (instead of my Tyranid loving H.Psilencer loadout which was really fun.)

 

I need abilities that can hit open topped vehicles for 'Crons, Battlewagon Orks (who cares about the AV14 if I can roast the turkeys inside?) and Boat Deldar. So I'm thinking Cleansing Flame is the way to go....

 

I also have to lighten the HQ's. But I've gotta try Draigo. He is just too cool not to get some shots at a few games. :)

 

I do miss my Cents, Thunderfires, and twin Stormtalons for this role, but there's gotta be a way without allying for me to get over this hurdle.

[Everon]

Pure gk is one of the hardest armies to play. I'm the only person in my meta who does pure. Very few others play go but when they do its as an ally detach. There is a way over every hurdle but its not easy. For me, I usually bring a lland raider as my sacrificial goat. Always dies but protects my dreads

[Aethernitas]

[...]

 

Everyone I play is moving away from elite style armies (Which I think plays right into GK hands) towards spammy, cruddy, throw fistfulls of dice at you, sort of stuff. With Ultra's I can play either game. I can divide my list well into taking apart a spammy list or an elite list without changing my lists very much. 

 

Now I admit this may mean I simply don't know how to make that adjustment with GK yet. But so far I'm 1-2, which I have a very respectable win record with my other armies.  So far my adjustments are moving more towards countering spam....

 

[...]

 

I am thinking as neato factor the Dreadknights are, they just don't really work for me yet. I actually think a Combat Squaded Purifier will bring much more to my meta with 4 WC's and a pair of Cleansing Flames guaranteed. If I get more on the Libby, it'll be a bonus.

 

Everything in this thread aside - the local meta is of course the overwhelmingly deciding factor of what goes and what doesn't. If your meta consists of only Nid players running across the board with metric ****tons of gaunts then even Purgation Squads can be a legit choice. The most effective option we have against spammy/horde armies are of course Purifiers with Cleansing Flame. Combat squad them and put both squads in a Stormraven. As soon as that bird lands those horde armies will suddenly burn to a much more managable size :P

 

The Dreadknights sure are one of if not the best unit we have. That said I usually play one, very rarely two and sometimes I skip them alltogether if I think I can get away with it. Thats the luxury of playing in a only semi-competitive meta. If your gaming group has an abundance of regular tournament players and players field very streamlined armies you should probably stick to at least a pair of DKs. Their weapon options are varied enough to be effective against a lot of units but they have to be used in different ways against different armies.

 

Pure gk is one of the hardest armies to play. I'm the only person in my meta who does pure. Very few others play go but when they do its as an ally detach. There is a way over every hurdle but its not easy. For me, I usually bring a lland raider as my sacrificial goat. Always dies but protects my dreads

 

Do you mind to elaborate what makes pure GKs so hard to play in your opinion? I'm honestly interested what you perceive as the most difficult aspects of a pure GK force.

[Prot]

I know everyone is very hot on the Dreadknights. I understand why... I guess if I plopped a ton more terrain down and played more elite lists, I'd probably see a little more mileage out of them.

 

Right now I stand at 2. I just actually realized by going to 3, I'd have to drop my Strike Force formation which only allows for 2 heavies!

 

I'm keeping both in the list, but I really can't see going beyond that. The lack of models on the table plus these guys are sitting just under Landraider points.... lol

 

But yea, I have new boxes of purifiers sitting around. They're next on the chopping block!

[Darkmagi]

I know everyone is very hot on the Dreadknights. I understand why... I guess if I plopped a ton more terrain down and played more elite lists, I'd probably see a little more mileage out of them.

 

Right now I stand at 2. I just actually realized by going to 3, I'd have to drop my Strike Force formation which only allows for 2 heavies!

 

I'm keeping both in the list, but I really can't see going beyond that. The lack of models on the table plus these guys are sitting just under Landraider points.... lol

 

But yea, I have new boxes of purifiers sitting around. They're next on the chopping block!

Well you could just add a 2nd detachment, as the NSF only requires 1 hq and 1 troop you can easily just add another detachment to add more dreadknights.

[Everon]

 

 

[...]

