Insights for prospective DA player

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

So, as the title says, I'm a prospective Dark Angels players. I've been playing for a couple years now with the Raven Guard, and I stumbled upon the first figurine I've ever painted back when I was a kid, which was an ugly ass Dark Angels sergeant.

 

I really like the flavour of the Dark Angels, and I'm considering starting another army now that my Raven Guard is complete and competitive on the table. As such, I'm really interesting about your insights, mainly tactical, on building and playing a Dark Angels army !

What I particularly like about the Dark Angels is the flavour of their elite units and the special rules they have with them. They truly feel like badass knights of an already badass chapter !

 

From what I've gathered through my silent investigation on this subforum(you can't deny the Raven Guard gene seed here...), I've seen the following general recommendations :

- Going with a full Deathwing or full Ravenwing is risky, because of the cost per model meaning it either goes very well or very badly

- A mixed wing approach is apparently efficient : a steady and steadfast Greenwing component supported by small elite units.

- Synergy between units is key, you want each unit working alongside other units, benefitting from each others' strengths.

- Anti-air is quite lacking in the Dark Angels Codex

- Take heavy use of the Chapter Relics, especially the Standards

 

In general, what are your recommendations ?

 

Cheers !

[Stoic Raptor]

I just got into DA a month ago after 25+ years of playing Space Wolves, so don't take my insights as anything other than the view of another player in your situation. 

What got me into this faction was a friend of mine who was getting back into 40K and asked if I'd split a starter box.  I honestly like the greenwing army that comes in Dark Vengeance - it gives you a taste of each of the companies and an introduction into the kind of combined arms tactics you can get with them.  The Tactical squads are your gun line, while the bikes scout ahead and get close enough to the enemy to call in a deep strike by the Deathwing.

 

It may not be the most competitive approach, but it's fun - and as a new player to DA, you're probably not thinking about taking them to a tournament yet anyhow.  And if you want a little more advanced approach to the same tactics, the expansion box gives you Black Knights, Deathwing Knights and a fighter.  I haven't tried them on the field yet, but I think the idea is for the Dark Talon to fly in and stun a unit so that it is less effective in close combat, where the Knights will make short work of it.

 

Again, I don't have years of experience with DA to back up the effectiveness of this approach, but it seems to be the underlying purpose of each of the companies.

[SvenONE]

I think it depends on what you want to get out of the chapter.  As with all prospective DA players I give a little bit of a warning.  We have an extremely rich history and awesome fluff, we also have some great models with robed vets, our custom bikes, deathwing terminators (knights included), and our flyers (bad as they may be).  But on the table things just aren't as rosie as you'd like them to be.  If what you're looking for is a strong army that's going to compete with the top books on the table (like our vanilla cousins) then DA may be a frustrating army to play.  There's also the spectre of neckbeards in your shop making heretical claims like "DA is traitor legion."  This is a tired jest that is employed by social awkward individuals attempting to be funny.  Crush them with impunity.

 

I wouldn't say an all RW list is risky, I'd in fact say it's one of our strongest lists (this assumes you're bringing a banner).

An all DW list is really fun, really narrative, and looks awesome on a table, but it's hard to play because this edition is all about high S, high volume, AP2 shooting, 6th and 7th just haven't been editions for terminators.  Whenever you put this on the table, you can be sure you are playing a suicide mission where it's no guts, no glory.

I'd also not say that mixed wing is efficient, that is if your interpretation of that considers all 3 wings in a list.  GW + DW or GW+ RW, I would strongly suggest against a RW + DW or a mixed of GW + RW + DW.  All that is is overpaying for a lot of 24" S4 shooting.

 

Ever since the Imperial Knight came out I think every DA player should have one.  It fills a hole that is long range, high strength shooting and melee.  It's probably the best fire magnet on the table to draw fire away from the units that need it.  If you don't bring one of those the Stormwing detachment is also a great air support answer (though full disclosure I actually sold my Stormraven and Darktalons after I saw the Imperial Truth that is the Imperial Knight).

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the insights guys :)

 

What I mean by playing competitively doesn't necessary mean going for the win in high end tournaments, I'm looking for a solid army that isn't a one trick pony and that can hold its own against serious players (because that's what my gaming club is all about). Playing the Raven Guard has taught me one thing : that even a Chapter Tactic considered subpar can really shine depending on what you do with it and if you don't try to shoehorn it into something it's not designed to do.

