Will the new Forge World flyer be of any use to us?

[Quixus]

The Storm Wing formation can be taken by any army. The units are battle brothers with any army of the Armies of the Imperium faction. Last time I checked the Grey Knights were on the side of the Imperium.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Urgh....so many issues

 

Space Marine Flyer, but not POTMS: This is a huge blow to it right out of the gate, even without considering weapon options. Ravens are better than Land Raiders for a reason

AV11: Again, Ravens are AV12 on all facings. It's a big deal. 

2HP: Stop. Doing. This. To. Light. Vehicles.

No weapon options: One of the most attractive aspects of Ravens is their variable weapon loadouts, not to mention their base firepower  of 4x S8 AP2 missiles. 

 

I like the xiphon launcher, it looks pretty hilarious when you roll a pen. I like the two twin-lascannons, but its still not enough firepower for 205pts. 

 

Needs to go back to the drawing board. At minimum, for us to consider it;

 

- AV12, 3HP

- POTMS (it's a Space Marine Flyer, there is no reason not to do this)

- 150 points (losing transport capacity is a big deal, its the other half of why Ravens are so good)

- Keep the Xiphon launcher, but give it Heavy 3 or 4. For the signature weapon system, it has the potential to do nothing without more shots

- Lascannons can be swapped for assault cannons, plasma cannons or typhoon launcher. This would it give it anti-infantry flexibility

 

I like we'd get a dedicated gunship, but Ravens already do this quite well AND carry an entire squad into battle + character. 

[Quixus]

While I think that POTMS is great, why would a Space Marine Vehicles be entitled to it? Not all SM vehicles have it (the whole rhino chassis group does not have it for example). How does POTMS make a Stormraven better than a Land Raider? Both have that rule. It's the TL Meltagun and the ability to carry a dread IMHO

[Reclusiarch Darius]

While I think that POTMS is great, why would a Space Marine Vehicles be entitled to it? 

 

It's their signature ability. 

Not all SM vehicles have it (the whole rhino chassis group does not have it for example).

 

Yeah well A: Rhinos are a much simpler machine, they were mass produced for the entire Imperium's military at one point and B: they only have one gun so it's irrelevant in game and design terms

How does POTMS make a Stormraven better than a Land Raider?

 

It doesn't. But if a Raven-variant gunship is gonna exist, it needs POTMS at bare minimum to compete with a Land Raider. The Raven is better because it has far more flexible weapon options, it has capacity of 12 which is equal or better than the Phobos and Redeemer (not LRC though obviously). It's a Flyer, with all the attendant advantages that brings. Plus it still has the POTMS and Assault Ramp rules, which were the Land Raider's big draw prior to Ravens. 

It's the TL Meltagun and the ability to carry a dread IMHO 

 

The twin multi-melta is nice, but the dorsal turret options are also very handy. Also, being a Flyer, it naturally has a better shooting position than a ground tank, so it has a lot more threat. Plus it carries four S8 AP2 missiles as well. The Dread capacity is almost an afterthought, I've never seen it matter in games with GK. It is amusing with BA though, Furiosos are scary once they hit melee range. 

[Quixus]

 

While I think that POTMS is great, why would a Space Marine Vehicles be entitled to it?

It's their signature ability.

 

Well an enginseer gan give it to astra militarum vehicles as well. Not sure if some non-SM vehicle in a Forgeworld book also get it.

 

Not all SM vehicles have it (the whole rhino chassis group does not have it for example).

Yeah well A: Rhinos are a much simpler machine, they were mass produced for the entire Imperium's military at one point and B: they only have one gun so it's irrelevant in game and design terms

 

Predators and Razorbacks, Vindicators or Whirlwinds with an additional Storm Bolter prove that statement wrong. I talked about all vehicles with a Rhino chassis, not just the Rhinos.

 

 

It's the TL Meltagun and the ability to carry a dread IMHO

The twin multi-melta is nice, but the dorsal turret options are also very handy. Also, being a Flyer, it naturally has a better shooting position than a ground tank, so it has a lot more threat. Plus it carries four S8 AP2 missiles as well.

 

Somehow I always forget that the stormraven has missiles beside the optional typhoon. Without them the weapons can be pretty similar to the LRC

 

The Dread capacity is almost an afterthought, I've never seen it matter in games with GK. It is amusing with BA though, Furiosos are scary once they hit melee range.

Yeah, I mostly look at stuff from the BA perspective.

[Ishagu]

I think it should be 175 with 3 Hull Points.

Less substantial vehicles like Predators, Rhinos, Talons... Even Sicarans don't have Potms.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well an enginseer gan give it to astra militarum vehicles as well. Not sure if some non-SM vehicle in a Forgeworld book also get it.

