GreyCrow Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Greetings dark brothers, I've finally gave in to my secret desires and got myself the Dark Vengeance set to start both a Dark Angel army and a Chaos army as well ! I have to admit that I'm stunned by the models and I can definitely see how this Chosen set up might work well on the tabletop :) For the next purchase, I was going to get the Crimson Slaughter expansion set (with the Land Raider, the terminators and the Raptors) to make a 1250 points army. Any comments on their synergy with the base Dark Vengeance models ? I was thinking of using the Raptors with 2 meltas and a Power Fist, buff up the melee cultists, and use the Land Raider to deliver the Chosen unit with a Lord and Dark Apostle (playing the original Aspiring Champion as the Apostle because he has the same kit). Additionally, any tips for a newbie Chaotic guy ? Anyways, I can't wait to try battling on the other side of reason :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Welcome to true enlightenment. Your road will be rocky and tough at times but the best rewards are always hard earned. In regards to the Cultists. Keep em cheap. Use them as the sacrifices they are so you can make the most out of your more point heavy units. That's all I'm going to add myself as I'm sure there are many other members with better advice and experience than myself ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 However don't under-estimate what Cultists can achieve. I've used blobs of 20 to good effect when they've been ignored as "not worth shooting at", to inflict a decent number of wounds due to sheer rate of fire. Getting 20 with autoguns within 12" gives 40 attacks, of which on average 20 hit, and against most foes, between 7 to 10 wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 But keep em cheap ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I personally can't stand cultists. They're overpriced Guardsmen with twice the attitude and half the skill. But then again I don't play zombies and otherwise the only selling point I have of cultists is the Helcult formation which doesn't give ObSec nor fill a list requirement (CAD) Chosen? Chosen are cool. Great models. Probably best used in Black Legion but I have been using them with my Crimson Slaughter and really enjoying the 'fun' factor of my buddy Draznicht. The problem is delivery system. CSM Screams for pods but they simply will not give them to us. So this is our problem.... delivery of units. If you can infiltrate your Chosen, great. Otherwise you have to be sly, and crafty to get them somewhere. While your opponent's Sternguard will be dropping right on top of you, you will have to maneuver a beat up rhino that a Cultist hasn't changed the oil on for 10 years... or perhaps a Landraider, taking a valuable heavy slot.... It's a hard choice. The box set is good. I wanted to pick up the new, DV expansion for Chaos but one thing I don't need is another landraider which is a great deal of the cost. ++++EDIT++++ My "poetic" thoughts on the Cultist: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304719-ode-to-the-cultist/?p=3979559 Sorry I couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Unless you want to use the Dark Angels as intended, you could make some of the Fallen from the DA to further expand your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 An Apostle isn't a very good combat HQ, which is I think what you would use him as if you put him in a LR. Actually in my opinion an Apostle isn't very good at anything except giving a big cultist blob Edit: LD 10 (I initially thought it was Fearless, but it's not. Gods Apostles suck, has anyone used them effectively?) for objective camping and obsec. Since you are playing Crimson Slaughter, you might want to just take "Kranon" ie a Chaos Lord with the Slaughterers Horns and the sword that gets better as you kill, along with a Sigil of Corruption and an optional Boon of Mutation if you're a gambling man. Also, if you're using a LR assault unit, you might as well take Berzerkers since the Chosen are rather overpriced for what they do in assault, especially with the DV mish mash of weapons. Just give the 'zerker champ a powerfist, and use the Chaos Lord for mandatory challenges against squad leaders. Just stay away from actual melee death stars. A unit of Lych Guard with an Overlord with the super warscythe will still wreck you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Thanks for the comments guys ! Your insights were duly noted and I'll probably get my ass whooped a lot of time until I get the flow of the army (which I can foresee being *vastly* different than my Raven Guard), but I'll persevere :p I'm definitely going to follow your advice and keep the cultists as cheap as possible to still have Troops choices and free up points for more killy stuff. That's something that I find really great compared to our Loyalist equivalent : we can afford to have fancy units that are quite superior over the regular squad of Chaos Marines thanks to having cheap fodder troops like the Cultists. Regarding the Dark Apostle, I wanted to use them as a secondary HQ mostly to give Zealot to the unit of Chosen that would escort my Lord as a primary HQ. I haven't got the CS supplement yet and I'm really undecided as to how I would play the game or which theme I would gravitate towards. The idea was to have