Grey Knights vs Chaos Space Marines / Crimson Slaughter

[Prot]

This is kind of a strange question. I realize I'm asking this in the Grey Knight forum, but if these two codexes smash heads, which do you think is going to win most of the time?

 

Let's say we're not talking allies... which easily hits Chaos Space Marines/Crimson Slaughter as hard as it does Grey Knights.

 

Now why I ask this is I feel very comfortable using -any- unit in the CSM codex. I've played chaos for 18 years.... Grey Knights... not so much. But if you ask someone on the street who's familiar with this game, you get a lot of opinions on Grey Knights being O.P. 

 

In reality I started my GK with an open mind. A lot of these opinions are quite frankly just kids with knee jerk reactions to their friend's Dreadknight running over their 400 pt possessed squad. 

 

But as I've been experiencing the Grey Knights, it's really not feeling like a good match against spammy armies, period. It feels like as potent as one model can be, it can't compensate for fistfulls of dice coming at you. That being said, I'd say the opposite is true of an elite style army or unit.... wold you agree? Disagree?

 

Chaos specifically has a lot to choose from. You spend about 2 hours reading the Grey Knights codex and you soon realize you're focusing on 3-4 units. Chaos has lots of units, and a lot of them are pure crap. So while Chaos has more choice, I don't think that equates to 'quality'.

 

As I make Grey Knight lists, naturally I think of Chaos counters, or how would this work against that, etc, etc. So looking for batreps is hard.... not a lot to find out there.

 

So although I know of Grey Knight players, I'm the only one here. I have no one else to measure this off of so I thought I'd ask you guys if you find the CSM a push over? Or a typical loss? I'm assuming an 'daemon' unit for CSM is boned. But what about the rest of the list? Do you guys typically just run over it? 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But if you ask someone on the street who's familiar with this game, you get a lot of opinions on Grey Knights being O.P. 

 

Then you can pretty much disregard any opinion they have. Calling us broken while Daemons, Tau, Eldar and Necrons exist? Please. 

But as I've been experiencing the Grey Knights, it's really not feeling like a good match against spammy armies, period. It feels like as potent as one model can be, it can't compensate for fistfulls of dice coming at you. That being said, I'd say the opposite is true of an elite style army or unit.... wold you agree? Disagree?

 

Well actually our 2+ saves mean we're quite resistant to small arms, and even S6/7 spam. But our major drawback is we're making 2+ saves on a tiny number of models. Maybe you only fail a few saves, but it rapidly depletes your army. High risk, high reward. We don't get to sit in our DZ and blow other armies off the table like xenos or IG do. We have to alpha strike hard, then keep up the pressure all game or we lose. 

Chaos specifically has a lot to choose from. You spend about 2 hours reading the Grey Knights codex and you soon realize you're focusing on 3-4 units. Chaos has lots of units, and a lot of them are pure crap. So while Chaos has more choice, I don't think that equates to 'quality'

 

At least you have options. And I think CSM has more than 3-4 good units. Off the top of my head;

 

- Sorcerors are in many ways better than GK Librarians

- Daemon Princes, even without the Black Mace they're nightmare fuel to most armies

- Chosen bring melta and plasma spam at a reasonable price

- Terminators are okay as 3-man suicide squads, which demand to be killed or they start ripping squads apart

- Plague Marines are arguably the best PA squad in the game

- Cultists provide cheap scoring

- Heldrakes, even with the nerf, are still horrifying against anything not in 2+ armour

- Obliterators are broken, especially with MoN, and have been the crutch for every iteration of CSM since the dawn of time

- Havoks are great with autocannons, a weapon type Marines don't normally get on their fire support units

 

Then you have BB with Daemons, which is a pretty big deal. 

So although I know of Grey Knight players, I'm the only one here. I have no one else to measure this off of so I thought I'd ask you guys if you find the CSM a push over? Or a typical loss? I'm assuming an 'daemon' unit for CSM is boned. But what about the rest of the list? Do you guys typically just run over it? 

 

Generally depends on how many Obliterators we're fighting. Twin-linked lascannon kills DK's pretty hard, and when you have 9x Oblits it's horrendous (especially when next turn they switch to plasma cannon and start nuking our infantry). We do outclass CSM in the Psychic phase, but not if they bring Daemon Allies for WC spam. As always though, if we manage to get into melee alive, it's very one-sided. Daemon Princes do kill DK's as well, but they have to land first now to charge, which gives us a turn to shoot them at normal BS, and even counter-assault. 