 

Mechanicum Land Raiders have it IIRC. It basically represents the superior combat AI that is built into the war machine. Marines always get the best available tech, hence they have a rule for their most powerful vehicles. 

Predators and Razorbacks, Vindicators or Whirlwinds with an additional Storm Bolter prove that statement wrong. I talked about all vehicles with a Rhino chassis, not just the Rhinos.

 

Well you said Rhinos and Razorbacks. Technically, while Preds and Vindi's use the same chassis, they're massively up-armoured and don't have transport capacity. Same shell, but radically different vehicle. As to why they don't have POTMS...well I've always found vehicle rules weird (they should be able to shoot everything all the time, it doesn't make any sense why the sponsons don't fire at full capacity). I suppose it started out being a point of difference between taking a Land Raider versus a Predator. Also, lol storm bolters. They're only taken to prevent bad Weapon Destroyed results robbing you of the main gun(s). 

Somehow I always forget that the stormraven has missiles beside the optional typhoon. Without them the weapons can be pretty similar to the LRC

 

Yeah which is why the Raven has replaced the Land Raider in every Marine force, ours included. Those missiles add a degree of firepower we simply don't have anywhere else, especially not on a natural Skyfire platform. It's kinda dumb how the Raven beats most other options, just by virtue of its guns, Flyer status and transport capacity. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Needs to go back to the drawing board. At minimum, for us to consider it;

 

- AV12, 3HP

- POTMS (it's a Space Marine Flyer, there is no reason not to do this)

- 150 points (losing transport capacity is a big deal, its the other half of why Ravens are so good)

- Keep the Xiphon launcher, but give it Heavy 3 or 4. For the signature weapon system, it has the potential to do nothing without more shots

- Lascannons can be swapped for assault cannons, plasma cannons or typhoon launcher. This would it give it anti-infantry flexibility

 

 

Are you joking? If they did that the Xiphon would be OP as hell. Only 10 points more than a Stormatalon with lascannon, for more guns (as you've made the launcher better than the assault cannon), POTMS, more armour, more special rules and more hullpoints? All for the loss of Hover? What you've proposed would be a bargain at 205.

 

Ishagu's got it about right, 170-odd points, 3HP, job done.

[Prot]

Honestly at 170 pts I'd still never take it.

 

Not being able to hover is big. Strafe is big, and the lascanon loadout on the storm talon is one thing, but I actually love the 3 shot missiles. It's a real pill box and the ever flexible Assault Canon is almost always useful especially twin linked.

 

I'd say I'd rather see it's usefulness increase rather than a point decrease. Truly the unit being reduced in price is going to be really hardpressed to make anyone forgo a Stormtalon for it. 

 

With my Ultra's I often used two of them. I never missed the fast attack choices and they were cheap enough that they didn't kill my list building, but just spammy enough that opponents can't afford to ignore them. I'm afraid the Stormtalon will be the benchmark for cheaper flyers, and there just isn't enough bang for the buck in that Forgeworld junker.

[Deamon Wolf]

_{Hurrah Thank You Forge World finally for some love Pitty it is for a rather unusable unit}

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Are you joking? If they did that the Xiphon would be OP as hell. Only 10 points more than a Stormatalon with lascannon, for more guns (as you've made the launcher better than the assault cannon), POTMS, more armour, more special rules and more hullpoints? All for the loss of Hover? What you've proposed would be a bargain at 205.

 

Nope. It has zero transport capacity, so it's automatically worse than a Raven. It has to shoot better than a Raven to be worth it, and be cheaper. Otherwise, I'll just keep taking my Raven and not caring about FW's insane approach to rules design. 

>implying Stormtalons are correctly priced

They're massively overpriced, and I honestly don't know why any sane Marine player would take them. You have the same Raven we do, it does everything better and carries an assault unit into melee safely. Also, Tau and Eldar kill Stormtalons with almost comical ease, as does any army with halfway decent AA (like, a single quad-gun or more). 

 

150pts is still quite expensive for a Flyer. Just remember, even with my recommended changes, the Xiphon is still a worse gunship than a Vendetta, who again carries 12 dudes into combat and comes in squadrons, and can take door heavy bolters for Weapon Destroyed insulation/more dakka. 

[Prot]

 

>implying Stormtalons are correctly priced

They're massively overpriced, and I honestly don't know why any sane Marine player would take them. You have the same Raven we do, it does everything better and carries an assault unit into melee safely. Also, Tau and Eldar kill Stormtalons with almost comical ease, as does any army with halfway decent AA (like, a single quad-gun or more). 

 

150pts is still quite expensive for a Flyer. Just remember, even with my recommended changes, the Xiphon is still a worse gunship than a Vendetta, who again carries 12 dudes into combat and comes in squadrons, and can take door heavy bolters for Weapon Destroyed insulation/more dakka. 

