Insights for prospective DA player

[Isiah]

As far as I know storm bolters never have. They are not the discrete 'boltgun' weapon per se, but are part of the larger boltgun weapon family as listed on p176 of the Rulebook.

 

The weapons' name causes the confusion, same with the 'heavy bolter'.

 

Yes Hurricane bolters do benefit as they are made up of 'boltguns'. Same with combi-anything -- it's something attached to a 'boltgun'.

 

Cheers

I

[Vissah]

Yes bikes and the hurricaned benefit from the standard.

[Brother dean]

I believe that they fixed the FAQ again...  Bolt rifles, Combi bolters and Hurricane bolters.

 

Link to the FAQ.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Dark_Angels_EN.pdf

[Isiah]

Yep -- that's the 2014 version I'm referring to :)

[ValourousHeart]

For what it's worth, I really like running a pure or mostly pure Ravenwing.

I like the challenge of being outnumbered... even when facing lots of MC in a Nid list.

I also like the fact that I still ended up tableing that Nid list with only losing 1/3rd of my models.

 

But the army isn't for everyone, and it does have its weaknesses.

Generally speaking RW is great against armored companies and weak against hoards.

Banner of Devistation helps a lot against hoards.... but there isn't much you can do if the ork player takes nothing but boots.

 

For the same $400 you will spend on any army, you can get a decent RW list.

3 battle forces and 4 extra speeders will get you a solid 1500 point list that can deal with most lists.

That is 18 bikes, 3 attack bikes, 6 normal speeders and Sammie speeder.

The only thing you will be missing is 6 melta guns for the bikes.

[SvenONE]

To me, the Storm Bolter SHOULD be affected by the standard because it's, by design, 2 boltguns strapped together as opposed to the Hurricane bolter with is essentially 6 (3 but TL).

[Brother dean]

Yes, no, maybe, but this isnt the thread to discuss it Sven.  Lets not confuse the new guy.
 

[Stoic Raptor]

Does anyone else remember when you could take a "combi-bolter" which was a bolter-bolter?  And that it functioned as a storm bolter?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The Dark Angels are really about synergy, much more so than any other space marine army. Sure there's synergy to be found in other space marine armies, but other SM armies don't have that one unit that is just a synergistic lynch pin, whereas the dark angels have several, the Dark Talon and Darkshroud both come to mind. Then there's the banners, which are a synergistic component, and force multiplier. Most Specialty Dark angels armies are all about having a small army that fights like one twice it's size. 

 

I'm not going to lie, I hate seeing an all DW army on the other side of the table. It can be a real pain to take it out. Popping a land raider that can make you re-roll a pen result is rough, and all those 2+'s are just disgusting. 

 

DW does the null deployment so well, since you can bring all of your termies in turn 1, and put them right up in your opponents face. Space wolves have a few options for doing that, but not as much...

Does anyone else remember when you could take a "combi-bolter" which was a bolter-bolter?  And that it functioned as a storm bolter?

 

That is now outdated technology, surpassed by the "superior" Stormbolter. The combi-bolter is now heresy, and only used by foul traitorous scum...

[Varizel]

Dark Angels is really fun, albeit i think that what kinda lists you made besides maybe Deathwing usually gravitating towards banners. Now if your meta don't have a lot of barrage weapons or assassins, it might work wonder/ok. But on my meta, wyverns are everywhere... or in my case on my list, i will have Biovores/Lictors/Mawlocs. Assassins too are everywhere and usually the vindicare. Those guys drop banners left and right since Standard/banner carriers are not characters, thus they can be sniped with impunity. On lists where the banner is on foot models... or usually over here, bike models, it will die on turn one in my meta, unless the banner is deemed less dangerous like Banner of Retribution. Vindicare especially.... if he got the bead on you, that's it.... bye bye banner. It's precision shot on every non snap shot he did... it ignores cover on every non snap shots he did... it got an AP2, always on wounds on 2, ignores invul save, i think it is 72 inch too for the range. Happened quite a lot of time on my meta that peeps stop taking banners on bikes/foot and it's on LR usually... which got killed too most of the time by said vindicare, hell they stop taking Dark Angels altogether actually. Those lists with barrage spam or assassins pretty much killed pure Ravenwing that relies on Banner of Devastation on my meta. So do mindful of that in case you want to play pure Ravenwing, which btw is REALLY FUN too .

TL:DR Dark Angels pretty fun, but most likely you'll be gravitating towards using banners, which is easily neutralized.

My 2 cents, don't let me stop you playing Dark Angels. They're heap of fun, hell i'm playing Dark Angels, i wouldn't be playing them if they are not fun right .

