The Great Librarian: Ultimate Generic Character?

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

I'd like to bring up another segment of discussion around what I'm finding to be the ultimate utilitarian in the codex (speaking unnamed characters here): The Librarian.

 

So he obviously fits snugly into a Termie squad, but I'd like to discuss outfitting him for war in various scenarios. It was easy enough for me to configure him for 1K games but it's a little tougher higher up. 

 

I'd like to discuss the following:

 

- How do you take your typical Libby?  (IE: 2-3 wc's?, Stormbolter vs. combi?, Warding Stave vs. X?)

 

- What about relics? 

I started off with the LIbria Daemonica but swapped into the Cuirass of Sacrifice for smaller games because it was so nice having FnP, and IWND. But there's more than those two choices. How often do you use those?

 

- How about use with Draigo? 

I'm considering pairing one with Draigo, and a second one in another squad. VERY pricey army, but options open wide up. Would you still take Sanctus abilities with Draigo or Divination? Does it change your loadout? What about Paladisn and your Libby - does that change anything for you?

 

Just curious as I'm really trying to bang some solid lists out at higher point values, but the concern I am seeing is 'toying up' the army so much I experience diminishing returns considering the volume of crap the Xenos like to chuck at me here is vomitatious! Having low, but even powerful units, may work against me. What do you think?

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Bare bones normally. He's fantastic value as is, you don't really need upgrades. 

 

Mastery 3 is nice, but I often need the points elsewhere for more substantial upgrades. Same for Relics. 

 

Regarding Cuirass, I find it's better on a Grand Master. He has enough wounds to mean the FNP and IWND do more. 

[Adeptus]

I consistently find myself wishing I had more psychic dice, so I always spring for the mastery level 3. It also makes it that much more likely you'll pick up a useful power. Same reason I take the Liber.

 

I usually take Sanctic for my lore, but sometimes take Divination. I've tried fishing for Invisibility but it's never satisfying. Either I get it, and half my army becomes practically unstoppable, or I don't and I get a bunch of mediocre powers. I don't bother any more these days.

 

Something that informs my choices, I often run an Ordo Malleus Psyker Inquisitor who takes Divination, so I'm always guaranteed at least one Prescience + Something else, which means I'm less reluctant to take Sanctic on my Librarian, and having access to Gate, Sanctuary and Cleansing Flame is very useful, IMO. Of course, it always sucks when you roll up a Hammerhand since it is literally useless unless you run the Librarian by himself (and who would do that?!) and Vortex is situationally awesome (or useless) but I still like to roll on Sanctic for the theme of it if nothing else.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Sanctic's biggest issue is that you can roll not just medicore powers, but redundant ones. At least when you roll on Divination or Telepathy, you're bringing buffs or hexes that we don't have by default anywhere. YMMV, but Liber's biggest draw for me is re-rolling 'Hammerhand' and 'Cleansing Flame' attempts on our infantry units. Oh, and 'Sanctuary' too, I always forget that one. 

[jeffersonian000]

GW has added a cheap Librarian option to each of the new Marine codexes, probably due to the addition of the new Psychic phase. However, they hit a near perfect unit of point efficiency with the GK version. From one point of view, the GK Librarian is a PML2 solo-Paladin that can go PML3 at a very reasonable cost. From another point of view, he's the best HQ option in the codex on a point for stats basis. Either way, he's what we want in a pure Psyker army.

 

On how I run mine, as I do take one in every list, I keep him with Staff, and upgrade him to PML3, add a Stormbolter (because it's modeled), add a Liber, make him my Warlord, and roll Sanctic. If I take a second Librarian (my Justicar Thawn model), he gets the Soul Glaive, a Stormbolter (modeled), PML3, and rolls on either Divination or Telepathy, depending on match up.

 

On Stormbolters, mine are glued on, so the Librarian pays for it. Me being a huge user of magnets to allow for every option, and the Librarian gaining Combi-weapons as an option, has placed me in a position where I just have to break the Stormbolter off, magnetize the arm, and craft at least one each -Flamer, -Melta, -Plasma option. I've decided to modify some spare Stormbolters into Combi's by swapping out the outside barrel for the appropriate one-shot weapon barrel. Currently, it's an ongoing project. From a meta gaming point of view, I'm leaning towards the Combi-Plasma due to Rapid Fire granting two S7 AP2 shots at 12", over the Combi-Melta (that's why we have Psycannons and Hammers), although the Combi-Flamer has merit in being able to generate hits.