 

The Dark Vengeance does sound like a good place to start, and is a budget way to get the models, hehehe :D

 

Thanks for the suggestion about Imperial Knights, I haven't played one yet because I'm a bit of a monodex purist, but I'll give it a second thought ;) Interesting point about GW+DW+RW not working together, I can definitely get your point about being careful with over expenditures.

 

I did draft a 1500pts list on my own prior to posting on the board, and it was very mixed wing oriented although I tried putting distance between myself and the specialty units of the RW and the DW (however awesome they are). Without going into a pure discussion about how to tune the list, do you think I could be going in the right direction, or point out what I should absolutely avoid ?

 

Company Master w/ Mace of Absolution

5 Company Veterans (Sergeant with Stormshield, Vet with Meltagun, Vet with Power Sword, the rest having BP+Chainsword) acting as an escort for the Master

Land Raider (for the Vets + Master)

2 x Tactical squads (Plasma Pistol + Plasma Gun, 1 with Plasma Cannon, 1 with Heavy Bolter) in Rhinos

5 DW Termies, AssCan & Chainfist

3 RW Bikers with 2 meltaguns + RW Attack Bike with Multi-Melta

1 Nephilim

 

All of that for 1500 points on the mark. Tactically speaking, the idea was to either deploy as a gunline when I'm faced with assault heavy armies, using the DW and RW squads as counter assault units, either mounting up in the transports and being more aggressive if I am facing a more range oriented opponent.

[FarFromSam]

Sorry sven, I agree with most of your insight, but I stand by taking triple wing. Maybe I mistook your meaning, but azrael, cmd squad with dev, three squads of tacts, 2 DW squads and two min size melta ravenwing squads is very powerful, (all scoring [Minus one bike squad]) cheap to buy/convert, (for new players.) And gives you A LOT of tactical flexibility. Especially if you add in a couple rhinos, drop pods. Not the same power as other codeci, but on par with our other builds.

[SvenONE]

Sorry sven, I agree with most of your insight, but I stand by taking triple wing. Maybe I mistook your meaning, but azrael, cmd squad with dev, three squads of tacts, 2 DW squads and two min size melta ravenwing squads is very powerful, (all scoring [Minus one bike squad]) cheap to buy/convert, (for new players.) And gives you A LOT of tactical flexibility. Especially if you add in a couple rhinos, drop pods. Not the same power as other codeci, but on par with our other builds.

 

Actually you are correct, I should have been more specific.  I find mixed wing (I also define mixed wing similarly to yours as 2 of each) isn't as effective when running below 2,000 points.  Quite honestly I never consider running Azrael unless it's a 2000+ point game, and I think that's a great rule of thumb for most DA players as he is neither resilient or a brawler like say a Calgar or a Draigo (Chapter Master level heroes).  That list you put up is a nice array of things but that's a minimum 1500 points without any transports and only comes with mostly 12-24" AP2 shooting.  Factoring in transports, that list I think becomes more practical but again puts it at the 2250 range I mentioned.

[FarFromSam]

I agree that the list is better at 2000+, but 1850 is plenty of points to run the list as is.  (1690) is what my number comes to (add a rhino for cmd sq {scoring via tact} plasma cannons and meltabombs on otherwise barebone tacts.  AC and 2 THSS in termis).  160 points left over to pepper in flavor. Black knights? beef up DW squads? Termi libby? Dev squad? or drop pods with deathwinds. 

 

 I agree Azzy isn't a brawler, and lacks Eternal warrior endurance, but true to the codex's theme, he is a force multiplier.  For his points I'd argue he's a steal.  First, Consider the lion's helm.  Think about those three tactical squads that normally either have to hide in terrain, or behind a 50 point Aegis. well one of the squads have just become a superior aegis 4++ that works in Close combat will tarpit Demons, walkers, Hq Brawlers etc.  On the topic of tarpitting, Azzy also gets to pick his Warlord trait,  Choose feel no pain for the unit on 5 of 6 missions.  A couple of other thoughts, his combi is master crafted with blind.  Just an added possible surprise when overwatching.  50/50 chance of forcing a test.  Rites of battle's table wide LD10 saves about 50 point on sgt upgrades.  Fearless, preferred enemy CSM, 6 str 6 master crafted attacks on the charge, 4 wounds. 2+ save  Not to mention his force org shifts

 

Utility, Resiliency, and Flexibility.  Azzy has that in spades.  Let the the other legions have their unwieldy blunt weapons.  Subtle strength. Go second.  Out flank the bikes, DS the DW.  Leave them only one target.  14 point tacticals with either 4++ and FnP or a 5+ cover.  Let them split their army.  Let them leave objectives open to attack.  Then turn an open hand into a clenched fist, bring in reinforcements where they're needed and secure objectives.  Azrael will punish you for playing him like Calgar, and reward you for playing like the Lion.