 

 

I guess I am insane! Mom was right.

 

I love the stormtalon  but I don't compare it in the same way you are. For me I look at what I can get that out performs them at 125 points. Nothing in my Ultramarines does more for 125 pts. In fact some games I take two to help with air dominance.

 

Here's the thing, when a flyer jinks... almost any flyer whether you paid 100-200 pts... they all suck. With 2 I often can pop most flyers fairly easily, just as I can be popped. But our Jinks are EQUAL. At the end of the day we're all rolling 4+ no matter how much the flyer costs.

 

At 125 x 2 I always get a turn to come in, and it's very typical for me to quite possibly pay for that flyer with a Strafe Run on entering.

 

There is no doubt it is a paper cannon. I came from running the dark angel Nephifail. I stand by my experience with the stormtalon. I'm not just theory hammering here, it works in real life games for me. YMMV but aside from Flyrants which own the skies in this game, I was very successful with my Stormtalons. I simply applied them properly and had an expectation of their points value.

[Ishagu]

Stormtalons are fantastic, no doubt about that.

I sometimes run 3 of them in 2k lists, Tiggy gets them all in on turn 2 90% of the time.

 

The Xiphon looks, to me at least, absolutely fantastic. The lack of hover is a massive downside, bigger than most people seem to realise.

 

In truth, I expected it to cost around the same as a fully kitted Talon - more punchy in shooting but less user friendly (no hover, only shoots straight).

 

It's cost is simply far, far too high. It's poor against infantry, I would have expected the missiles to be able to fire as blasts perhaps, or maybe have a choice of different options? Regardless, there is no way I can justify running one - and due to it's high monetary cost I don't want to get one for fun, either.

-It would fair badly against orks - their vehicles are all easy to destroy anyways, and their infantry is numerous.

-It would fair badly against Eldar - their wave serpents reduce pens to glances, so the benefits of the missiles won't be felt.

-it can't bring down a Hive Tyrant in one turn - 2 Stormtalons can.

-In Horus Heresy games it will be shot down on the turn it arrives before it fires, or be forced to jink, lots of interceptor in those...

 

If it was significantly cheaper, I might run one, escorted by a Stormtalon.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Are you joking? If they did that the Xiphon would be OP as hell. Only 10 points more than a Stormatalon with lascannon, for more guns (as you've made the launcher better than the assault cannon), POTMS, more armour, more special rules and more hullpoints? All for the loss of Hover? What you've proposed would be a bargain at 205.

 

Nope. It has zero transport capacity, so it's automatically worse than a Raven. It has to shoot better than a Raven to be worth it, and be cheaper. Otherwise, I'll just keep taking my Raven and not caring about FW's insane approach to rules design. 

>implying Stormtalons are correctly priced

They're massively overpriced, and I honestly don't know why any sane Marine player would take them. You have the same Raven we do, it does everything better and carries an assault unit into melee safely. Also, Tau and Eldar kill Stormtalons with almost comical ease, as does any army with halfway decent AA (like, a single quad-gun or more). 

 

150pts is still quite expensive for a Flyer. Just remember, even with my recommended changes, the Xiphon is still a worse gunship than a Vendetta, who again carries 12 dudes into combat and comes in squadrons, and can take door heavy bolters for Weapon Destroyed insulation/more dakka. 

 

No. You are simply 100% wrong. Most flyers are at least 150, with only (as far as I can recall) Ork planes, Stormtalons, Night Scythes and Valkyries being significantly less (Razorshark and Razorwing start off lower, but hit at least 150 with the upgrades to make them worth it). Leaving both SW flyers, Stromraven, both DA flyers, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Helldrake, Sun Shark, both Eldar flyers and the Vendetta at more than 150.

 

Speaking of the Vendetta, you could at least make an accurate comparison using its current rules. 170 points gets you AV12, Hover, 6 man transport capacity and 3 twin lascannon at BS3, with the option of heavy bolters for +20 points. Compare your proposed Xiphon, which puts out 2 twin lascannon and 3-4 S8 AP2 missiles that do D3 damage results on a penetrating hit and force re-rolls on enemy jinks, all at BS4 with POTMS, for 20 points less. It would put out more firepower, more accurately, for fewer points than the Vendetta, and you claim the Vendetta's a better gunship? Or we could compare it to the Eldar Crimson Hunter, which, for 10 more points than your Xiphon gains pseudo tank hunter, but loses volume of fire (2 shot pulse laser vs 3-4 Xiphon launcher, not to mention the lack of special rules), accuracy of fire (its Bright Lances aren't twin linked) and 2 points of armour.