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Dark Angels usually don't get much play in my last meta, because DW usually get intercerptor'd off the table by turn 2 because of Tau, or they get hit with so much AP1/2 that they don't survive. RW is about the only really competitive list seeing as they get a jink, as well as being T5.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm considering trying an all-Ravenwing army soon. I've got enough for at least 1250 already.  Don't know how competitive it wil be, but I'm not really a competitive player.

[GreyCrow]

Great points Varizel, I actually hadn't considered sniping banners from squads In Raven Guard, I tend to play units that have a strong specialty but a good support capability of that specialty gets downed, so I'm usually not too worried about barrage and sniper rules. But there are lots of Wyverns in my meta too, so that might get sniped away !

Stupid question : does banners have to be on the table to provide their bonuses, or do they work from a transport like Rhinos or Razorbacks ?

EDIT : Other questions

So, rather than going mechanized, I think I might actually go for a Drop Pod assault list supported by a Ravenwing/Deathwing Alpha Strike. I did like my idea of a relentless mechanized force, but I realize that I've been playing with mounted troops in my Raven Guard army and I actually would like something new.

The Drop Pod Assault with the Deathwing Assault sounded like a mean Alpha Strike, and I remember the (unwanted) Drop Pod descent from the First Legion in Unremembered Empire ^^

I was thinking of Dropping a few Tactical Squads along with Dreadnoughts and keep the Deathwing Assault + Ravenwing Bikers to buff up the Alpha Strike. My problem is finding a good unit to put the Company Master, because perhaps a Command Squad would be too expensive to go with. But at the same time, FNP or Counter Attack gets very interesting when you're right in the enemy's face :p

Do you guys run full (or mostly) Drop Pod DA armies ? How do you go about them ?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Banners still provide their bonus while mounted in vehicles.

 

Dark Angels don't seem to lend themselves to being a drop pod army as well as say space wolves, that heavy weapon in the squad has to snap shoot the turn it comes in, in a tac squad, and DA vets aren't as useful as say SternGuard or WolfGuard, since they can't take as many special weapons, or be as versatile. They are pretty cheap for a Vet Squad though, so you might find them useful. Drop Pods would be a good way to support your deathwing in a Mixed wing army. Now, you can use the Ravenwing bikes to support your DWA/DPA as they have homing beacons (I think, it may be teleport homers, I'm not sure). 

 

Personally I like the high mobility mechanized Dark Angels. BoD in a LRC, flanked by bikes, spewing bolter fire like no one's business makes me happy.

[Stoic Raptor]

Actually, DA Vet squads get better weapon options than Wolf Guard squads.  Wolf Guard in PA (even pack leaders or Battle leaders) can only take combis, storm bolters or plasma pistols - no special weapons and no heavies.  DA Vets have access to all the weapons lists WG can get, plus specials and heavies.

[GreyCrow]

Interesting points :) I don't mind too much losing an extra heavy weapon shot on the Turn they arrive, because each pod will most likely be supported by a Podded Dreadnought (and obviously a Ravenwing + Deathwing Hammer Blow). I don't think Drop Pods should be used exclusively to deliver pinpoint in the face close range shooty Marines with lots of specials because I've never been fan of the suicide squads ^^

 

But Drop Pods give deployment and mobility options to a footslogging army and I thought that they could synergize well with DWA and Ravenwing Bikers with the Scouts usr. I kind of like the idea of having the enemy choose to shoot to fire against Dreadnoughts or Terminators or Bikers or Marines or my Command Squad to shoot at, while I get a comfortable amount of body where I want in Turn 1 with Stubborn and FNP so they'll stick there ^^

 

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I had a few more questions for you guys, this time regarding Dark Angels (Ravenwing) specialty vehicles. They do have a lot of flavour and are quite cool looking but I wanted to have your opinion and ideally battlefield debriefs on them. I planned to add a dual Heavy Flamer and a dual Multi Melta Landspeeders to the army to provide extra specialized fast moving firepower, which I know will be reliable additions to the army.

But the DA exclusive vehicles do have that kick ass look, I'm just unsure of what they really bring to the table and I've got a little bit of trouble finding their sweet spot :p 

 

Nephilim Jetfighter : I would say that this is a decent anti-air flier with awesome air to ground anti-infantry capability when equipped with the Avenger Mega Bolter. 8 S6 shots (including 2 Blacksword) per turn with 3 TL S5 shots all at AP4 does sound like a decent bit of dakka. It might not do too well against Stormravens or other Heavy Fliers though.

 

Dark Talon : So, the concept is very nice, but I have a lot of trouble picturing the effects of its debuffs on the ground. It seems that the statis bomb is very potent to neutralize any CC oriented squad, but not a big fan of a single one use here and it really seems to be there to kill enemy warlords and their retinue preferably from the Chaos Codex or MEQ equivalents. The rift cannon sounds quite decent against light infantry with the 2 hurricane bolters, but unreliable against heavy infantry. How did these guys go for you ?