 

On usage, specifically with Draigo, I line to pair my Libby up with Draigo in a squad of GKT for Gate shenanigans. However, if I fish up Gate on my Libby, I will run Draigo and the Libby in separate squads of GKT, for double the shenanigans (and let the Justicar tank challenges for the Libby).

 

SJ

[Prot]

Just as a side question... til recently I've been favouring the Cuirass of Sacrifice for it's return on investment, especially the FnP. Soul Glaive is written kind of obscure to me.... but it really only helps the libby correct? 

[jeffersonian000]

Soul Glaive re-rolls failed Force activation, which effects the unit. In addition, once Force is activated, the Soul Glaive re-rolls fail To Hit, To Wound, and Armor Pen rolls.

 

Technically, the Soul Glaive is better on a GM than it is on a Libby. However, the Cuirass of Sacrifice is way better on a GM than a Libby.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Soul Glaive re-rolls failed Force activation, which effects the unit. In addition, once Force is activated, the Soul Glaive re-rolls fail To Hit, To Wound, and Armor Pen rolls.

Technically, the Soul Glaive is better on a GM than it is on a Libby. However, the Cuirass of Sacrifice is way better on a GM than a Libby.

SJ

Okay so here's how I'm seeing this:

The glaive turns a mediocre assault Libby into good. Personally this may or may not come into effect during the course of a typical game.

 

Sacrifice I find is extremely important for me in every game especially because the Libby is only 2 wounds.

 

First off I am a master at periling myself. Which in subsequent rounds makes me extremely defensive during the psychic phase. I personally love the idea of getting the fnp against that. Plus every turn having the ability to grow that wound back.

 

This effect is even more important when said librarian is my warlord.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Soul Glaive really benefits from being on a Grand Master. Librarian only has 2 attacks normally, so it's much less useful on him. It's why many people swap the stave for falchions. It's free, and it gives the Libby 3A base which makes him a lot better at melee. 

 

Cuirass is great if you fry your Librarian a lot casting powers haha. But definitely consider going for a Grand Master in larger games. 

[jeffersonian000]

Well, I did say that the Glaive was better on a GM. Oddly enough, I think the Glaive might be best on a Techmarine attached to a unit of Purifiers.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, I did say that the Glaive was better on a GM. Oddly enough, I think the Glaive might be best on a Techmarine attached to a unit of Purifiers.

 

How so?

[Captain Coolpants]

I like putting hammers on my librarians, simply because your librarians are most likely going in a terminator squad, and our terminators usually always have some hammers, so I put the hammers on the librarians and remove some hammers from the terminators, saves you a handful of points, plus I'd rather an important weapon like a hammer on a ws5 guy, just accept any challenge with the justicar to keep the librarians safe.

[jeffersonian000]

 

Well, I did say that the Glaive was better on a GM. Oddly enough, I think the Glaive might be best on a Techmarine attached to a unit of Purifiers.

 

How so?

Re-rolling Force activation on a unit of actual CC focused GK, with added CC punch from the TM. Seems to synergize in my mind.

 

 

I like putting hammers on my librarians, simply because your librarians are most likely going in a terminator squad, and our terminators usually always have some hammers, so I put the hammers on the librarians and remove some hammers from the terminators, saves you a handful of points, plus I'd rather an important weapon like a hammer on a ws5 guy, just accept any challenge with the justicar to keep the librarians safe.

While the 5pts saved can be meaningful if 5pts is the difference between adding another unit or not, 5pts really isn't that huge of a savings when losing 3+ denials. I'll stick with the Staff on my main Libby. Second Libby still feels like a Glaive caddy, to me.

 

SJ

[Prot]

I personally prefer having an 'invisible' hammer. One that is stuck in a high 'value' character challenge seems to always bite me in the buttocks.

 

I tried it again recently and was reminded why I prefer not to do it. 

 

+++++++++

 

My Libby will stick with a stave for now, but the other weapons are up in the air. I prefer him vanilla with Draigo, but speaking of.....

 

Loadout of a Libby with Draigo:

- Do you necessarily drop Santic and go Diviniation? Or is the added Sanctic good?

- Now it might make more sense for Apothecary Paladin dudes when you're invested in a WC3 libby, and Draigo?

- Cuirass seems less important, I'm thinking if you stay Sanctic, take Liber Daemonica, if you go Divination perhaps Glaive is better?