 

If anything, you're going wrong assuming the Stormraven is fairly priced, when it's silly good for the 200 you're probably spending on it. But you don't compensate for one thing being undercosted by overpowering everything else, that way lies madness, and the destruction of what little semblance of game balance we've got left.

[jeffersonian000]

They should be way cheaper, and come in squadrons of 1-2. That would make them worth taking, to me.

 

SJ

[Quixus]

What's so good about squadrons? They are less mobile than individual models.

[jeffersonian000]

What's so good about squadrons? They are less mobile than individual models.

They arrive together.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I guess I am insane! Mom was right.

 

In a meta gone mad, the crazy are king ;) or something like that lol

 love the stormtalon  but I don't compare it in the same way you are. For me I look at what I can get that out performs them at 125 points. Nothing in my Ultramarines does more for 125 pts. In fact some games I take two to help with air dominance.

 

A Sicarian? 

Here's the thing, when a flyer jinks... almost any flyer whether you paid 100-200 pts... they all suck. With 2 I often can pop most flyers fairly easily, just as I can be popped. But our Jinks are EQUAL. At the end of the day we're all rolling 4+ no matter how much the flyer costs.

 

There is more to it though. AV11 is a world of difference from AV12, as is the difference between 2HP and 3HP. Also, there are ways to ignore cover saves and therefore Jink (Sicarians, 'Perfect Timing', if you play Tau or Eldar etc). On top of that, as you mention, Flyers cost real points. If they're gonna do anything when they arrive Turn 2, they better do it fast. Because AA is real and prevalent across multiple armies now. You're lucky if you get 2-3 turns usage out of your Flyer normally. 

There is no doubt it is a paper cannon. I came from running the dark angel Nephifail. I stand by my experience with the stormtalon. I'm not just theory hammering here, it works in real life games for me. YMMV but aside from Flyrants which own the skies in this game, I was very successful with my Stormtalons. I simply applied them properly and had an expectation of their points value.

 

Aside from Flyrants, who are just silly good at downing other aircraft and FMC's, you also have Hive Crones who cost around the same IIRC and spam auto-glance missile grubs into you. You also have Serpent Shields, Vendettas, MissileSides, Riptides, quad-guns etc. We're not in 6th anymore, where Flyers and FMC's largely ran riot over armies. 7th has reached a point where AA is to be expected, and it's actually good. 

No. You are simply 100% wrong. Most flyers are at least 150, with only (as far as I can recall) Ork planes, Stormtalons, Night Scythes and Valkyries being significantly less (Razorshark and Razorwing start off lower, but hit at least 150 with the upgrades to make them worth it). Leaving both SW flyers, Stromraven, both DA flyers, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Helldrake, Sun Shark, both Eldar flyers and the Vendetta at more than 150.

 

I'll rephrase. 150pts is expensive for a Flyer that doesn't transport anything, can't Hover, and has zero weapon flexibility. All of the Flyers you listed are around 150pts or so, give or take 20pts. Yet they're massively better, due a combination of better firepower, transport capacity and/or more relevant abilities they grant their faction. 

all at BS4 with POTMS

 

It doesn't have POTMS

its Bright Lances aren't twin linked)

 

So? They're lances, they reduce all AV to 12. Knight-Titans and Land Raiders do not like that. It's still great anti-tank tech. Anyway, Eldar players have stronger stuff than their planes for killing armour. 

If anything, you're going wrong assuming the Stormraven is fairly priced, when it's silly good for the 200 you're probably spending on it. But you don't compensate for one thing being undercosted by overpowering everything else, that way lies madness, and the destruction of what little semblance of game balance we've got left.

 

The Raven is fairly priced. 200pts is exactly on the borderline of being too pricey, or undercosted. 

 

Making the Xiphon 150 isn't OP at all. It still dies to decent AA tech, and it doesn't bring anything except firepower. Ravens are still a better Flyer overall, but they pay for their flexibility by being 50pts more (which takes into account their transport capacity and Assault Ramp, the latter being unique amongst Flyers). 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

all at BS4 with POTMS

 

It doesn't have POTMS

Please actually read what I wrote, I was using your proposed Xiphon as a comparison. Your proposed Xiphon does have POTMS.

 

 

 

its Bright Lances aren't twin linked)

 

So? They're lances, they reduce all AV to 12. Knight-Titans and Land Raiders do not like that. It's still great anti-tank tech. Anyway, Eldar players have stronger stuff than their planes for killing armour. 

The point being that a twin linked weapon is more accurate than a non twin linked weapon. Which was part of my point that the Crimson Hunter has less firepower, less accuracy and less armour than your proposed Xiphon, all for more points.