 

Darkshroud : It does seem quite awesome in Ravenwing or Mechanized armies that can get cover saves, not much to say here I feel it's a pretty solid speeder. I'm not too sure about running one for aggressive Drop Pod lists however.

 

Landspeeder Vengeance : So yeah... the Plasma Storm looks like a very awesome idea, but that speeder is going to melt itself... Is the only reliable use the Large Blast firemode over the 3 Plasma Cannons though ? Any tips to making this bugger work ?

 

______

 

I would love to include some more specialty Dark Angels units, but so far I'm not convinced the vehicles would synergize well in Drop Pod lists compared to a squad of Ravenwing and Deathwing.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Darkshroud hands down is the best vehicle of the bunch. Improves cover and can be a nuissance to take oout of action.

Dark Talon is only nice if you pair him with a standard of Devastation, to quadruple its firepower.

Nephilim... only if you really need an anti-infantry/light vehicles flyer. It's not a reliable anti-flyer solution

LS Vengeance looks nice on a shelf and that's about it.

[Stoic Raptor]

I get the impression that the Dark Talon's true intended purpose is to weaken ground troops in preparation for a close assault.  This would have to take careful timing, to make sure you can charge as soon as the DT attacks.  -3 to Initiative is nice, but it's better still when we consider that it makes the target unit less likely to pass the Blind test - so their WS and BS will be 1 until the end of next turn, in addition to acting later in close combat.

 

If you can melee such an afflicted unit, you're practically guaranteed to destroy it.

[Pigshead]

What Lucifer said.

[GreyCrow]

I get the impression that the Dark Talon's true intended purpose is to weaken ground troops in preparation for a close assault.  This would have to take careful timing, to make sure you can charge as soon as the DT attacks.  -3 to Initiative is nice, but it's better still when we consider that it makes the target unit less likely to pass the Blind test - so their WS and BS will be 1 until the end of next turn, in addition to acting later in close combat.

 

If you can melee such an afflicted unit, you're practically guaranteed to destroy it.

 

This would be awesome combo indeed, but I'm not sure you can do both the stasis bomb and the rift cannon on a single unit in a turn unfortunately. The bomb is dropped on targets you passed over, and the only way you could do combine it with the rift cannon would be if the Dark Talon could fire backwards :/

[Stoic Raptor]

Good point.  I'd missed the part where bombing runs require Zooming, and thus can't be combined with the Hover Strike - and also that bombs are dropped during Movement rather than in the Shooting phase.

[GreyCrow]

Good point.  I'd missed the part where bombing runs require Zooming, and thus can't be combined with the Hover Strike - and also that bombs are dropped during Movement rather than in the Shooting phase.

 

Perhaps this was meant for 2 Talons to work in pairs, with one bombing the other one rifting. It's still a 300 points investment, but it ensures 2 turns of stasis/rifts.

[Hoots]

Ever since the Imperial Knight came out I think every DA player should have one.  It fills a hole that is long range, high strength shooting and melee.  It's probably the best fire magnet on the table to draw fire away from the units that need it.  If you don't bring one of those the Stormwing detachment is also a great air support answer (though full disclosure I actually sold my Stormraven and Darktalons after I saw the Imperial Truth that is the Imperial Knight).

 

 

Ditto, the ability to move quickly to support even your fast units with a very decent melee unit is something that the DA really lacked in their codex without going full hog and taking termies/knights in a landraider.  The knight errant variant also allows you to pop armour without having to sacrifice your points on meltaguns on your bikes/GW these guys can now be plasmagunning your enemies off the board.  black nights are pretty good in CC but will still get chewed up eventually and ive found it hard t o keep them alive long without a PFG (4++ inv) being near by.  The PFG is not something you want to be taking into CC.

 

If your happy to stick with a more gunline approach then just make sure your warlord stays away from enemy characters as they are often much better than him in melee. tool him up for boosting nearby units and keep him in the backfield or moving about on a nice fast bike!

[GreyCrow]

I think I'm starting to see you guys' points about the difficulty of running succesfully the three wings into a single list given the points cost of the specialty units from Deathwing and Ravenwing...

 

Man, so much cool stuff to do with this Codex that I really can't decide in a direction :D Do you guys have any good reading material about the Dark Angels in battle where I could get some inspiration ?

[GreyCrow]

After much consideration, I think I'll be going for a footslogging 3 wings army :p I just love the models and their special rules so much, plus the tactical ability is pretty bad ass. I was also scared of breaking the lore of the Dark Angels (I like playing relatively competitively but I like staying true to the fluff too :) ), but after careful rereading it seems that most Dark Angels strike forces use Ravenwing and Deathwing elements, so it's a relief :p

 

Have you guys ever ran these types of lists ? What were their strengths and weaknesses ?