Captain Coolpants Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Yeah the whole thread on the news and rumours section agrees that it need so be cheaper Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3994736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmagi Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 My vote is upping the hp to 3 and av12 for 170... I would take 2 at that level as it is now I would never field one Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3994787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 My vote is upping the hp to 3 and av12 for 170... I would take 2 at that level as it is now I would never field oneI concur. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3994916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I dunno that it needs AV12. Many other flyers at that points level (approx 170) are AV10-11 with 3hp and they seem to do fine. I feel that, with S7 being the norm for AA, AV12 makes planes a bit too resilient. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3995176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The Nephifail is a VERY bad example for comparison. I think there are just as many, if not more flyers that compare at AV12 HP3 for 170~. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3995259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Agreed, the Nepilim is utter garbage, but I was thinking more along the lines of the Crimson Hunter/ Hemlock or the voidraven. If we bring FW into the equation, you've got to look at the T-bolt, Lightning and Avenger, which are all sitting around that mark once you arm them and have either low armour (lightning and T-bolt) or decent armour and low hull points (Avenger), or both low armour and low hull points (Lightning again) Â The Xiphon certainly seems to outshine the T-bolt, with its higher strength and more accurate guns. The only things that the T-bolt has over the Xipohn are the third hull point and that repair rule, which only affects velocity locked results. Â Like I said earlier, I reckon that the Xiphon would be perfectly fine as it is, but with the third hull point, for around the 170 mark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3995518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmagi Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Like I said earlier, I reckon that the Xiphon would be perfectly fine as it is, but with the third hull point, for around the 170 mark. Honestly If your only going to add 1 hull point then the points should be more like 150, as others have said the vendetta has similar fire power, av12, 3hp, 6 model transport capacity, extra armor, and hover all for 170... the Xiphon with av11, and 2hp for the same price wouldn't be worth taking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3996101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 AV12 and 3HP at bare minimum, and down to 175pts. The guns can stay the same Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3996323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It doesn't have the look of an av12 flyer, so I disagree with that. Â Ravens, Stormwolf, Vendetta - these are big chunky machines. The Xiphon looks like a light interceptor so av11 is right. Â It definitely needs a third Hullpoint and a drop to 170 though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3996505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 If its only AV11, it's not worth taking. Pure and simple. Also, I would argue it's pretty chunky. Not to mention it's a Marine Flyer, which means they're always more heavily armoured than a conventional vehicle of the same size (due to the favour the Mechanicum give them in terms of materials and technology). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3997609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Stormtalons are av11 and I think they are brilliant and perform consistently well against all opponents... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3997944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015  Stormtalons are av11 and I think they are brilliant and perform consistently well against all opponents...   Well considering a single quad-gun is enough to kill them (before they can shoot no less), I'm not as enamoured. Point being, this isn't a Stormchicken, this is a heavy fighter. Also, its competing with the Raven, and the Raven is better than Stormtalons by any measure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3997976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 AV12 would feel weird to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3998002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 AV12 would feel weird to me.Why? It's a space fighter, not an atmospheric fighter, right? Why would it not be structurally sturdy enough to survive micro meteorites that hit with energy orders of magnitude higher than bullets? It's capable of orbital insertion (reason behind it's Deep Strike), which means it is tough enough to punch through an atmosphere, which requires some pretty sturdy engineering. And if all that sturdiness is achieved via shields, then where are the shields? Or .... it's not a space fighter. It's a flimsy atmospheric fighter, that .... is equipped with re-entry shielding? That doesn't seem right. It appears that FW did not think through the stats and rukes for their new model.  SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3998319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 But Deep Strike on a Flier!! Â Have to one up GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3998341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 But Deep Strike on a Flier!!  Have to one up GW.  