 

As for Bright Lance vs Lascannon? S8 lance only matters against AV14, so AV13 Knights don't really care which they're shot with, the results are identical. As far as Land Raiders, shooting one with either the Xiphon or the Hunter is probably a waste, thanks to only having 2 shots than can seriously worry it (the regular S8 shots aren't a massive threat), better to go for a slightly softer target.

 

 

 

No. You are simply 100% wrong. Most flyers are at least 150, with only (as far as I can recall) Ork planes, Stormtalons, Night Scythes and Valkyries being significantly less (Razorshark and Razorwing start off lower, but hit at least 150 with the upgrades to make them worth it). Leaving both SW flyers, Stromraven, both DA flyers, Voidraven, Doom Scythe, Helldrake, Sun Shark, both Eldar flyers and the Vendetta at more than 150.

 

I'll rephrase. 150pts is expensive for a Flyer that doesn't transport anything, can't Hover, and has zero weapon flexibility. All of the Flyers you listed are around 150pts or so, give or take 20pts. Yet they're massively better, due a combination of better firepower, transport capacity and/or more relevant abilities they grant their faction. 

Again incorrect, all the flyers I listed as being more than 150 are exactly that, plus that's before upgrades. The current Xiphon rules (let alone your proposed alteration) simply outgun the DA and Eldar (though they can take more upgrades to even that out, which take their 10/10/10 plane closer to 200). When it comes to vehicle busting it also outdoes the Helldrake and Sun Shark (and arguably the Voidraven and Doom Scythe) and is broadly comparable to the Vendetta, if not slightly better. It's better at AA than the Scythe. You want to make it even better and cheaper than all these flyers. It only really starts to lose out when compared to the big, 200+ point Marine stuff, and even then it retains comparable firepower in its dedicated anti vehicle role, just lacking transport, armour and hull points (hence why it needs to be cheaper and/or more HPs)

 

 

 

If anything, you're going wrong assuming the Stormraven is fairly priced, when it's silly good for the 200 you're probably spending on it. But you don't compensate for one thing being undercosted by overpowering everything else, that way lies madness, and the destruction of what little semblance of game balance we've got left.

 

The Raven is fairly priced. 200pts is exactly on the borderline of being too pricey, or undercosted. 

 

Making the Xiphon 150 isn't OP at all. It still dies to decent AA tech, and it doesn't bring anything except firepower. Ravens are still a better Flyer overall, but they pay for their flexibility by being 50pts more (which takes into account their transport capacity and Assault Ramp, the latter being unique amongst Flyers). 

 

Really? Let's compare to another 200-odd point flyer, the Voidraven. For about the same cost you get worse armour, no transport capacity and no missiles (those cost extra). The VR does have the void mine, but the stormstrike missiles are actually better a vehicle busting these days (more hits=more hull points), plus they can be used on other planes, unlike the bomb. Now the guns are better than the SR's, but less accurate (no twin linked) so that's a slight advantage at best, hardly compensating for everything else the SR brings. What makes the SR undercosted is the missiles, which it doesn't seem to pay anything for, and the majority of its weapon upgrades being free.

 

Just to clarify, 150 for the Xiphon as is wouldn't be too bad (though still not ideal thanks to 2HP). But your proposed changes make it pretty much the best armed flyer in the game, with the best armour flyers get, for less points than the majority of its inferior peers. That is OP by any definition.

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Please actually read what I wrote, I was using your proposed Xiphon as a comparison. Your proposed Xiphon does have POTMS.

 

Oh okay sorry, I misread what you said. Still though, POTMS brings it up to the Raven's level. It's not exactly a buff. 

The point being that a twin linked weapon is more accurate than a non twin linked weapon. Which was part of my point that the Crimson Hunter has less firepower, less accuracy and less armour than your proposed Xiphon, all for more points.

 

Well I was talking about Marine Flyers mainly, as they're the best comparison. Xenos Flyers are a different beast. We're not talking about how to make xenos Flyers better. For the record, I think the Crimson Hunter is fine. Goes fast, check. Shoot lances and shurikens, check. Has the fragility of an eggshell balanced on a toothpick, check. That's Eldar to an E. 

Again incorrect, all the flyers I listed as being more than 150 are exactly that, plus that's before upgrades. The current Xiphon rules (let alone your proposed alteration) simply outgun the DA and Eldar (though they can take more upgrades to even that out, which take their 10/10/10 plane closer to 200).

 

DA Flyers are utter trash, so I don't see the point in making that comparison. Eldar are meant to be fragile, so again, no bueno. 

When it comes to vehicle busting it also outdoes the Helldrake and Sun Shark (and arguably the Voidraven and Doom Scythe) and is broadly comparable to the Vendetta, if not slightly better.

 

Helldrake is anti-infantry, come on man, apples and oranges. It's also far more resilient, don't forget (free IWND and re-rolls to wound for one turn, plus its 5+ invul it can take if Jink doesn't work). 