 

A bit more on topic though is it's a list I think GreyCrow or any Ravenguard player could enjoy.  Add in enough black hit and run bikes and he may forget which dex he's 

playing :p   And as Ulgrim pointed out it's a cheap initial investment $82 will get you most of the stuff aside from the command squad, MMAB's and SS/TH units.  

 

 

 

 

Company Master w/ Mace of Absolution

5 Company Veterans (Sergeant with Stormshield, Vet with Meltagun, Vet with Power Sword, the rest having BP+Chainsword) acting as an escort for the Master

Land Raider (for the Vets + Master)

2 x Tactical squads (Plasma Pistol + Plasma Gun, 1 with Plasma Cannon, 1 with Heavy Bolter) in Rhinos

5 DW Termies, AssCan & Chainfist

3 RW Bikers with 2 meltaguns + RW Attack Bike with Multi-Melta

1 Nephilim

 

All of that for 1500 points on the mark. Tactically speaking, the idea was to either deploy as a gunline when I'm faced with assault heavy armies, using the DW and RW squads as counter assault units, either mounting up in the transports and being more aggressive if I am facing a more range oriented opponent.

 

 

Waaayyy more on topic. The list looks fun, but I'd like more scoring units.  Mayyyyybe drop the Neph in favor of taking Belial?  This would take away your air support, but you make your Termis scoring, AND if you bought the LR as a dedicated transport for them that would double your scoring units for only 10 points more.  (hide vets Company master and/maybe Belial behind the land raider on deployment and embark them first turn.)  

 

Sorry If that got long winded guys.  I haven't gotten to play in a while and I'm dying over here.  Thanks for letting me vent, I needed that. :P  I hope you join us here on the rock!

[Stoic Raptor]

 

And as Ulgrim pointed out it's a cheap initial investment $82 will get you most of the stuff aside from the command squad, MMAB's and SS/TH units.  

 

Actually, if all you want are the DA models from the box, you can score the lot for $40-45 on eBay.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Be careful with DWA, every mostly DW army I have ever seen gets shot off the table quick. Now, I do recommend taking some regular bolter boys for an anchor, and dev squads are great HS choices, but that's my airborne infantry bias talking.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Company Master w/ Mace of Absolution

5 Company Veterans (Sergeant with Stormshield, Vet with Meltagun, Vet with Power Sword, the rest having BP+Chainsword) acting as an escort for the Master

Land Raider (for the Vets + Master)

2 x Tactical squads (Plasma Pistol + Plasma Gun, 1 with Plasma Cannon, 1 with Heavy Bolter) in Rhinos

5 DW Termies, AssCan & Chainfist

3 RW Bikers with 2 meltaguns + RW Attack Bike with Multi-Melta

1 Nephilim

 

Here are some ways you might tweak the list.

First, you might consider an Interrogator Chaplain with the mace i/o the Master. Gives you that charging bonus. A second thought: Azrael. Makes practically every thing in your list Objective Secured, and gives every member of the squad a 4++.

 

I'd ditch the plasma pistols and plasma guns in the Tactical Squads and use combo - meltas and meltaguns instead. Keep the plasma cannons though. They're the best heavies for Tactical Squads IMO.

 

Depending on your local meta, you may want a Whirlwind. We can have an uphill struggle against mass armies. Whirlwinds are cheap and help thin them out. Take my suggestion about the meltas and you're already a third of the way there points wise. Drop 3 Vets and you've got the points for it.

 

More fundamentally, with a Land Raider, Terminators, Vets, and a Nephilim, you have a lot of expensive units that underperform. I recommend using a few less exotic units and more meat - and - potatoes ones. For instance, you could ditch the Vets and the jet, stick the Terminators in the Land Raider, and maybe take a third Tactical Squad and a Predator, or some more Ravenwing. Another thought: use a Command Squad with the Banner of Devastation, put them in the Land Raider (or better yet a Crusader), and field some naked 6 - man Ravenwing Squadrons to take advantage of the Standard. Enhance with bike Librarian with Telepathy - if you can get Invisibility or Shouding, that'd be huge.