- Further to divination: It makes a Combi Plasma gun more attractive to me for simply double the cost of the stormbolter

 

Thoughts on Libby + Draigo?

[jeffersonian000]

I always go Sanctic on my one Libby, the one with the Liber (Liber Libby, for short). Vortex, Cleansing Flame, and a 2nd Gate are very nice powers to fish for. 2nd Libby, well he can be the Diviner in the army, or the Telepath. Actually, if its Divination, I'd rather take a GM with Hammer and Psycannon than a 2nd Libby, but that's just me.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Out of curiosity why do you prefer gm over Libby as the second hq?

[jeffersonian000]

Out of curiosity why do you prefer gm over Libby as the second hq?

I don't.

 

SJ

[Arufel87]

Is it ever worth taking a cheap brother captain with hammer and psycannon? He has a high BS version of our best gun, is a lot cheaper than a power build GM and can still buff well with divination.

[Adeptus]

The upgrade is so cheap, I think it's always worthwhile.

[Prot]

 

Out of curiosity why do you prefer gm over Libby as the second hq?

I don't.

 

SJ

 

 

huh?

 

I'd rather take a GM with Hammer and Psycannon than a 2nd Libby, but that's just me

 

 

I'm confused now.

[jeffersonian000]

I always go Sanctic on my one Libby, the one with the Liber (Liber Libby, for short). Vortex, Cleansing Flame, and a 2nd Gate are very nice powers to fish for. 2nd Libby, well he can be the Diviner in the army, or the Telepath. Actually, if its Divination, I'd rather take a GM with Hammer and Psycannon than a 2nd Libby, but that's just me.

 

SJ

I bolded the exact statement. I said if it's Divination, I'd rather take the HQ that can best benefit from Divination, naming a Psycan card GM. Divination on a libby seems like a waste when it's best on a CC/Shooter platform, rather than buffer/psychic dom platform. Alas, I rarely take a 2nd Libby.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Re-rolling Force activation on a unit of actual CC focused GK, with added CC punch from the TM. Seems to synergize in my mind.

 

Wouldn't the Liber be better though, if you're rolling with Purifiers? 'Cleansing Flame' is gonna kill more usually, and Liber also helps with 'Hammerhand' activations, plus it's not just for the squad. 

 Do you necessarily drop Santic and go Diviniation? Or is the added Sanctic good?

 

Nah, still take Divination. If you roll good on 'Sanctic', that's cool. If not, it's still gonna be better than the awful Primaris, so no real loss. You'll usually have one obvious power to drop with Divination, so getting 'Prescience' back usually isn't an issue. It's re-rolls, they usually trump most other DIv powers besides stuff like 'Perfect Timing'. 

 Now it might make more sense for Apothecary Paladin dudes when you're invested in a WC3 libby, and Draigo?

 

Why are you taking Paladins?

- Cuirass seems less important, I'm thinking if you stay Sanctic, take Liber Daemonica, if you go Divination perhaps Glaive is better?

 

Either way, it's not much different. Cuirass and Liber are just better Relics. 

Is it ever worth taking a cheap brother captain with hammer and psycannon? He has a high BS version of our best gun, is a lot cheaper than a power build GM and can still buff well with divination. 

 

No. The Grand Master upgrade is cheap, as it not only gets you +1A, but also +1 Mastery Level. That's an extra power, and an extra Warp Charge. 

[Prot]

 

 Now it might make more sense for Apothecary Paladin dudes when you're invested in a WC3 libby, and Draigo?

 

Why are you taking Paladins?

 

 

For fun. I have my 1,000 pts assembled/painted, but to make the move to our normal games of 1850 I had to do it within 4 days. I've been assembling Paladins, Driago, and an Eversor (oh, also a second Libby) to get to 1850.

 

I'm sure I'll get spanked big time. I don't see this going well at all. lol

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eversor is fun. Like, he's probably the most killy Assassin, and he demands to be shot or they start losing whole squads to him lol. 

 

Draigo will keep Paladins alive, provided you position them right. It's not the best use of him, but it's better than most. It is a lot of points for like 6 dudes though :(

[Prot]

Heh, I haven't used an Eversor since 3rd. Should be fun...

 

I actually do see a time where I will try to replace one of the Libbies with a 10 man, combat squaded Purifier squad for 4 WC's, and dual Cleanse.

 

I have a feeling it could be a great equalizer in my meta. The libby is really fun, and a great force multiplier with the Termies, but the xenos stink my area is making me want to try this change to level the playing field.