Best assassin for grey knights.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But it's resolved at the same time.

 

So if the power allowing you to move 12" stops, then it stops for *all* members of the unit, right?

 

At the same time.

 

Yeah, but in your example, the other 19 wizard had already moved. Harry gets caught though. 

[Gentlemanloser]

They all move at the same time. :)  I just physically move the other 19 before Harry.

 

Still all at the same time, and at the time they all move 12", the power allowing them to move 12" ceases to be.

 

What happens to their brooms?

[Ishagu]

Surely as GK are also lacking long range punch, the Vindicare is a good match also

[Gentlemanloser]

Too easily killed, too easily neutered by Look Out Sir.

 

Great for punching a hole into a Land Raider though.  But shunting NDKs do that as well.

[jeffersonian000]

Ah Jeff. When does the effect of a Psychic Power end?

 

Basically, you're advocating the ability to shoot a Culexes with a magic mind bullet. As the casting of it finishes when the magic mind bullet is created.

 

Not after you've resolved the attack.

As I said, read the power, apply the effect. There is no blanket answer that covers all powers. When does the power end? When the power says it ends.

 

SJ

[Happy-inquisitor]

'Wingardium Levioso' ends when Harry is within 12" of the Culexus. How is that hard to understand?

Missing the problem still.

Squad Hogwarts (20 man strong) all move an extra 12" due to levitation. 19 members move the full 12" and don;'t hit a Culexes.

Harry however, the 20th member of the Squad, moves last, and managed to clip a Culexes bubble after moving only 1".

What happens to the Squad?

Do the other 19 members keep their 12" movement because they have already moved? Is only Harry stopped? Do the whole Squad get to move only 1"? What happens if there isn't enough physical space to place the other 19 members after a 1" move?

Same as any other situation where you mess up your movement and do not maintain unit coherence. Move the others back until you are in coherence and have made a legal move. The unit does not really move one at a time, you just don't have 20 hands (or if you do, keep it to yourself).

The deep strike is trickier but I really think the easiest way to handle the whole thing is to treat that 12" bubble as impassable terrain to any warp-dust powered movement or placement of any kind - so then resolve it as moving or deep striking into impassable terrain.

[jeffersonian000]

The deep strike is trickier but I really think the easiest way to handle the whole thing is to treat that 12" bubble as impassable terrain to any warp-dust powered movement or placement of any kind - so then resolve it as moving or deep striking into impassable terrain.

If only the rules agreed with you. However, no such ruling would apply apart from a house ruling. Gate does not tell us that it lasts throughout the Psychic phase, nor until next turn. It tells us to pull the unit off the table and immediately return it via Deep Strike. The power is effectively completed as soon as the cast is finished, with the return to the table dependent on Deep Strike, not the power. I still say that in this case, the Culexus bubble only effects that casting of Gate, not the arrival of the Gated unit, due to the wording of both rules.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Move the others back until you are in coherence and have made a legal move.

 

There is no legal move.

 

As the power that allowed it has ceased to be.

 

 

 

Gate does not tell us that it lasts throughout the Psychic phase, nor until next turn. It tells us to pull the unit off the table and immediately return it via Deep Strike. The power is effectively completed as soon as the cast is finished

 

Nope.

 

It's over when it's finished.

 

As in you have legally placed the unit back on board.

 

Until you finish the Gate move, Gate has not finished.

 

Edit: The last step of the Psychic Phase is "resolve psychic power".

 

Which tells us "resolve its effects according to the instructions on its entry".

 

The Power has not ended until the instructions are resolved.

 

For Gate, this includes the placement of the minis on the table, as that's part of Gates instructions.

 

Until they have been resolved (using the Deep Strike rules, which involves Scatter), the power has not finished.

 

There's no such thing as *casting* a psychic power.  That's a term you have created, and doesn't exist in the rulebook anywhere.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

The deep strike is trickier but I really think the easiest way to handle the whole thing is to treat that 12" bubble as impassable terrain to any warp-dust powered movement or placement of any kind - so then resolve it as moving or deep striking into impassable terrain.