 

Everyone I play is moving away from elite style armies (Which I think plays right into GK hands) towards spammy, cruddy, throw fistfulls of dice at you, sort of stuff. With Ultra's I can play either game. I can divide my list well into taking apart a spammy list or an elite list without changing my lists very much.

 

Now I admit this may mean I simply don't know how to make that adjustment with GK yet. But so far I'm 1-2, which I have a very respectable win record with my other armies. So far my adjustments are moving more towards countering spam....

 

[...]

 

I am thinking as neato factor the Dreadknights are, they just don't really work for me yet. I actually think a Combat Squaded Purifier will bring much more to my meta with 4 WC's and a pair of Cleansing Flames guaranteed. If I get more on the Libby, it'll be a bonus.

Everything in this thread aside - the local meta is of course the overwhelmingly deciding factor of what goes and what doesn't. If your meta consists of only Nid players running across the board with metric ****tons of gaunts then even Purgation Squads can be a legit choice. The most effective option we have against spammy/horde armies are of course Purifiers with Cleansing Flame. Combat squad them and put both squads in a Stormraven. As soon as that bird lands those horde armies will suddenly burn to a much more managable size :P

 

The Dreadknights sure are one of if not the best unit we have. That said I usually play one, very rarely two and sometimes I skip them alltogether if I think I can get away with it. Thats the luxury of playing in a only semi-competitive meta. If your gaming group has an abundance of regular tournament players and players field very streamlined armies you should probably stick to at least a pair of DKs. Their weapon options are varied enough to be effective against a lot of units but they have to be used in different ways against different armies.

Pure gk is one of the hardest armies to play. I'm the only person in my meta who does pure. Very few others play go but when they do its as an ally detach. There is a way over every hurdle but its not easy. For me, I usually bring a lland raider as my sacrificial goat. Always dies but protects my dreads

Do you mind to elaborate what makes pure GKs so hard to play in your opinion? I'm honestly interested what you perceive as the most difficult aspects of a pure GK force.

Of course. A few items actually.

1. Low model count

2. Not a lot of selection

3. Unit expense

4. Lack of Ap weaponry

5. Lack or ranged weaponry

6. Lack of anti air (with out a non mobile gun that holds back a crucial unit or a 200 pt minimum flyer that is never guaranteed to come in when needed)

7. Lack of anti armor.

8. Relies on non reliable deep strike to be effective

[Aethernitas]

 

Of course. A few items actually.
1. Low model count
2. Not a lot of selection
3. Unit expense
4. Lack of Ap weaponry
5. Lack or ranged weaponry
6. Lack of anti air (with out a non mobile gun that holds back a crucial unit or a 200 pt minimum flyer that is never guaranteed to come in when needed)
7. Lack of anti armor.
8. Relies on non reliable deep strike to be effective

 

 

I would actually attribute most of those points to the concept and character of the GKs as an army with it's inherent weaknesses and strengths which for me are not inherently linked to the skillcap of an army.

There are also those aspects that are all about chances like deep strike and even low model count as I would argue that if points were perfectly balanced and rolls would be perfectly average it shouldn't really matter in the grand scheme of a battle if you field many cheap models or few expensive ones as results should average out. With Grey Knights it makes a huuuuge difference if you roll those ones on armoursaves instead of your to hit rolls.

 

Generally I find that many GK players are draw to GKs because of their elitist flair and that flair is anchored exclusivly in the fluff. That said the elitist theme seems to spill over into the actual games played so that GKs are often perceived as a elitist or masterclass army because of all the wrong reasons.

 

So I guess I agree that GKs are harder to play than the bulk of GWs armies but imo they a good stretch from the top. The reason for me that GKs are actually challenging to play is the fact that they are generalists with many strength (which we pay a lot of points for) and few weaknesses and for that they give you a lot of options for decision making. The constant weighing of possibilities and the unforgiving nature of wrong decisions is what draws me to the army.

[jeffersonian000]

So I guess I agree that GKs are harder to play than the bulk of GWs armies but imo they a good stretch from the top. The reason for me that GKs are actually challenging to play is the fact that they are generalists with many strength (which we pay a lot of points for) and few weaknesses and for that they give you a lot of options for decision making. The constant weighing of possibilities and the unforgiving nature of wrong decisions is what draws me to the army.

I concur, although for me that's what defines a master class army.

 

SJ