the Land Raider with a unit of 6 chosen (using the Vrosh Tattersoul as a regular Aspiring Champion, but with the same gear he has) with the same gear as the Dark Vengeance squad as an escort for a Murder Sword lord with a Dark Apostle. I understand however that many people recommend gearing the Chosen up with 4 special weapons over close combat (though I would feel that Havocs might be more points efficient for that role) instead of the CC option, but coming from the Marines Codex I'm amazed by their base wargear (with 3 base attacks thanks to the extra close combat weapon which screams melee unit for me ^^). Like you said, the delivery is a challenge (and yeah, Chosen in pods would be amazing) hence why I gravitated towards the Land Raider from the expansion kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Dont sell cultists short i just had a 500 point game vs daemons my list was Level 3 sorceror on santic sigil + familiar 20 cultists 18 auto guns shot gun stubber 10 cultists 2 obliterators My cultists were capturing tactical objectives like a bosd the 20 man blob shot 7 flesh hounds to death the 10 man squad beat up a tzeench herald in combat i lost 9-6 but the cultists were great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm a huge fan of Helcult Cultists, less so CSM or Supplemental ones, and will try out KDK cultists this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Interesting experience there with the Cultists, I'm starting to get anxious to try them out :D Speaking of which, you guys are definitely right saying the Dark Apostle works much much better with cultist blobs than as a reroll machine. I was thinking Chaplain over Dark Apostle, I've only just recently sworn allegiance to the dark gods so my mind still remembers the doctrines of the false emperor :p I was actually thinking about going with a markless ML3 sorcerer. Telepathy looks a lot more useful with ML3 and in the Chaos Marines (since we're not fearless), and obviously we have access to Divination :D I giggle a little inside picturing a ML3 buffmachine in the form of a Sorcerer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Grey Crow santic daemonology is another great discipline to have your sorceror use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Grey Crow santic daemonology is another great discipline to have your sorceror use To be honest, I never gave much thought about Sanctic Daemonology because I felt it was too risky, but now that you've mentionned it, the powers are actually quite nice, if not a bit dangerous :D But a Chaos Sorcerer using the powers of the Grey Knights would be the ultimate defilement :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Grey Crow santic daemonology is another great discipline to have your sorceror use To be honest, I never gave much thought about Sanctic Daemonology because I felt it was too risky, but now that you've mentionned it, the powers are actually quite nice, if not a bit dangerous :D But a Chaos Sorcerer using the powers of the Grey Knights would be the ultimate defilement :p LOL my sorceror used them and yes its dangerous but so so worth it hammerhand + sanctuary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Interesting experience there with the Cultists, I'm starting to get anxious to try them out :D Speaking of which, you guys are definitely right saying the Dark Apostle works much much better with cultist blobs than as a reroll machine. I was thinking Chaplain over Dark Apostle, I've only just recently sworn allegiance to the dark gods so my mind still remembers the doctrines of the false emperor :p I was actually thinking about going with a markless ML3 sorcerer. Telepathy looks a lot more useful with ML3 and in the Chaos Marines (since we're not fearless), and obviously we have access to Divination :D I giggle a little inside picturing a ML3 buffmachine in the form of a Sorcerer... We only have Divination through Huron. Sucks, but there you go. Welcome to the Long War! Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonsteelcrusade Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 First off where did helcult cultists come from,and secound dont we have forgeworld dreadclaws as are drop pods. sorry if these are dumb questions but im a newbie in this edition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Helcult cultists comes from a formation that was released at the same time has the new Dread model. It gets you 2 cultists units and 1 dread, the Dread give Fearless to the cultists if they stay close to him, and for each shot taken at the Dread he gets a 3+ cover save from the hordes of Cultists that swarms around hom, for each succesfull cover save, you loose a cultist. if the dread gets destroyed they get the Zealot rule iirc. Welcome new Brother finnaly fresh blood for the grinde...erhm for the combat!. You will let go of your inhibitions and fears and welcome in your heart the only truth, Blood must Flow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Interesting experience there with the Cultists, I'm starting to get anxious to try them out Speaking of which, you guys are definitely right saying the Dark Apostle works much much better with cultist blobs than as a reroll machine. I was thinking Chaplain over Dark Apostle, I've only just recently sworn allegiance to the dark gods so my mind still remembers the doctrines of the false emperor I was