Captain Coolpants Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/X/Xiphon_40K.pdf Are the rules, points are pretty steep, but but 2 twin Lascannons and a missile that allows 3 chances to blow or immobilise another vehicle is pretty good. Plus it can be taken as part of the grey knights codex.... And also.... HAS DEEP STRIKE! So first turn flyers yo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 205 points for a 2 HP, AV11 Flyer gets a firm "No, Thank You!" from me. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I'm sold. First turn flyer and provides decent anti armor jinks on a 3+ instead of a 4+ and that missle launcher looks nice. Little more points then a raven but a decent alternative to hit hard and fast Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 As an Ultramarine player, this is a glorified Stormtalon. I'd never invest this much in a 2HP AV11 flyer unless it had some kind of mega nova/destroy the world bomb. ;) I am guessing they will see stagnated sales on this until they re-do the rules. The kit itself is 'okay' but nothing amazing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 I thought everyone would be put off by the price (both points and cash monies). But I guess this flyer is faaaaar more useful to us due to our lack of shooting plus first turn deepstriking. Would he cool if we had options to give it 2 twin psycannons instead of lascannons though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 OMG he has deep strike, so you can throw it on turn 1... it's not so bad... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 OMG he has deep strike, so you can throw it on turn 1... it's not so bad...How? Neither Deep Strike nor the additional rules in the PDf allow arrival on turn 1. Only Drop Pod Assault allows deep striking on turn 1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nemesis strike force. All deep striking units can attempt to Ds first turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 At 105pts, I'd take two in a NSF. At 205pts? Oh Hell No! SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 OMG he has deep strike, so you can throw it on turn 1... it's not so bad...How? Neither Deep Strike nor the additional rules in the PDf allow arrival on turn 1. Only Drop Pod Assault allows deep striking on turn 1 please, read the GK rules, nemesis strike force. so these little toy is added to the fast attack slot, being part of that detachment. Nemesis strike force. All deep striking units can attempt to Ds first turn. Indeed At 105pts, I'd take two in a NSF. At 205pts? Oh Hell No! SJ Just an option, something we hadn't... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 The kit seems huge for only 2 hull points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 It is experimental rules stillstill. Kowibg the tendency fw has, in about 5 months it'll probably be 3hp 150 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 At the end of the day I don't believe for a second that these will be finalized rules. If they want to sell that model they have to get it out of "Hey this reminds me of the Nephilim" to "Hey, I think I'd rather use this than a Stormraven". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nemesis strike force. All deep striking units can attempt to Ds first turn.D'oh! Of course, I should have thought about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 At the end of the day I don't believe for a second that these will be finalized rules. If they want to sell that model they have to get it out of "Hey this reminds me of the Nephilim" to "Hey, I think I'd rather use this than a Stormraven".The cost either needs to drop by a huge amount, or it needs to be AV12 with 3HP. 200+ points for 2HP is terribad, I don't care what special rules it has ( you can't use a cool rule when you die to light AA). SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Looking at this first glance, it seems to have multiple disadvantages compareed to a Stormraven: -No POTMS (so not split-fring and no shooting 2 weapons + 3 missiles in a single turn -Lower durability (i.e. AV11/11/11 vs AV12/12/12, and 2HP vs 3HP -No Transport capacity or Assault vehicle Rule -No ability to go into Hover mode (so no staying on the table an extra critical turn by choosing not Zoom) Given that the Xiphon and Stormraven are basically the same cost points-wise, this would seem to make the Stormraven a "no-brainer" better choice. That said, let's look a little closer at what the Xiphon brings: -Long-ranged shooting -- While the Stormraven can take a TLed Lascannon, CML, and its organic Missiles, several of its weapons options (i.e. Multi-melta, Assault Cannon, Hurrican Bolter) require it to get as close as 24" to be used. The Xiphon's weapons are ALL at least 48" range, with the Rotary Missile Launcher being 60". This means it can come in off the table edge and basically hit anything it wants with ALL of its weapons, which can be critical. It also fills a major gap in the GK arsenal, that of long-ranged fire support. -Low-AP shooting -- Another key GK weakness is low AP shooting, especially at range. The Xiphon gets 4 x S8/9 AP2 shots every single turn (Stormraven can do this for two turns, then runs out of missiles). What's more, the 2 x Lascannons are TLed for greater accuracy and the Rotary Missile Launcher gets improved chances to destroy a vehicle outright on