Remtek Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Been looking at some solid alternatives for the troop slot. My impressions so far are tacticals are effective for delivering heavy flamers/plasma while scouts focus on close combat The sergeant being bs4 and having the option of taking combi weapons seems like an effective way to deliver grav. 5 scouts with a combi-grav clocks in at just under 70 points, can infiltrate turn 1 and get the full salvo or be reserved/outflanked depending on matchup. This gives them good synergi with either drop pod/alpha lists or units moving up the board. Another option would be 10man units with one combi-grav and combat squadded to help in kill point missions, but with maelstorm and mostly objective missions i'm not sure which is stronger. For less then 400 points you can run 6 scout units getting 18 grav-shots off turn one, post alpha they will support other units with assaulting and objective holding, if you go second you have 4 cheap ablaitive wounds your opponent has to chew through before he can stop the grav. Havent tried in a real game yet, only barebone close combat scouts (which i have been pleased with), but right off the bat i'm seing multiple ways of playing them vs different list. Even if opponent if running cheap blobs they still can immobilize veichles or simply assault having 14 str 5 attacks each on the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspecti Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Realistically speaking, you wont be able to infiltrate most of them closer than 18" from your opponent's models. That leaves you barely in range, grav guns having 18" range. Now if you move, your range is 9", thus leaving you out of range completely. Being that close on turn one also leaves you vulnerable to the enemy assault units, 18" is quite a short distance if he has bikes or jump troops so there is a good chance your scouts will get charged on the first turn, letting your opponent 'slingshot' his assault units forward almost for free. Personally I would never use grav guns on non-relentless units, losing half of the already short range and falling down to only two shots is just too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Loving this idea. People say putting a Powerfist on a scout is a waste of points, but I love my PF Scout sgt, maybe I'll have the same luck with a combi-grav. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I think putting a combi-grav on your troop tax scout sergeants is a good idea, but its not strong enough to build a whole list around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Realistically speaking, you wont be able to infiltrate most of them closer than 18" from your opponent's models. That leaves you barely in range, grav guns having 18" range. Now if you move, your range is 9", thus leaving you out of range completely. Being that close on turn one also leaves you vulnerable to the enemy assault units, 18" is quite a short distance if he has bikes or jump troops so there is a good chance your scouts will get charged on the first turn, letting your opponent 'slingshot' his assault units forward almost for free. Personally I would never use grav guns on non-relentless units, losing half of the already short range and falling down to only two shots is just too much. I might be wrong, but you can infiltrate 18" away then scout move 6" and it does not count as moving (full salvo and range). Edit: That is why you want only 5 or combat squads, if some get assaulted the other scout squads counter assault. If your podding stuff in you really don't mind loosing a few scout squads. Another option vs assault heavy armies would to outflank scouts and slowplay the rest of the armies for a turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 I think putting a combi-grav on your troop tax scout sergeants is a good idea, but its not strong enough to build a whole list around. I'm not sure on this either, i'm thinking maybe around 3 units. They would atleast need to be CAD/obsec if running more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 if he has bikes there is a good chance your scouts will get charged on the first turn, letting your opponent 'slingshot' his assault units forward almost for free. Not if the scouts are up somewhere high. Bikes are like Dalecks, they can't do stairs. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Actually, there's nothing in 7th to say that. If it's ruins, they just need to pass a Dangerous Terrain test. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Wouldn't combat squadding a unit as easy to kill as some close combat scouts be bad in a kill points game? Instead of one point when they inevitably get shot to pieces they get two Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspecti Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Realistically speaking, you wont be able to infiltrate most of them closer than 18" from your opponent's models. That leaves you barely in range, grav guns having 18" range. Now if you move, your range is 9", thus leaving you out of range completely. Being that close on turn one also leaves you vulnerable to the enemy assault units, 18" is quite a short distance if he has bikes or jump troops so there is a good chance your scouts will get charged on the first turn, letting your opponent 'slingshot' his assault units forward almost for free. Personally I would never use grav guns on non-relentless units, losing half of the already short range and falling down to only two shots is just too much. I might be wrong, but you can infiltrate 18" away then scout move 6" and it does not count as moving (full salvo and range). Edit: That is why you want only 5 or combat squads, if some get assaulted the other scout squads counter assault. If your podding stuff in you really don't mind loosing a few scout squads. Another option vs assault heavy armies would to outflank scouts and slowplay the rest of the armies for a turn. I must say I completely forgot scout move. That in mind, it does actually sound like an interesting trick to try out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Wouldn't combat squadding a unit as easy to kill as some close combat scouts be bad in a kill points game? Instead of one point when they inevitably get shot to pieces they get two That would be the benifit of taking 10, so you can opt to combat squad or not depending on mission. The drawback is only 1 combi-grav per 10. Kill points are pretty rare though, even if your not playing maelstorm and a lot of tournaments that have kill point missions also include maelstorm as secondary objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Realistically speaking, you wont be able to infiltrate most of them closer than 18" from your opponent's models. That leaves you barely in range, grav guns having 18" range. Now if you move, your range is 9", thus leaving you out of range completely. Being that close on turn one also leaves you vulnerable to the enemy assault units, 18" is quite a short distance if he has bikes or jump troops so there is a good chance your scouts will get charged on the first turn, letting your opponent 'slingshot' his assault units forward almost for free. Personally I would never use grav guns on non-relentless units, losing half of the already short range and falling down to only two shots is just too much. I might be wrong, but you can infiltrate 18" away then scout move 6" and it does not count as moving (full salvo and range). Edit: That is why you want only 5 or combat squads, if some get assaulted the other scout squads counter assault. If your podding stuff in you really don't mind loosing a few scout squads. Another option vs assault heavy armies would to outflank scouts and slowplay the rest of the armies for a turn. I must say I completely forgot scout move. That in mind, it does actually sound like an interesting trick to try out. Don't worry, everyone forgets the Scout move :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 This definitely sounds like an interesting idea Remtek. Not a bad way to get a bit more out of the troop tax if running a list that is built around other slots. What do you think is the best weapon load out for the rest of the squad? Bolsters, shotguns, or BP/CCW? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I like how rifles don't even make the list for consideration this edition. I'd say boltguns, if you're shooting first turn you might as well pile it on. Half the stuff you'll be shooting grav guns at won't be hurt by them, but afaik they're still used for killing 2+ heavy infantry and a bolter or two could help force some saves? Plus, once you've fired the grav the sergeant will have a boltgun anyway, so. Once you've fired the grav the squad is probably dead so idk why I'm bringing turn 2 stuff up, actually. Since shotguns and pistols are both 12" and you're unlikely to be in range with those with your scout move, they're probably largely irrelevant anyway? I mean this squad is going to die, right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Scout biker sergeants . They aren't troops but you'll get a relentless grav with scout and infiltrate on the cheap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Good point Knife and Fork. I'm more interested in this idea as a way of making troop-tax scounts slightly more useful. @A Kvit Ghost -- that's a good point. I guess it doesn't matter too much; just go with whatever you think looks coolest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Scout biker sergeants . They aren't troops but you'll get a relentless grav with scout and infiltrate on the cheap. I wondered about that. I'd love a reason to get a scout bike squad because I like the minis a lot, too. Fast attack slots, though..? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 What do you think is the best weapon load out for the rest of the squad? Bolsters, shotguns, or BP/CCW? I'd say BP/CCW. On turn 1, the scout sergeant stays put, but the rest of the guys move up to threaten a charge on T2. Whomever is left when they get to assault will need as much punch as possible. Could possibly mix in a shotgun or two at the front of the squad to get an extra shot off without screwing yourself over for T2 in case he survives. Something like: -Scout Sergeant: Combi-grav, Shotgun (is that legal? I think it is but not 100% sure), meltabomb if you're feeling spendy. -2-3 Scouts with BP/CCW -1-2 Scouts with Shotguns One thing I'd say, though: I wouldn't expand the points for the combigrav until I had completed every other aspect of my list. Sometimes those 10 pts will allow you to buy something that is of greater importance. Something to keep in mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Scout biker sergeants . They aren't troops but you'll get a relentless grav with scout and infiltrate on the cheap. I wondered about that. I'd love a reason to get a scout bike squad because I like the minis a lot, too. Fast attack slots, though..? Flest Tearer Strike Force. Six FA slots, and access to the (admittedly almost entirely mediocre) Flesh Tearers relics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3986827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 I like how rifles don't even make the list for consideration this edition. I'd say boltguns, if you're shooting first turn you might as well pile it on. Half the stuff you'll be shooting grav guns at won't be hurt by them, but afaik they're still used for killing 2+ heavy infantry and a bolter or two could help force some saves? Plus, once you've fired the grav the sergeant will have a boltgun anyway, so. Once you've fired the grav the squad is probably dead so idk why I'm bringing turn 2 stuff up, actually. Since shotguns and pistols are both 12" and you're unlikely to be in range with those with your scout move, they're probably largely irrelevant anyway? I mean this squad is going to die, right. I think it really depends on how many scouts you bring and if you are bringing pods or moving up the table. If your playing vs a mid range shooty army like Necrons it won't cost them anything to kill the scouts while still advancing since they will be out of range for anything else regardless, versus armies like that i'd be inclined to outflank all the Scouts so everything arrives at the same time. BP/CCW or Shotguns seem ideal, but ws3>bs3 and the str 5 will probably be more useful if they are not sacrificed just to get the grav shot off. Five combat scouts do over 3 hull points on avg assaulting a Wave Serpent, even if they are fast you can create a lot of bubbles they need to avoid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3987086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I like the idea a lot. It has a lot of merrit. Remtek you have a knack for comming up with solid BA ideas just want to say thanks to you and all others who post these ideas instead of cackiling madly at your own brilliance daily wishing your life away till that next tournement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-3988169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Digging this thread back up because I'm going to try this idea out - how would you recommend actually making grav scout minis? I'm not seeing any kind of easy conversion. Also, has anyone given this a shot this since the topic first circulated, and did it work? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-4013765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 Just finished painting 10 scouts, but i havent started on the combi ones. The normal scout box comes with bolters, just cut off at hand and replace with combi-grav from tactical box. Not sure if you don't have the tactical box leftover's but thats what i did with bike sarge. No playtesting yet, last weekend we did some funky 250point team games.. :) I'm liking scouts in general though and i can't see any issues with combi-gravs making their points back and then some on avg. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-4014269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Let us know when you play test em, I am keen to hear how they go. Also saw a recent list heavy on cqc scouts in 10 man squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-4014542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Tried out the Heavy Bolter scout for the first time in my last game. I had somhow overlooked the fact that they can take hellfire rounds. :D Gonna be fun to 4 squads of sniper scouts with a hellfire HB in each squad against tyranids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305071-scouts-and-grav-weapons-alternative-to-bikes/#findComment-4014556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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