actually thinking about going with a markless ML3 sorcerer. Telepathy looks a lot more useful with ML3 and in the Chaos Marines (since we're not fearless), and obviously we have access to Divination I giggle a little inside picturing a ML3 buffmachine in the form of a Sorcerer... We only have Divination through Huron. Sucks, but there you go. Welcome to the Long War! Dragonlover Actually Balestar of Manon. I use it lots... all the time. It's surprising how much less useful it feels in Chaos than it does with... Centurions! lol But seriously, I play Crimson Slaughter so I will tell you I really actually like the Dark Apostle. But I like him better with Cultists. (there's a bubble effect, and hatred helps those little turds too.) BUT for chosen... I use Chosen a TON. And my big thing is putting Draznicht in there. Forget the Apostle, BUT you must hide Draznicht. He's no fool... but he's a wicked force multiplier. Basically the same role as the Dark Apostle. if you play Black Legion, you're lucky you can get ObSec from the Chosen which is really sweet. I get ObSec from those Cultist tools if they aren't running, or Possessed. Sometimes, quite honeslty I wish I had stayed Black Legion for that reason. The colour scheme is far easier to me, and the Chosen are a really solid (but expensive if you're not careful) option and ObSec. But at the end of the day they're just Space Marine Vets with more options. With options comes overpricing though...be conservative. As you build your first lists I think you'll see how expensive everything gets... forcing to back off of 'fun' stuff and backloading your lack of bodies with the likes of cultists / spawns / zombies / vanilla CSM. The first time you have your vanilla CSM run and never come back you'll see the pain in your eyes, and remember when those men knew no fear. Kiss those days goodbye. :) I think the diversity of chaos is king though... perfect example: I can't stand dreadnoughts/helbrutes, nor Cultists. But combined in a Helcult it's a really fun, and usable combo. (Actually all the Helbrute ones are at least mildly useful to very useful.) Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 We only have Divination through Huron. Sucks, but there you go. Welcome to the Long War! Dragonlover Thanks for pointing it out, I was definitely convinced that Chaos Sorcerers had access to Divination, but I was wrong. Hmm, now the choice between a Sorcerer and a Dark Apostle becomes a lot less clear... The idea behind taking Divination (or at least one power from the kit) was to swap it out for Prescience and in essence get a less reliable Hatred, but now the Apostle could work out. If I go sorcerer though, Telepathy it is then. :) @Slayer and Prot : I just got the Helbrute dataslates and the Helcult does sound like a lot of fun :D I didn't see any points value associated with the formation so I assume it's free (compared to other formations costing like 50 to 100 points), right ? I can defiinitely see how it's going to be useful and buff up the cultist squads quite nicely, teehee ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yup you got it. Most of the formations don't have a cost anymore. I think at the time they wanted to sell Helbrute models so this is potentially the best dataslate you're going to find for Chaos. But it is fun. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 You can also give a sorceror access to divination via balestar of manon a crimson slaughrer artefact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yup you got it. Most of the formations don't have a cost anymore. I think at the time they wanted to sell Helbrute models so this is potentially the best dataslate you're going to find for Chaos. But it is fun. It does sound nasty indeed, and since I have the models and they give you free special rules, might as well use them :p Quick question though, I've never fielded a formation, but it's outside of the FOC, right ? Meaning my cultists are no longer troops and my army becomes unbound ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes. The Dataslate is just another detachment, outside of your other units. On its own it is unbound. However you can make it a secondary detachment to your main one (which is what I do). Make your CAD your main detachment, leave enough points for your Helbrute formation and you're good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes. The Dataslate is just another detachment, outside of your other units. On its own it is unbound. However you can make it a secondary detachment to your main one (which is what I do). Make your CAD your main detachment, leave enough points for your Helbrute formation and you're good to go.Not quite. A Formation is a special type of detachment. Period. If you only field formations, the army is battle-forged (as all units are organized in detachments). You can field as many detachments as you like. The army is only unbound if at least one unit is not in any detachment. Depending on the formation and the rest of the army, the formation can even be your primary detachment (i.e. the one that contains your Warlord) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes, that is true. Unbound is really just grabbing a fist full of models and saying you're ready for a game. His question was on Unbound. Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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