 

What it boils down to is there's a lot you can do with the Dark Angels, but you want to be careful not to overspend on the fancy stuff. You need a solid core of base units to support the sexy stuff.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the comments guys ! I'm really thinking I will go through with starting a Dark Angel army, I managed to find the DV lot for 35€ on EBay and there's no way I won't buy that for that price.

Raziel, you are right about the overspending bit. I did like the idea of a Land Raider, because I haven't played with one so far and it looks like a badass piece of tank but if I get ti for ferrying a unit of company veterans, I'm definitely not taking great advantage of it. After all it's better used as a delivery means to get a nasty assault unit where it's intended and I'm not sure I would plan on using it a lot with the Terminators which I'd rather Deep Strike.

I'll probably drop the company vets and the Land Raider and replace them with something else, I'll get back to you guys on that

_____

I have a few questions concerning the Relics and Standards. The Standard of Devastation does sound awesome, but I'm not too much a fan of the fact that it switches to Salvo for an infantry army. For a Ravenwing biker army (or a Deathwing ?), I definitely see the interest there I am a big fan of the Standard of Fortitude even though it is expensive, but I have virtually seen no player feedback with it.

Also, looking at the Chapter Relics, the Mace of Redemption is definitely good but I don't understand why the Monster is priced at 15 points more for the random effect it brings. Maybe they priced it this way because of the Instant Death, I don't know.

_____

I usually do not like not having anti-air in a list and in my local meta (I mean, you can find a few Dual Dakka Flyrant players in games of 1000 points for instance), which was one of the main reasons I included the Jet in the first place. But, I've tried a list with no anti-air, conceding air superiority to the opponent, and switching the company veterans for a Command Squad, including 3 more tanks.

What do you guys feel about this new direction I'm taking ?

Company Master - MoR, Plasma Pistol

Command squad - Standard of Fortitude, Apothecary, Company Champion, 1 Plasma Gun + Razorback with TLLC

Tactical squad - Rhino, Plasma Pistol, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon

Tactical squad - Rhino, Power Sword, Flamer, Heavy Bolter

Deathwing squad - AssCan, Chainfist

Ravenwing squad - 2 meltas, Attack Bike with Multi-Melta

Predator - TLLC, Heavy Bolter sponsoons

Vindicator

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The Nephilim is a decent choice of flyer, but without the ability to hover it's going to go into oncoming reserves to come back in T4. The Dark talon's strength is in it's ability to nerf your opponent. I'd be more apt to suggest the Storm wing formation to support them, as it's better air support, and you get strafing run, plus the ability to hover and stay on the table and deal damage. Not to mention the huge amounts of dakka the Stormraven can lay down if properly equipped. 

 

The list I'm considering is taking Sammael, and Belial, and taking 2 full squads of bikes with attack bikes and land speeders and a Ravenwing command squad with the banner of devastation, 1 full squad of terminators to , as well as 2 squads of mobile Tac marines. That way I keep my Elites slots free for 2 TLLC/ML dreads for a base of fire, and a full squad of DWKs for some melee goodness. 2 land raiders would be perfect for the mobile marines to keep them well protected moving up the field.  My fast attack slots would be filled with Land speeder typhoon squadrons, and a darkshroud. My air support would come from my astartes storm wing, and maybe my nephilim (depending on build).

 

It would be a list designed to put tacs on objectives, and use the bikes to advance and support the deathwing, with teleport homers, while providing a hefty base of fire from behind with the dreads.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah that list idea makes a lot of sense !

 

I'm curious, has anyone tried the Darkshroud ? Is it worth it ? On paper it sure sounds nice, but actual battlefield report would be much appreciated :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I've never used it, but I have played against it, and I hate it! It's so annoying to deal with, stacking all those cover saves, 2+ jink saves are rage inducing. It shares it's cover saves, and you can stack the cover on all the units in the bubble. 

 

A friend of mine plays a very competitive DA list in tournaments (Along with a competitive DEldar list, and Guard Armored list). I have played his DA list a half a dozen times, and only beaten it twice, once with tau, and once with SW, and those were slim victories. 