Doom Scythe is fine, plus again, it carries Necron infantry. So, like the Raven, it's automatically better than a dedicated gunship, as it brings transport capacity as well. 

Again, Vendetta has transport capacity, and its only 20pts more. Xiphon should be able to shoot as well as a Vendetta, if its gonna make up for the deficiency of no cargo. 

Tau Flyers are trash, so no point making that comparison. 

It's better at AA than the Scythe. You want to make it even better and cheaper than all these flyers. It only really starts to lose out when compared to the big, 200+ point Marine stuff, and even then it retains comparable firepower in its dedicated anti vehicle role, just lacking transport, armour and hull points (hence why it needs to be cheaper and/or more HPs)

 

Well considering it's billed as an air-superiority interceptor and fighter, it should be shooting better than its counterparts. I don't mind if its better than trash DA or Tau Flyers, everything is. But if its gonna be a dedicated 'shoot stuff gud' Flyer, it needs to be able to compete with the current kings. Namely, Scythes, Helldrakes, Ravens and Vendettas. 

Really? Let's compare to another 200-odd point flyer, the Voidraven. For about the same cost you get worse armour, no transport capacity and no missiles (those cost extra). The VR does have the void mine, but the stormstrike missiles are actually better a vehicle busting these days (more hits=more hull points), plus they can be used on other planes, unlike the bomb. Now the guns are better than the SR's, but less accurate (no twin linked) so that's a slight advantage at best, hardly compensating for everything else the SR brings. What makes the SR undercosted is the missiles, which it doesn't seem to pay anything for, and the majority of its weapon upgrades being free.

 

Apples and oranges, again. Eldar Flyers are meant to go fast, shoot lances+shurikens into your face, and die if you look angrily at them. Voidraven and Crimson Hunter do those things, and they're not horribly overpriced either. 

 

Ravens are a significant investment for any Marine army, and they eat into your model count. If you're gonna give up taking another couple of squads or a couple of tanks, it needs to be bringing significant firepower and utility. Which it does. Also, the weapon swaps being free is fine. It can either go anti-infantry, anti-tank, or a bit in between. Choices are good, and I wish GW would do the same for other factions. 

Just to clarify, 150 for the Xiphon as is wouldn't be too bad (though still not ideal thanks to 2HP). But your proposed changes make it pretty much the best armed flyer in the game, with the best armour flyers get, for less points than the majority of its inferior peers. That is OP by any definition.

 

Not really. Also, you forget, currently the Xiphon dies to a single Broadside/quad-gun/angry look. A Raven, or my revised Xiphon, takes actual effort to remove, even with Interceptor shenanigans. I'd rather my 150pt odd Flyer didn't die as soon as it turns up, at least not without my opponent having to dedicate a unit or two to make it happen. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

It's better at AA than the Scythe. You want to make it even better and cheaper than all these flyers. It only really starts to lose out when compared to the big, 200+ point Marine stuff, and even then it retains comparable firepower in its dedicated anti vehicle role, just lacking transport, armour and hull points (hence why it needs to be cheaper and/or more HPs)

Well considering it's billed as an air-superiority interceptor and fighter, it should be shooting better than its counterparts. I don't mind if its better than trash DA or Tau Flyers, everything is. But if its gonna be a dedicated 'shoot stuff gud' Flyer, it needs to be able to compete with the current kings. Namely, Scythes, Helldrakes, Ravens and Vendettas.

And, firepower-wise it does this already. 2 TL S9 and 2 S8 with funky rules at BS4 is at least as good as the Vendetta's 3 TL S9 BS3. It's better than the Drake, actually being capable of landing explodes results, can engage at greater range and isn't reliant on vector strike to deal with other flyers. I've already said it does better against flyers than the Scythe, and it's borderline on the ground whether the single shot form the death ray compensates for the lower strength of it's tesla gun vs the Xiphon's S8/9 firepower. As for the Raven, the only edge it has are it's missiles (which are the chief reason I consider it undercosted, another 20 points for those missiles would be entirely reasonable), other wise it's 2 guns are comfortably outstripped by the Xiphon's 3. It's a closer comparison with the Stormwolf, which boils down to the Wolf getting greater accuracy from all twin linked, but the Xiphon getting more higher strength (2 S9 shots vs 1) and the funky missile rules. So I'd say it certainly matches its peers gun-wise as written. The issues remain cost and durability.

Also, the weapon swaps being free is fine. It can either go anti-infantry, anti-tank, or a bit in between. Choices are good, and I wish GW would do the same for other factions.

I'm not complaining about the weapon swaps exisiting, I'm questioning the need for them to be free. No other vehicle does this. Why does a Dreadnought have to pay more for a lascannon than an assault cannon, but the SR doesn't?

