Gentlemanloser Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Jeff, your way ignores the basic rules of the Psychic Phase. You can make anything work when you ignore base rules... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4002961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Jeff, your way ignores the basic rules of the Psychic Phase. You can make anything work when you ignore base rules... You are incorrect, sir. But that's okay, you can play it your way. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 English is not my first language but even I find it very questionable how something can cease (like in "turn off") if it isn't "on" at any given time. In my understanding something has to be ongoing to be ceased. If an effect is immediate how can it even cease? The aura per RAW turns off every ongoing psychic effect and makes it extremely hard to cast psychic powers at all but AT NO POINT in the rules does it say that it prevents powers from beeing cast. So if it wasn't clear already I firmly agree with jeff even though I think his argumentation wasn't ideal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Then you agree you can Smite a Culexes... You are incorrect, sir. Page 26. Reslving a Psychic Power. Please explain how you do that with Gate. And when Gate is 'Resolved' as per page 26. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 If you wanna talk RAW as you say would you please riddle me this: Why do they painstakingly avoid a wording that enable the Culexus to prevent the actual MANIFESTATION of any psychic powers within 12" and instead make the actual manifestation just very very hard? It's like they want to differentiate between powers that are "in effect" and powers that happen immediatly as the Culexus aura distinctivly says that it "ceases powers to be IN EFFECT".edit: I just looked it up and they even use the phrasing and they use the phrasing "whilst the power is in effect" in every single malediction and blessing power in the rulebook. Makes sense to phrase the Culexus Aura description accordingly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Aethernitas has the right of it. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 So you can Smite a unit in the Culexes Bubble. And Levitate right thorugh it. Obviously not RAI... Still, can you both please answer my question about resolving a Psychic Power. That keeps being skipped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 So you can Smite a unit in the Culexes Bubble. And Levitate right thorugh it. Obviously not RAI... Still, can you both please answer my question about resolving a Psychic Power. That keeps being skipped. Yes you can smite a unit in the Culexus bubble from outside the bubble or even manifested from inside the bubble (if u manage to roll a six). Levitate is tricky one. With gate you don't actually move so you don't move into 12" of the Culexus and it has no ongoing effect that can be ceased. Levitate has no ongoing effect either as it is resolved immediatly BUT and thats a big but you actually move the unit so I would argue that you can still make that move unimpeded but the ruling here is even less clear than on Gate. Again if it's so obviously not RAI (and who are you to judge that?) why did they bother writing rules that allow you to manifest powers inside the bubble at all and at the additional difficulty it provides? I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole discussion - only the last 2 pages. Can you point me to the specific question you are referring to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 And you can smite the Culexes himself as well, right? With gate you don't actually move Deep Strike counts as having moved in the movement Phase. why did they bother writing rules that allow you to manifest powers inside the bubble at all They didn't, you can't. I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole discussion - only the last 2 pages. Can you point me to the specific question you are referring to? Resolving a Psychic Power. Page 26. Section 5. A Psychic Power ends (is resolved) once all the instructions on it's power section/card are followed. This includes any shooting attack to be made, or any movement granted. Basically; 1: We're told a Psychic Power is resolved when all the instructions on its card are completed 2: For Gate, placing the unit using the Deep Strike mechanics are part of those instructions 3: Therefore Gate cannot be resolved (Section 5 / Page 26) until the unit has been placed and the Deep Strike rules have been completed 4: The power itself ceases immediately, before it can be resolved, if the unit comes within 12" of the Culexes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 And you can smite the Culexes himself as well, right? You can't as the Culexus rules specifically state that he can't be targeted or affected by any psychic power. PERIOD. Another point that makes question why they didn't just expand that ruling onto the whole bubble if thats what they intended. With gate you don't actually move Deep Strike counts as having moved in the movement Phase. Soif you don't wanna enter the grinding discussion about which part of Gate power counts as movement (I would argue it's the point where you arrive in which case you don't even move into 12" of the bubble) UI would refer you back to the difference between resolving a psychic power and it beeing "in effect". The former is only ever referred to in the 5 steps to manifest a psychic power. To manifest a power all five steps have to be completed so pointing to resolving a power alone does nothing for our argument. why did they bother writing rules that allow you to manifest powers inside the bubble at all They didn't, you can't. Sorry in advance for beeing snarky but please enlighten me why there is the rule that you can only harness warp charges ON A SIX if they don't want you to manifest any power inside the bubble? Seems counter intuitive to put it mildly. Resolving a Psychic Power. Page 26. Section 5. A Psychic Power ends (is resolved) once all the instructions on it's power section/card are followed. This includes any shooting attack to be made, or any movement granted. Basically; 1: We're told a Psychic Power is resolved when all the instructions on its card are completed 2: For Gate, placing the unit using the Deep Strike mechanics are part of those instructions 3: Therefore Gate cannot be resolved (Section 5 / Page 26) until the unit has been placed and the Deep Strike rules have been completed 4: The power itself ceases immediately, before it can be resolved, if the unit comes within 12" of the Culexes. Oh maye here we have the source for our rules-struggle. The power doesn't end when it's resolved. Resolving a power is the fifth step in manifesting it so to manifest it successfully all steps have to be completed. It's like it's own little rules-machine to produce functioning psychic power rules and everything that refers to powers that are "in effect" refer to successfully manifested ones that have an ongoing effect aber beeing "switched on" by manifesting them. If any rules wants to interact with a certain step in the manifesting process that rules has to specifically mention and refer to one or more of the manifestation steps. You can look it up by reading any of the equipment, special rules etc like the psychic hood which clearly refers to targetting and denying and clearifies exactly when it's rules take effect. The Culexus Aura does that too but it only rfers to the "taking the psychic test" or more specifically the "harnessing of warp charges". It modifies the latter from harnessing on 4+ to harnessing on 6+ and thats it. It does in no way, shape or form mention that it blocks the manifestation of psychic powers in general. Therefor when the effect of Gate resolves in the fifth step of manifesting a psychic power it does so without interacting with the Culexus bubble in any way other than having to harness Warp Charges on a six instead of fours if you cast it inside of the bubble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 You can't as the Culexus rules specifically state that he can't be targeted or affected by any psychic power. PERIOD. But he's not. The Psychic Power has finished. The Culexes is being targetted by a shooting attack. Sorry in advance for beeing snarky but please enlighten me why there is the rule that you can only harness warp charges ON A SIX if they don't want you to manifest any power inside the bubble? Seems counter intuitive to put it mildly. Apologies, forgot the only Blessing/Maledictions part. The power doesn't end when it's resolved. The point is it can't end *before* it's resolved. So Gate can't have been finished, thereis still active to be 'ceased' by the bubble. Edit: Just as my first line above is bunk. The Psychic Shooting Attack is still a Psychic Power effect. It's not 'just' a Shooting Attack. The movement of Levitation is a Psychic Power effect. It's not 'just' normal movement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Can we close the argument here? I feel we have both understood each others points and mostly don't agree but thats okay. It's not like 40K has the precise rulesset of chess and at points (like this) it becomes very obscure and leaves a lot of room for interpretation. In an actual game this would be the point where me or my opponent would throw a dice and on a 1 or 2 we do it his way and on a 3+ we do it my way. Just kidding - 4+ it is :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 :P I think the problem can be boiled down to a single question. Can a Psychic Power finish before it is resolved? If yes, then you can mostly ignore the Culexes Bubble. If no, then there's all sorts of issue with Gate, Hallucination, Levitation, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Well three pages later I'm pretty sure we're no longer talking about which Assassin to take Maybe next time we'll stay on topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305558-best-assassin-for-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-4003886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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