 

TL;DR, it's worth it, take it. Only the Darkshroud, not the Heavy Support thing, it can glance out on gets hot from one volley, don't do it.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the feedback :) Yeah, based on what you say, it really brings out an annoying buff to your army.

 

I was thinking of including it in my target 1850 points list based on synergies between buffer units : the Darkshroud, a ML2 Divination Libby, a Standard of Fortitude Command Squad. These guys would support 2 Rhino mounted tacticals, a Razorback mounted Tactical, a Vindicator and a Predator. With a Ravenwing/deathwing offense force to reach deep down the enemy line in Turn 1 or Turn 2.

 

The idea was that playing offensively, I would abuse the smoke launchers of the vehicles while moving up the board coupled with the Darkshroud to provide at least a 4+ cover save on all the vehicles.

Then, once deployed, create a nasty buffer bubble with the Squad and Darkshroud and Libby to support a strong battle line. This will perhaps not be the most competitive list out there, but I'll probably have fun with it, which is what I'm expecting anyways :p

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That actually sounds good. I always forget my smoke launchers, because they don't work quite the same way that you actually use smoke. Smoke is used to cover your advance, not just to obscure your vehicle.

 

If I were to write the rules on the smoke launcher, it would be a template weapon with no strength or ap (S- AP- Range 12", assault 3, blast, obscuring[blocks line of sight] must be fired in place of other weapons) so that it scatters when you deploy it, and can't be used if other weapons were fired. I'd make the smoke persistant for 1 turn after it deploys (disappears at the end of your next turn) and scatters at the beginning of each player turn (like a vortex). That would be a more accurate representation of smoke, rather than just granting a cover save. But I'm not a game writer for GW (I probably should be, given how many house rules I've come up with).

 

That was a bit off on a tangent, so I apologize. Back to your list concept. It sounds really good, and it should prove to be fun. Depending on how it works on the table it may end up being more competitive than you realize, depending on your meta (My last meta was a mix of tourney players and casual players. There are a couple of cheesy dick waffles that try to play too, but no one really likes them). Be careful what you consider non competitive could be incredibly competitive to someone else. 

 

For example, a friend of mine is running a campaign (We'll call him Hank), he brought an all Khorne Daemons list and had no way of dealing with armor. His opponent (whom we'll call Tim) brought a jet pack heavy Blood angels force. Now we all know you don't charge headlong into daemons of khorne, you treat them like orks. They're choppy, so you shoot the choppy ones. That's not what Tim did. He took his list straight into CC, and proceeded to get pounded. I would have easily beaten Hank's list, because I like to shoot things, and then assault what's left over when I have the advantage. In fact, as a SW player that is a very uncharacteristic attitude, that is more a DA attitude.

 

While we're on the topic, When building lists to take against hordes, take the banner of devastation. Bikes, terminators and vehicles (especially the Land raider crusader and the Dark talon) benefit greatly. With that banner all boltguns and stormbolters become salvo 2/4 weapons. Bikes, vehicles, and terminators are relentless, and count as not having moved for the purposes of shooting. That means it's 4 shots (twin linked on the bikes) from each single bike or terminator model with a boltgun or stormbolter, and 12 shots, twin linked, from each hurricane bolter. That is a withering amount of bolter fire, and against anything with a 5+ sv, a lot of death. Ten bikes are throwing out 40 twin linked shots, termies are pouring out 32 (if you take 2 heavy weapons in the team of ten) shots (TL if DWA) and tacs are pouring out 20 shots per squad (40 if they didn't move). One thing I can say, is that the Dark Angels can really lay down the hate. 

 

In your list, it's a simple item swap and paradigm shift to go from fighting MEQ's to hordes. The BOD is also useful against MEQ's too.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Greycrow, do you like using FW stuff?

If so I recommend swapping the pred and comd sqd razor for a Hyperios Land raider, you get AV14, the same TLLC and some skyfire (or just take the WW option if appropriate), that's what I use for my Green HQ and it works great with a Comd Sqd rocking 5 plasma guns and Libby.

Also, the DA have the honour of being able to take multiple Mortis Dreds, they rock....with real rocks (especially when loaded with twin TLLCs).

Your other thoughts are good and will play well if you do.