Just to clarify, 150 for the Xiphon as is wouldn't be too bad (though still not ideal thanks to 2HP). But your proposed changes make it pretty much the best armed flyer in the game, with the best armour flyers get, for less points than the majority of its inferior peers. That is OP by any definition.

Not really. Also, you forget, currently the Xiphon dies to a single Broadside/quad-gun/angry look. A Raven, or my revised Xiphon, takes actual effort to remove, even with Interceptor shenanigans. I'd rather my 150pt odd Flyer didn't die as soon as it turns up, at least not without my opponent having to dedicate a unit or two to make it happen.

So only AV12 flyers are worth taking? The same comments can be applied to the Voidraven or Crimson Hunter that you say are fine in their respective armies. Yet they're both over 150 and die to a single Quad Gun.

Well I was talking about Marine Flyers mainly, as they're the best comparison. Xenos Flyers are a different beast. We're not talking about how to make xenos Flyers better. For the record, I think the Crimson Hunter is fine. Goes fast, check. Shoot lances and shurikens, check. Has the fragility of an eggshell balanced on a toothpick, check. That's Eldar to an E.

Again incorrect, all the flyers I listed as being more than 150 are exactly that, plus that's before upgrades. The current Xiphon rules (let alone your proposed alteration) simply outgun the DA and Eldar (though they can take more upgrades to even that out, which take their 10/10/10 plane closer to 200).

DA Flyers are utter trash, so I don't see the point in making that comparison. Eldar are meant to be fragile, so again, no bueno.

When it comes to vehicle busting it also outdoes the Helldrake and Sun Shark (and arguably the Voidraven and Doom Scythe) and is broadly comparable to the Vendetta, if not slightly better.

Helldrake is anti-infantry, come on man, apples and oranges. It's also far more resilient, don't forget (free IWND and re-rolls to wound for one turn, plus its 5+ invul it can take if Jink doesn't work).

Doom Scythe is fine, plus again, it carries Necron infantry. So, like the Raven, it's automatically better than a dedicated gunship, as it brings transport capacity as well.

Again, Vendetta has transport capacity, and its only 20pts more. Xiphon should be able to shoot as well as a Vendetta, if its gonna make up for the deficiency of no cargo.

Tau Flyers are trash, so no point making that comparison.

And I was literally only comparing their firepower (because that one, relatively simple variable that doesn't need changing imo). So saying Eldar are meant to be fragile isn't really relevant.

As for the Helldrake, yes it's specialised, but so is the Xiphon. The point was that the current Xiphon's firepower is entirely appropriate when considered amongst its peers (and completely outshines the Hades Drake, if they ever show up ).

The Raven's only automatically better than a dedicated gunship if you want to transport a squad in it. Otherwise you're wasting points paying for a utility you don't want/need.

Also, the Doom Scythe doesn't have a transport capacity. The Night Scythe does, but loses the Death Ray in the process.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And, firepower-wise it does this already. 2 TL S9 and 2 S8 with funky rules at BS4 is at least as good as the Vendetta's 3 TL S9 BS3. It's better than the Drake, actually being capable of landing explodes results, can engage at greater range and isn't reliant on vector strike to deal with other flyers. I've already said it does better against flyers than the Scythe, and it's borderline on the ground whether the single shot form the death ray compensates for the lower strength of it's tesla gun vs the Xiphon's S8/9 firepower. As for the Raven, the only edge it has are it's missiles (which are the chief reason I consider it undercosted, another 20 points for those missiles would be entirely reasonable), other wise it's 2 guns are comfortably outstripped by the Xiphon's 3. It's a closer comparison with the Stormwolf, which boils down to the Wolf getting greater accuracy from all twin linked, but the Xiphon getting more higher strength (2 S9 shots vs 1) and the funky missile rules. So I'd say it certainly matches its peers gun-wise as written. The issues remain cost and durability.

The rotor missile launcher being only 2 shots and requiring a pen to be cool is a bit lame though. S8 also means against AV13+, you are hoping for good rolls on the pen dice. That said, I agree that it'll gun down Flyers just fine (nothing is higher than AV12, and even that is kinda rare). But it's made of paper mache currently, and is way too expensive. I'd bump the rotor missile to 3, it's not twin-linked and its only S8.

Ravens don't need a price increase. 200pts is already a big investment. 225 would put them in the same realm as LR's, too expensive for what they do.

I'm not complaining about the weapon swaps exisiting, I'm questioning the need for them to be free. No other vehicle does this. Why does a Dreadnought have to pay more for a lascannon than an assault cannon, but the SR doesn't?

Because the cost of its weapons is included in the base price (mostly, typhoons and the hurricane sponsons still cost points). Dreads are bad regardless, so they're irrelevant to this discussion.