If only the rules agreed with you. However, no such ruling would apply apart from a house ruling. Gate does not tell us that it lasts throughout the Psychic phase, nor until next turn. It tells us to pull the unit off the table and immediately return it via Deep Strike. The power is effectively completed as soon as the cast is finished, with the return to the table dependent on Deep Strike, not the power. I still say that in this case, the Culexus bubble only effects that casting of Gate, not the arrival of the Gated unit, due to the wording of both rules.

 

SJ

 

 

Until the last model is back on the table you are still performing Gate - if it ceases to be in effect before you finish then you are in trouble. As soon as the first model is placed within 12" of mister-no-warp the effect stops which with other models in limbo is a BAD THING the only BRB method of resolution for which is the mishap table.

 

Honestly we can all think up lots of different fun options for this but the BRB gives us an obvious mechanism which I can see no reason at all not to use.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, my way breaks no rules and works without issue, your way requires house rules to work. I'll stick with my way.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Jeff your way just ignores the printed psychic phase rules. Is as much a house rule as any answer to this.

 

As gw have not covered this situation.

[jeffersonian000]

Jeff your way just ignores the printed psychic phase rules. Is as much a house rule as any answer to this.

 

As gw have not covered this situation.

Incorrect. I am in fact simply playing it as it is written.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

No, you're really not.

 

Take another look as the Resolve Power (section 5 IIRC) of manifesting a Psychic Power.

 

The power is not reslved, until all the instructions listed in the power are resolved.

 

Gate specifically mentions placing the unit back on the table.

 

As such, that is part and parcel of manifesting Gate, as you cannot resolve the power until the unit has been placed back on the board.

 

*That* is the RAW.

 

(And is also why you can't mind bullet a Culexes.  As you have to resolve the shooting attack generated by the power, before the power itself can be resolved...)

[Ishagu]

Gent is correct, and like I said - the Culexus assasin just doesn't gel with Grey Knights IMO as he interferes with them.

Gk aren't bleeding warp charges these days. Between a few castings and blessings like Sanctuary we don't have much to spare....

[Prot]

I did look at re-introducing my Eversor but after his fail attempt in a game I've re-named  him Ever-sore.

 

I also did a points comparison on the Assassins vs Purifiers (even 5) in a Rhino... I think I'll get much more mileage out of the Purifiers to be honest. I can see other armies benefiting from him much more though.

[jeffersonian000]

No, you're really not.

 

Take another look as the Resolve Power (section 5 IIRC) of manifesting a Psychic Power.

 

The power is not reslved, until all the instructions listed in the power are resolved.

 

Gate specifically mentions placing the unit back on the table.

 

As such, that is part and parcel of manifesting Gate, as you cannot resolve the power until the unit has been placed back on the board.

 

*That* is the RAW.

 

(And is also why you can't mind bullet a Culexes. As you have to resolve the shooting attack generated by the power, before the power itself can be resolved...)

Please re-think your argument. My position is that each power should be evaluated individually as to how it's effects interact with the Culexus bubble, and then follow the rules as written. That is straight out of the BRB as written. No house ruling, no rule breaking, just RAW.

 

In the case of Gate, I am stating that power ends where the rules for Deep Strike take over, specifically that scatter is a DS mechanic, not a psychic power mechanic, due to the wording of the power. No rules are broken, nor bypassed, nor house ruled, when scatter is followed as written regardless of whether or not that scatter ends inside the Culexus bubble. Manifestation of the power has to occur outside of the bubble, the effect cannot target the Culexus, and the effect ends as soon as it crosses the circle defined by the bubble. Scatter is not an effect of the power, it's a consequence of the DS rules, which we are told to use after manifesting Gate.

 

Does the Culexus cause summoned units to immediately de-spawn? No, it doesn't.

 

Does the Culexus cause a Levitating unit to stop at it's bubble? Yes, it does.

 

There is no blanket answer beyond read the rules as written, and apply the rules as written. Once you start implementing rules that aren't written, you are going off into HYWPI land.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

In the case of Gate, I am stating that power ends where the rules for Deep Strike take over

 

And that's wrong.

 

Please look at the resolving a psychic power section.

 

You resolve the instructions on the power.

 

Part of Gate "it then immediately arrives anywhere on the board".

 

Gate does not resolve, until *this* instruction on it's power description is resolved.

 

There is no separating it into the Deep Strike rule and not being part of the power.