[SvenONE]

The Darkshroud is good, I have a list that runs 2 Vindicators basically next to each other.  During my shooting phase I'll blast whatever I can and then turbo-boost the Darkshroud to sit in front of the two vindis to give them a 5+ for intervening model, the thing is so big and clunky it's perfect!.  Then because of stealth, it becomes a 4+.  If my opponent wants to shoot the darkshroud that's fine, that means it's running around with a 2+ cover save.  Which is better because even if they destroy it (and they'll have to work pretty hard) I'll still have the VIndis leftover to blast something.

 

I don't mind forgoing the Darkshroud shots because it's only a heavy bolter and it's going to be doing more good for me as a moving piece of cover then it is for any armament it has (never give it an assault cannon unless you truly have no better way to spend the points).

 

I've also run the darkshroud with a RW list and it usually stays near the RWCS.  Considering they have Twin-Linked weapons I find msyelf jinking a fair bit so the 2+ for their jink is pretty solid (4+ base, 1 for skilled rider, 1 for stealth).

[Grand Master Raziel]

GreyCrow, that list looks fairly solid.  I'm just not super-fond of the Vindicator.  With practically all of its offensive power bound up on that one demolisher cannon, it's one Weapon Destroyed result away from being rendered mostly useless.  What about fielding a Dreadnought with a drop pod to deliver it?  A Dreadnought with a MM and a DCCW with an underslung heavy flamer makes a great unit to deliver via drop pod.  Your opponent has to dedicate something fairly serious to deal with it, which can be very disruptive even if he whiffs on arrival.  Gives your Terminators some support too.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying don't use a Land Raider full of choppy Vets.  What I am saying is don't use a Land Raider full of choppy Vets and a Nephilim and a DWT squad.

 

The Standard of Devastation does take some thought to use, and it helps to have units that can move and take full advantage of it.  That's why I recommended a Land Raider Crusader and naked Ravenwing Squadrons.  The Dark Talon can also take advantage of it, which might almost make the thing worth fielding.  Tacs would require a turn to set up to get the buff, but you could pre-position Scouts and move the Banner's AoE up to them.

 

I don't have a Dark Shroud, but from everything I've heard, they're well worth having in your list.  Easy to believe, if you think about it.  To be worth their points, they only have to save 3 Ravenwing Bikers (or 2 Ravenwing Knights).

 

As for the Divination Libby, Divination was hot in 6th edition, but not so much in 7th.  I've been using Telepathy lately.  The Primaris is a decent psychic attack, and it's got both Shrouding and Invisibility.  If you can get either (a decent chance with a ML2 Libby), you can cover more of your army than just with the Dark Shroud.

 

Ulrik, yikes, how many points is that list?  Instead of fielding both Sammael and Belial, why not just field Azrael?  He gives you both the Ravenwing and Deathwing as Troops and a number of other buffs besides.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I hadn't given a thought to how many points it would be, I kinda pick a direction and build it, and then tailor it down.  I chose Sammael and Belial because then I can field either or both of the wings. Yes Azrael gives you some good buffs, and don't get me wrong I use him (sometimes). I already have a model I use as Azrael (the company master from Dark Vengeance), I just want options.

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys, so, good news ! I've finaly jumped the gun and got myself the Dark Vengeance set and very intent on building up my Dark Angel army :) In true Dark angel fashion, however, I'm also tempted to keep growing the Chaos part of the set, because once assembled the models do look kick ass and I've been granted a vision of a list that looked very fun to play...

 

Anyways, back on the non-heretical topic : First of all, Stobz, since I live in France and Forge World is unfortunately not very popular due to many Frenchmen not having english skills decent enough to read unit profiles and due to Forge world books not being distributed in retail, Forge World units aren't very popular for a core army. I do find them awesome, but if I field them it has to be outisde of "regular" games where my opponent will expect me to bring 40k only units. :)

 

@Raziel : the choice of the Vindicator was for two reasons : 1) I've never fielded one and it's something I'd love to play with, nobody can argue that the very concept of the Demolisher Cannon is e-peen material :p ; 2) I was afraid that the list was lacking in volume of fire as well as high strength weapons, and depending on what you're shootin it at, the Vindicator can either put several hits or a guaranteed AP2 pen against most vehicles. I do agree though that a single weapon is risky.