Penetrating Hits. More importantly, the Rotary Missile Launcher forces its target to re-roll successful Cover and Jink saves, making this ideal against Wave Serpents, Jinking Bikers, Jinking Flyers, Jinking FMCs (this vehicle is the bane of FMCs with 4 S8+ AP2 shots a turn... Winged Hive Tyrants, beware!!!), and tough infantry in cover. -Deep Strike/Nemesis Strike Force -- As mentioned in this thread already, being able to come in from Deep Strike Reserve, combined with the Nemesis Strike Force 1st Turn DS rules, means that the Xiphon will very likely be able to begin contributing its firepower turn 1, while Stormravens have to wait until turn 2+ at the earliest. Given their powerful, long-ranged shooting, a pair Xiphon Interceptors can be a game-changer coming in turn 1 by getting First Blood, chopping up that enemy Centurion star, sniping down an Eldar Wraithknight, or popping multiple enemy transports before they can get their passengers to the fight. All of this synergizes incredibly well with the rest of the GK force, which is usally advancing/DSing on the enemy turn 1 and doesn't get to employ most of its combat power until later turns, due to the short range and close combat "bent" of the army. So, in summary, while the Stormraven has many advantages and is a better "all-around" flyer, I think in the role of pure long-range fire support (which is the critical vulnerability of most GK armies), then a Xiphon (or two; best used i pairs) can be a game-changer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 At the same cost as a Stormraven, I'll stick to my Interceptor squads to fill my Fast slots (because Intercrptor fire will splash the Xiphon upon arrival). Baring a huge price reduction or a significant buffing, the Xiphon is too much of a target for a 3+ Jink to be worth fielding. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Great reply @L30n1das I thought exactly like you. lower av doesn't mean to be crap... the idea is to make it do what it comes to do... then leave the battlefield for a second chance... in ther exact way Tau Barracudas does... (they are very deadly in the correct hands) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3989680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 How long does it usually takes for forgeworld to adjust their rules on things? Because I'd 100% use 1 or 2 if it was around 150-170pts... IF it kept deepstrike (which it probably won't when they realise the shenanigans we can pull) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 How are the shenanigans worse than Drop Pod Assault with combi-melta Sternguard or Deathwing Assault? NSF still has to roll to arrive 1st turn. And I'm not even talking about "OP Xenos codices". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I love FW. When GW goes to lengths to remove DS from all fliers in the game (presumably for balance reasons, or to not mess with funky DS shenanigans), FW just ignores that and goes "YOLO FLIER DS HO!". lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 How are the shenanigans worse than Drop Pod Assault with combi-melta Sternguard or Deathwing Assault? NSF still has to roll to arrive 1st turn. And I'm not even talking about "OP Xenos codices". simply because it's a flier, the only other way to get fliers on first turn is to purchase a landing pad + the book to use the landing pad. It's allll about sales. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 How long does it usually takes for forgeworld to adjust their rules on things? Because I'd 100% use 1 or 2 if it was around 150-170pts... IF it kept deepstrike (which it probably won't when they realise the shenanigans we can pull) Typically 3-5 months depending on if they notice how broken the rules are Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Email them! I have, and I've attached links to discussions about the new flyer. At 170 it would be appealing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Considering the deep strike gives it a bonus, but that only truly benefits GK. Since this will be used for all astartes (hopefully permanent rules don't take it away from us) and considering there are cheaper options, like storm talons, that can be taken in formations for all marines (excluding us), I would say the cost should be 100. Considering They put on agile for the +1 to jink saves, and the rotary missle cannon just being extremely beneficial, mainly to use due to lack of anti armor, I would say 150 is reasonable. I would like to see vector dancer thrown on this baby as well if at all possible, and possibly another hull point, but if that drives the cost up more, then screw it. 150 seems fair as an all around all chapters usage price. Just 205 for less armor, cant hover to stay in bounds, less hull points, and no transport, its way over priced. Makes things like trying to ally in Raptor Gunships more appealing. 20 more points and you can get POMS, + 2 turrets that aim at any thing you want, and can still bust up infantry and takes all just as well with strafing run for that bonus bs skill. As is, anything over 150 is just too expensive, but as a son of titan, I see no other option but to suck it up if we want a hard anti armor distance weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/#findComment-3990798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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