[Prot]

 

Chaos specifically has a lot to choose from. You spend about 2 hours reading the Grey Knights codex and you soon realize you're focusing on 3-4 units. Chaos has lots of units, and a lot of them are pure crap. So while Chaos has more choice, I don't think that equates to 'quality'

 

At least you have options. And I think CSM has more than 3-4 good units. Off the top of my head;

 

- Sorcerors are in many ways better than GK Librarians

- Daemon Princes, even without the Black Mace they're nightmare fuel to most armies

- Chosen bring melta and plasma spam at a reasonable price

- Terminators are okay as 3-man suicide squads, which demand to be killed or they start ripping squads apart

- Plague Marines are arguably the best PA squad in the game

- Cultists provide cheap scoring

- Heldrakes, even with the nerf, are still horrifying against anything not in 2+ armour

- Obliterators are broken, especially with MoN, and have been the crutch for every iteration of CSM since the dawn of time

- Havoks are great with autocannons, a weapon type Marines don't normally get on their fire support units

 

 

 

 

- Sorcs are good, but unless in a Daemon Summoning army (which to be 100% honest is so hard to work, I gave up on it), everyone skips them in a competitive environment for the other stuff (much of what you mention). Actually I am the only one I know who plays a sorc (that doesn't daemon bomb).  Still I think GK would shut it right down. I'd give chaos Sorcs about a 7 out of 10.

 

- Daemon Princes. I'll give you that one. Since I've been using one since 3rd edition I admit I tired of it, but for sure it is a solid choice.

 

The rest is 'okay', until we get to Cultists. They are so incredibly bad... so very bad. Overpriced guardsman who run if someone farts in their general direction. The only good ones are Typhus zombies... Otherwise I despise them but still feel forced to field them.

 

- Obliterators broken is just the one item in your list I have to outright disagree with. Being forced to use something isn't an indicator of being broken.  It's an indication that Defilers, Forgefiends, and Landraiders suck. Obliterators have been strong, but continually nerfed until now they are unable to snap fire, can't use the same weapon two times in a row (that one still baffles me) and they lost their inherent T5 while going up in price.  If you saw the chaos community's reaction to Centurions.... well let's just leave it at that. 

 

- No one uses Havoks in competition in 7th edition. I haven't seen a squad of Autocannon Havoks since the codex came out. They're an 'okay' choice.

 

- Heldrakes sure took a notch down with the nerf, (not just the fart-fire nerf, but the Vector nerf) but I agree. I put them away for a while because undoubtedly the most used, and revered Fast Attack choice for Chaos is actually bikers. But I ended up revisiting the Bale-drake and find it's still 'must take' for me since chaos is often at a numerical disadvantage. (Heavy incinerators often fill a similar role.)

 

Still though, I imagine GK would tool most of this. The Obliterators can't hide, and cultsists are a joke. One volley of stormbolters away from running to the nearest McDonald's. And anything with 'daemon'... let's face it, is probably screwed. Most of the HQ's simply can't deal with the Force wielding Termies.

 

I have to imagine there is little chance my best Chaos list (all comers though) could do against my best Grey Knight list. But I confess I've not played Chaos against Grey Knights in many years. But on paper at least, it seems like a very good match up for GK.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

- Sorcs are good, but unless in a Daemon Summoning army (which to be 100% honest is so hard to work, I gave up on it), everyone skips them in a competitive environment for the other stuff (much of what you mention). Actually I am the only one I know who plays a sorc (that doesn't daemon bomb).  Still I think GK would shut it right down. I'd give chaos Sorcs about a 7 out of 10.

 

Well considering Tzeentch Heralds need zero help spamming WC and Conjurations, yeah you don't really take him for that. I meant more as your mandatory HQ. He's cheap, even at Mastery 3, and he has great Lore options. It sucks he misses out on Divination though, it does hold him back. But he's still a great Marine psyker, and a solid choice over the Warpsmith and Dark Chaplain. Chaos Lords are kinda meh to me, you have DP's as beatsticks and Lords don't really do anything for the army, not the way a Sorceror can. 

The rest is 'okay', until we get to Cultists. They are so incredibly bad... so very bad. Overpriced guardsman who run if someone farts in their general direction. The only good ones are Typhus zombies... Otherwise I despise them but still feel forced to field them.