The Dreadnought idea is cool indeed, but I don't think I wuld have the points for one in a Pod if I want to keep the core of the army I'd like to play ^^

Telepathy is indeed a great choice for Psykers I've used it to good effect (even though I tended to rely more on Bio or Pyromancy later) in my Raven Guard on an ML2 psyker, and like you said could synergize even better than the straight up Divinations buffs. I guess I'll have to playtest them on the table, hehe.

 

____

 

Right now, I've tuned the list I submitted earlier on and I'm going for a first step at 1500 points why the core concept of synergy between units. It's very similar to the list above, but with a lot less stuff in it obviously.

 

Company Master - Mace of Redemption, combi-plasma

Libby - ML2 for Telepathy or Divination

Command squad - Company Champion, Apothecary, Standard of Fortitude (btw, Ulrik, love your suggestion for swapping the banners, it's even simpler since I've been planning to base my list off the most expensive one :D ) + TLLC or LC/TLPG Razorback (this is where the company master will go)

 

10 Tacticals in a Rhino - Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Power Sword

10 Tacticals on foot - Plasma Pistol, Plasmagun, Plasma cannon (this is where the Libby would be attached to, so he can start buffing right off the bat)

 

5 DW Terminators - Assault Cannon, Chainfist

3 Ravenwing Bikers with 2 meltas + multi-melta attack bike

 

Darkshroud

Vindicator

 

____

 

A bit less mechanized troops, so rather than having a strong line moving at the same pace, I'll most likely have more of a wave approach with the Darkshroud and the Command squad in the middle of them.

 

I don't know whether it is going to be competitive, but I am super excited to play with the Dark Angels and I hope we can share war stories soon enough ! :)

[Ultra Magnus]

GreyCrow-

 

Since the Standard of Fortitude provides the FNP buff, you do not need the apothecary in your list. That should save you enough points for another piece of war gear such as an invulnerable save for your librarian or some hammer/shield's on your Terminators for example.

 

Good luck with your list and please report back on your early experiences. I have enjoyed the tactics discussions you have started over in the Raven Guard forums.

 

UM

[Isiah]

[...]

 

While we're on the topic, When building lists to take against hordes, take the banner of devastation. Bikes, terminators and vehicles (especially the Land raider crusader and the Dark talon) benefit greatly. With that banner all boltguns and stormbolters become salvo 2/4 weapons. Bikes, vehicles, and terminators are relentless, and count as not having moved for the purposes of shooting. That means it's 4 shots (twin linked on the bikes) from each single bike or terminator model with a boltgun or stormbolter, and 12 shots, twin linked, from each hurricane bolter. That is a withering amount of bolter fire, and against anything with a 5+ sv, a lot of death. Ten bikes are throwing out 40 twin linked shots, termies are pouring out 32 (if you take 2 heavy weapons in the team of ten) shots (TL if DWA) and tacs are pouring out 20 shots per squad (40 if they didn't move).

 

[...]

 

 

This is a common mistake. As per the DA Faq storm bolters do not benefit from the Standard of Devastation I'm afraid.

 

Cheers

I

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

[...]

 

While we're on the topic, When building lists to take against hordes, take the banner of devastation. Bikes, terminators and vehicles (especially the Land raider crusader and the Dark talon) benefit greatly. With that banner all boltguns and stormbolters become salvo 2/4 weapons. Bikes, vehicles, and terminators are relentless, and count as not having moved for the purposes of shooting. That means it's 4 shots (twin linked on the bikes) from each single bike or terminator model with a boltgun or stormbolter, and 12 shots, twin linked, from each hurricane bolter. That is a withering amount of bolter fire, and against anything with a 5+ sv, a lot of death. Ten bikes are throwing out 40 twin linked shots, termies are pouring out 32 (if you take 2 heavy weapons in the team of ten) shots (TL if DWA) and tacs are pouring out 20 shots per squad (40 if they didn't move).

 

[...]

 

This is a common mistake. As per the DA Faq storm bolters do not benefit from the Standard of Devastation I'm afraid.

 

Cheers

I

 

Last I heard they did. I just double checked, it seems I was mistaken, and you are correct. I have to say that is a grave disappointment. I wish they'd make up their mind, as the FAQ before that stormbolters did get the buff. 

[Stoic Raptor]

However, the bikes and hurricane bolters on a Crusader do still get the benefit, correct?  It's a shame that storm bolters don't (and I don't recall if DW can buy combis like Wolf Guard do) but that's still a lot of bullets.