 

That isn't RAW.

 

 

 

There is no blanket answer beyond read the rules as written, and apply the rules as written.

 

You are demonstratably *not* applying the rules as written in the Psychic Phase.

 

Section 5.  Resolving a Psychic Power.

 

Page 26;

 

"Resolve its effects according to the instructions on its entry"

[jeffersonian000]

Weird. My copy of the current GK codex has the last sentence of Gate of Infinity as, "It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike." My copy of the BRB has Deep Strike listed as a USR, not a psychic power. GML, are refering to an FAQ or something?

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Nope.  The 7th edition BRB.  With Gate from the Sanctic power list.

 

And yup, it's uses the rules for the Deep Strike USR to resolve placing the unit on the board.  But that process is still part of the instructions for resolving the Psychic Power, and as such, the Gate power does not resolve itself until the unit is placed on the board.

 

How has no bearing.

 

The instructions for Gate include placing the unit.  That's all we need to know for when Gate ends.

 

Gate does not end, it does not resolve its manifestaiton, until the unit is immediately placed on the board using the rules for Deep Strike to do so.  When the Deep strike is finished, Gate is resolved.

 

Again, this is why you can't use Hallucination, or any mind bullets.  As part of thier instructions is the resolution of the attacks.  Smite doesn't end with the warp charge roll.  Smite ends when you resolve the Shooting Attack it grants.

[jeffersonian000]

So how would you resolve the Gate issue without creating new rules?

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

My point is you can't.  RAW fails.

 

GW have implemented a new rule (the bubble of ceases) without catering for its impact.

 

There's many different RAI ways of solving the issue.  I'd probably just use mishap for Gate landing in the bubble (after scatter).  Or whatever way my opponent would prefer.  It's not really something to get too hung up about in game.

 

But that isn't the RAW.

 

GW need to fix this, and issue workable rules.

[Ishagu]

Gent is right, Gate occurs during the psychic phase so it's all a psychic power that is nullified within 12" of the Assassin.

 

The question is, what happens? Does the unit enter reserve? Does it dissappear? Is Gate simply cancelled?

[jeffersonian000]

Or GML is wrong, overthinking the rules, and over-applying the rules pass where one stops and the next begins. The first thing to determining how the rules apply is to understand that the rules work, that when a conflict occurs, a more specific permission overrides a less specific restriction (and vis versa). The moment you think the rules broke, you need to step back and rethink your assumptions.

 

In the case of Gate vs the Bubble, your assumption is that if a Gating unit scatters into the bubble, the rules break down because there is a conflict between completing the psychic power and ending the psychic power. My position is that there is no conflict. If we follow your assumption, we end up at a point where the rules don't work. If we then take a step back, reaffirm that the rules do work, and apply the conflict resolution, we see that scatter is a more specific permission than the Culexus' bubble's more general restriction. This tells us that we cannot place the Gating unit within the bubble (more specific restriction countering a very general permission), but if the unit scatters into the bubble, nothing overt happens (more specific permission countering a less specific restriction). No rules are broken, no rules had to be created, and the game goes on.

 

As I've stated, each power has to be considered separately.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

There is no specific > general.  I wish there was.

 

Jeff, you're using assumptions and RAI to solve an issue where the rules break.

 

GW isn't perfect.  Their rules aren't perfect.  You can't just hand wave everything away with the assumption the rules work.

 

They don't.

 

We can house rule to make them work in our games, which is obviously fine.

 

But this is just one instance in *many* that the rules fail to cover.

 

 

 

As I've stated, each power has to be considered separately.

 

And they *are*.  By following the entire instructions given in thier power descriptions.  Land via Deep Strike is part of that, which makes it part of the powers application and it *cannot* resolve, by RAW, until the unit has landed.

 

That's there in the black and white of the rulebook.

 

And the culexes *stops* them landing, by making the power cease *before* it can be resolved.

 

You cannot end step 5 of the Phsycic Phase rules.

[jeffersonian000]

As I've stated, my way breaks no rules, creates no rules, and is supported in the BRB. Your way gives up when you hit a dead end, calling the rules broken, and moving on to handwavium to get past the problem.

 

Recheck your assumptions.

 

SJ