 

You're missing the point. They're your cheap objective holders, and they block charge lanes. They are chaff, but that's exactly what makes them so great, even in an Allied detachment. They're dirt-cheap Troops spam, that compliments your elite CSM units by bulking out your army. Marines don't normally get chaff to hold ground and bulk out their army, not without Allies. GK once had Henchmen, but they've since been removed. 

- Obliterators broken is just the one item in your list I have to outright disagree with. Being forced to use something isn't an indicator of being broken.  It's an indication that Defilers, Forgefiends, and Landraiders suck. Obliterators have been strong, but continually nerfed until now they are unable to snap fire, can't use the same weapon two times in a row (that one still baffles me) and they lost their inherent T5 while going up in price.  If you saw the chaos community's reaction to Centurions.... well let's just leave it at that. 

 

I won't argue with Defilers and LR's, they both are awful and overcosted garbage, especially in 7th. Forgefiends are okay, the triple S8 AP2 blast guy is at least viable, if a little pricey. 

 

Who cares about Snap-Firing? You have autocannon Havoks for nailing Flyers. Not being able to fire the same weapon is rarely an issue, you usually spam lascannon one turn, then plasma cannon the next (you often have new priority targets anyway, I've never seen it really hold them back on-table, even though on paper it looks crippling). Who cares about losing inherent T5? That's why you take Mark of Nurgle and laugh off S8 hits. 

 

If CSM players are really complaining about Centurions, they are deluding themselves. Oblits are better in every way. Native DS, 2+/5+, Fearless, free powerfists because why not...that's what's most stupid about Oblits. If they just shot really hard, that wouldn't be such an issue, because you could tie them in melee and maybe even kill them. With MoN though, you need 'Force' weapons or S10 to insta-gib, and on top of that you probably need AP2. See the issue? Most AP2 is unwieldy, and there are few units, even MCs or characters, that can create ID effects in melee on demand. Usually only psykers with force axes/hammers, or Draigo. 

- No one uses Havoks in competition in 7th edition. I haven't seen a squad of Autocannon Havoks since the codex came out. They're an 'okay' choice.

 

Probably because most xenos lists can kill them very easily. It's sad actually, if Marine hate wasn't so prevalent, they'd be an excellent third Heavy choice. As is, you just take 3 more Nurgle Obliterators and call it a day. 

- Heldrakes sure took a notch down with the nerf, (not just the fart-fire nerf, but the Vector nerf) but I agree. I put them away for a while because undoubtedly the most used, and revered Fast Attack choice for Chaos is actually bikers. But I ended up revisiting the Bale-drake and find it's still 'must take' for me since chaos is often at a numerical disadvantage. (Heavy incinerators often fill a similar role.)

 

Well he's a crutch, same as Oblits. If your list doesn't have at least one, you don't have efficient infantry clearance, seeing as Defiliers are ded. 

Still though, I imagine GK would tool most of this. The Obliterators can't hide, and cultsists are a joke. One volley of stormbolters away from running to the nearest McDonald's. And anything with 'daemon'... let's face it, is probably screwed. Most of the HQ's simply can't deal with the Force wielding Termies.

 

Well the thing is, CSM have never really needed their character roster. Like ever. Typhus is taken for that janky Zombie list that xenos still remove without even noticing the difference (lol T3 FNP, any S6 hit still negates it). Anyway, you know you're taking Daemon Princes as HQ anyway, and they're plenty scary to GK. They can kill DK's at I7 fairly reliably, and remove Terminators with the same impunity. We have to commit a Grand Master or Draigo to kill a Daemon Prince. 

 

Cultists literally don't matter. If they die, it's wasted firepower on the GK player's part. The only time you'd ever shoot at them is if they're blocking a charge lane, or they're camping an objective. Ie, being annoying and effective chaff. So, don't feel like they're a waste. Spam 10-man units and laugh as people can't kill them off efficiently. 

 

Our anti-Daemon bonuses matter more against Daemon infantry than MC's or vehicles. Soul Grinders and Forgefiends are still scary as hell to GK, and Princes/Bloodthirsters will rip entire squads apart before going down. 

I have to imagine there is little chance my best Chaos list (all comers though) could do against my best Grey Knight list. But I confess I've not played Chaos against Grey Knights in many years. But on paper at least, it seems like a very good match up for GK.

 

On paper. In reality, Obliterators just take us to pieces, and you mop up the remnants with Daemon Princes and Plague Marines spamming plasma shots into us. We don't even have any vehicles normally. 

[Emicus]

I bow down to both previous posters collected wisdom of the proverbial ages, however I hope to be able to provide a fresh and naive look.