So only AV12 flyers are worth taking? The same comments can be applied to the Voidraven or Crimson Hunter that you say are fine in their respective armies. Yet they're both over 150 and die to a single Quad Gun.

No. I'm simply saying AV12 Flyers are the most durable, and the ones I named have relevant firepower and are not overpriced for what they do. Eldar are used to having glass cannons, it's their style. They have improved Jink/5+ invul saves (depending on which flavour you're taking). Also, if they're not taken out, they hit like a freight train.

And I was literally only comparing their firepower (because that one, relatively simple variable that doesn't need changing imo). So saying Eldar are meant to be fragile isn't really relevant.

Sure it is. You're trying to claim that making the Xiphon AV12 is too OP. Whereas I'm pointing out that weaker Flyers (in durability terms) are that way due to design reasons. Being AV12 is perfectly reasonable for a Marine Flyer. They're designed to be durable and flexible, not specialised towards speed and killyness (which is how Eldar build things).

As for the Helldrake, yes it's specialised, but so is the Xiphon. The point was that the current Xiphon's firepower is entirely appropriate when considered amongst its peers (and completely outshines the Hades Drake, if they ever show up ).

I've never seen a Hades Drake. I think they're like unicorns ;). I'm mostly in agreement, provided they drop the points cost and at least give it AV12 on front and side. And 3HP, 2HP is for Sentinels. The rotor cannon could do with another shot though, 2 seems low IMO.

The Raven's only automatically better than a dedicated gunship if you want to transport a squad in it. Otherwise you're wasting points paying for a utility you don't want/need.

Exactly. So if the Xiphon is cheaper and shoots roughly the same amount of dakka, it'll be a competitive choice for lists that don't have anything a Raven would suit. So for example, in a Nemesis Strikeforce, we'd definitely welcome some air-cover, but the only thing we'd normally put in a Raven is Purifiers (everyone else is Deepstriking or Shunting Turn 1). So, if the Xiphon was available with a proper statline and cost, we'd probably take 2. We only have room for 2x DK's in a NSF anyway, so we'd be putting those FA slots to use.

Also, the Doom Scythe doesn't have a transport capacity. The Night Scythe does, but loses the Death Ray in the process.

Ah well that's the one I was thinking of. My apologies, I haven't thought of Necron Flyers in a while (I'm still busy hating their absurd infantry choices).

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I'm not complaining about the weapon swaps exisiting, I'm questioning the need for them to be free. No other vehicle does this. Why does a Dreadnought have to pay more for a lascannon than an assault cannon, but the SR doesn't?

 

Because the cost of its weapons is included in the base price (mostly, typhoons and the hurricane sponsons still cost points). Dreads are bad regardless, so they're irrelevant to this discussion.

 

OK, I disagree that the Dread comparison is irrelevant, because why should the same heavy weapon be cheaper on a more durable platform (the SR having the same armour, but less likely to be hit thanks to being a flyer)? But I have a different comparison that illustrates the same principle. Both the SR and Stormwolf come with twin Heavy Bolters as standard (SR gets 1, SW gets 2), and both can be upgraded to twin Multi Meltas. However, while the SR gets them for free, the SW must pay 20 points for the privilege. These are very similar platforms, yet the SR gets it's upgrades for free. This is BS imo.

 

 

And I was literally only comparing their firepower (because that one, relatively simple variable that doesn't need changing imo). So saying Eldar are meant to be fragile isn't really relevant.

 

Sure it is. You're trying to claim that making the Xiphon AV12 is too OP. Whereas I'm pointing out that weaker Flyers (in durability terms) are that way due to design reasons. Being AV12 is perfectly reasonable for a Marine Flyer. They're designed to be durable and flexible, not specialised towards speed and killyness (which is how Eldar build things).

 

No, I'm claiming that AV12 and 3HP (plus the firepower buffs) at 150 points is OP, because that makes cheaper, tougher and at least as shooty as its peers. Yes, the Eldar flyers are not meant to be durable, but they still have to pay points for their stuff and the Xiphon as you proposed it is superior, as well as cheaper. That is therefore not a balanced unit.

[Teetengee]

3 hp and 170-190 points seems more reasonable, especially if potms is added (as it doesn't help a flyer thaaat much). Same point range as the heldrake which with the daemon rule is more resilient but has less dakka.

[frostbite]

I reckon that the Xiphon would be fine with 3 HP and its current weapon rules for about 170. That puts it in the same ballpark as the Crimson Hunter and Vendetta, with a similar level of firepower. Any more than that is too pricey, any less too cheap.

 

As a Dark Angel player, I can certainly say that it's far more appealing than our Nephilim Air Inferiority Fighter, so at least it has that going for it!