Even more kek's flow when you realise this works with 'Rites of Teleporation'. Turn 1 Deepstriking Flyer, that's pretty hard to match without taking that landing platform Fortification (which almost no one does). Why? It's a space fighter, not an atmospheric fighter, right? Why would it not be structurally sturdy enough to survive micro meteorites that hit with energy orders of magnitude higher than bullets? It's capable of orbital insertion (reason behind it's Deep Strike), which means it is tough enough to punch through an atmosphere, which requires some pretty sturdy engineering. And if all that sturdiness is achieved via shields, then where are the shields? Or .... it's not a space fighter. It's a flimsy atmospheric fighter, that .... is equipped with re-entry shielding? That doesn't seem right. It appears that FW did not think through the stats and rukes for their new model.  More to the point, it's a Marine Flyer. Barring weird things like the Stormtalon (which is like a light escort craft rather than a fighter jet), they generally overbuild on armour and weaponry on Marine vehicles, and still keep them fast because Astartes get all the best tech. That's why a lot of Marine vehicles have Ceramite Armour, both as an anti-melta defence, and to resist the re-entry pressure and heat buildup that comes from orbital insertion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Â Â Even more kek's flow when you realise this works with 'Rites of Teleporation'. Â And First to the Fray. Â DS was removed from every flier in the game, presumably to avoid these DS shenanigans. Â But FW have stuck a middle finger up to that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 And First to the Fray. Only on the Warlord and his unit ;) DS was removed from every flier in the game, presumably to avoid these DS shenanigans.  But FW have stuck a middle finger up to that!  Which I really don't understand. GW is apparently okay with drop pods, which are arguably the toughest DS list around, and still cause even strong armies issues due to their snowflake landing rules and anti-Riptide mechanicus (lol hop out 6" behind the pod, enjoy free LOS blocking terrain they can't be bothered destroying). How is Deepstriking Flyers an issue? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Mordrak could cause a Stirmraven to DS without scatter on turn 1, until GW removed DS from Flyers. With the removal of Mordrak, yet the return of turn DS, one has to wonder why they removed DS from Flyers in the first place? Â SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Mordrak could cause a Stirmraven to DS without scatter on turn 1, until GW removed DS from Flyers. With the removal of Mordrak, yet the return of turn DS, one has to wonder why they removed DS from Flyers in the first place? Not enough forged narrative. They want you to make zooming noises while your airplanes fly on from your board edge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Only on the Warlord and his unit The Warlord was placed into Deep Strike Reserves. There was a single Reserves roll for the Transport, the Embarked unit and the attached HQ. All three enter play by Deep Strike, from Deep Strike Reserves. Did the Warlord (and his Unit) enter play from Deep Strike Reserves via Deep Strike? Yup. Uh oh, flier/warlord trait shenanigans. It was exactly the same for Mordrak. Drop Pods, well, they used to not be allowed to other Factions. GW are *foolish* to have allowed empty pods in Fast Slots. Utterly . Plus they come in Turn 1 anyway, and their scatter doesn't really matter. So shenanigans with Mordrak/Belial/Angels Wing/First to the Fray/any other new DS rule aren't really too disruptive with them. Placing a Storm Raven anywhere you want on the board turn one however. Yeah, that's broken. Not enough forged narrative. They want you to make zooming noises while your airplanes fly on from your board edge. So true! Literally PMSL reading that. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 The Warlord was placed into Deep Strike Reserves. There was a single Reserves roll for the Transport, the Embarked unit and the attached HQ. All three enter play by Deep Strike, from Deep Strike Reserves. Did the Warlord (and his Unit) enter play from Deep Strike Reserves via Deep Strike? Yup. Uh oh, flier/warlord trait shenanigans. It was exactly the same for Mordrak. Drop Pods, well, they used to not be allowed to other Factions. GW are *foolish* to have allowed empty pods in Fast Slots. Utterly . Plus they come in Turn 1 anyway, and their scatter doesn't really matter. So shenanigans with Mordrak/Belial/Angels Wing/First to the Fray/any other new DS rule aren't really too disruptive with them. Placing a Storm Raven anywhere you want on the board turn one however. Yeah, that's broken. Well you have to roll that Warlord trait. Also, I'm pretty sure if the Flyer can't natively Deepstrike, you can't do that. I'm in total agreement if it's a drop pod, they definitely have native Deepstrike. But 'First Into The Fray' doesn't confer Deepstrike itself, it just buffs it to be Turn 1 no scatter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015   Also, I'm pretty sure if the Flyer can't natively Deepstrike, you can't do that.  Totally. :)  It's also quite literally *why* our Storm Ravens lost their native Deep Strike.  And why a new Flier with Native Deep Strike causes all sorts of shenanigans with the rules above.  Imagine the ability to drop a Drop Pod armed with a TL Meltagun first turn, anywhere on the board you want. That it also carries more guns and three embarked units (plus as many ICs as you can squeeze in) is just a bonus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I loved dropped my SR on turn 1 wih Mordrak and ftw onboad, follow by turn 2 locator and Homer shenanigans. Pretty I may have singlehanded ended that tactic for everyone due to all the hate mail GW got. Â SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I'm wondering if the D's flier is just forgeworlds way to show us some love, knowing we can ds turn one and no one else can thus including us. This flier seems to benefit us more then any other marine army, and the others get raptors and eagles that can ds as well, so its not like this is the first one they put out. Just the first one put out we can use Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305201-will-the-new-forge-world-flyer-be-of-any-use-to-us/page/3/#findComment-3999964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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