 

I feel one of the most important things to remember with the hobby is that the meta is always different and meta always changes, sometimes rapidly! When I read about things online or watch battle reports I sometimes scratch my head and wonder what on earth is it those guys are doing, but it does seem to work for them. So when I ask about advice or tactics etc on the web, experiences and metas all different, you get some interesting answers. Darius for one has been accused several times of being super black and white on the subject of units being worth the plastic they are made from or utter trash, but he faces some tough as nails competition. At the club I play there is more or less an unspoken agreement about not going absolutely balls to the wall, because it allows for more creative list building and hopefully more entertaining games.
       If you play against a noob, don't pull out all the stops to crush his soul and laugh at the end of turn 2, because what do you get out of it yourself?

But if one wants to play high level, use every "dirty trick" and pull all the stops, that is fine too, if that is what you want to play - but that all comes back to the local meta.

 

As for CSM I haven't fought any yet, but daemons is another story. I too thought that daemons would be almost a walk-over, but they can pull some cheeky tricks. Flyers, 2++invuln, rerolling 1s for a start. Free bloodthirsters aside, facing someone with more WC than you really put a hamper on our critical psychic phase because all of a sudden someone is actually capable of dispelling a fair share of it. And Soulgrinders, hot damn, they can lay down the hurt.

 

Even the meagre 10 daemonettes (which he'll get for free mind you) can put a dent into a terminator squad. Sure they lose their charge bonus attack to psyk-out grenades but even if they take out 1 terminator it's a win-win for your opponent. Running an inquisitor with your terminators I feel is almost key to mitigate this, since they have the old psyk-out grenades knocking them down to I1, then also losing charge bonus to GK psyk-outs.

 

For the GK is OP side of things: people are dumb as a rule, individuals are not. Hive-mind does not combine intellect, it's the lowest common denominator. Perhaps they were OP last edition (I wouldn't know, sure as hell sounds better in the old book) and people haven't caught on to the idea that they have been updated yet.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius for one has been accused several times of being super black and white on the subject of units being worth the plastic they are made from or utter trash, but he faces some tough as nails competition. At the club I play there is more or less an unspoken agreement about not going absolutely balls to the wall, because it allows for more creative list building and hopefully more entertaining games.

       If you play against a noob, don't pull out all the stops to crush his soul and laugh at the end of turn 2, because what do you get out of it yourself?

But if one wants to play high level, use every "dirty trick" and pull all the stops, that is fine too, if that is what you want to play - but that all comes back to the local meta.

 

Well I wanna be clear, we do play alt lists or even other factions to mix things up. 

[Emicus]

No slight in any way to you Darius! You were just such a good example for my point, where I have seen several discussions on the board where other people have tried to... snipe you. I just think it boils down to the local meta thing, where it appears you have a very competitive one and base your experience around that, where less good units aren't just less good but outright garbage, whereas for me they might just be a poor choice.

 

I do put a lot of stock in what you write though, as your experience and opinions clearly shine through.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No slight in any way to you Darius! You were just such a good example for my point, where I have seen several discussions on the board where other people have tried to... snipe you. I just think it boils down to the local meta thing, where it appears you have a very competitive one and base your experience around that, where less good units aren't just less good but outright garbage, whereas for me they might just be a poor choice.

 

Oh I know you weren't having a go, no worries. But I do wanna stress that WAAC is a meme perpetrated by awful players and those who play awful lists. It's a myth they construct to shield them from realities, like their homebrew is so bad not even their friends have trouble beating them with equally little knowledge of the game. The cynical and the bitter don't help anyone, nor do those who speak only in vague generalities and never actually back up their feelings with fact. I know I'm salty about our 7th edition incarnation, and I don't hide it. But I'm equally passionate about getting viable and fun builds out of it, crippled as it is by GW's haphazard approach to internal balance. We're still not the worst army in 40k though, so small blessings and all that. 

 

My intent is always to inform, and correct falsehoods. I do not intend to cause offence, but no one likes hearing they're wrong (I don't either lol). I'm always willing to change my mind though, and be proven wrong. Just as I hope to change other people's mind when I consider them to be on the wrong track. 

 

I do put a lot of stock in what you write though, as your experience and opinions clearly shine through.

 

 

Cheers :) I do try and be informative and helpful. That's why I wrote the Primers, and why I comment on most threads. Engagement is how you learn, and later on how you inform others once you've learned enough. I like to think the GK forum we have is one of the better communities on B&C, if not the 40k community in general.