Outriders and their uses

[helterskelter]

So, in a recent Forgeworld adventure and random discussion about something else entirely, I found myseld pondering outriders.

At first glance a squad of bikes that come with scout, then i began to look at the options. The bikes can swap their twin linked bolters for either plasma guns or meltaguns, good options albeit a tad pricey, but twin linked on a platform that always allows full range (thinking of the plasma here), can't be bad.

Furthermore, one in three can be armed with something extra, i found myself looking at power weapons. A squad of 6 with a sarge and 2 more power weapons could be quite useful to escape a tricky situations.

And finally just to make sure meltabombs, in case that tin needs a bit more opening.

I haven't seen a list to feature them as yet, so i'd thought i'd put this one out for discussion.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The answer becomes obvious once you start to tally up all those options. They really aren't cost effective, can't score like bikes under an SM captain in 40k nor are really more durable than marines against AP 3 weapons of choice or Volkite weaponry.

 

They have to get up close and personal to benefir from plasma weaponry as well.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I disagree. Small squads of TL Plasma or Melta can scout 12", move 12" and shoot.

 

I did have the thought of mounting Graviton on with Iron Hands but upon checking, they are only Infantry only.

 

With Plasma Guns they are cheapish (135pts IIRC) and can zap terminators. At only 3 models in size, they are not exactly priority threats but deliver a hefty punch (6 dead elite non Terminators at 20-25pts each recoups their cost) and often takes up the firepower of much less flexible units to deal with; and of course, can Jink to be much more resilient.

 

Alpha Legion Infiltrating Scouting Outriders are powerful if you want to dedicate to them, Sons of Horus get to reroll 1's for reserve and can move quickly; if using Black Reaving (why are you?) you get Rage if you want to assault as well (sadly being bikes you don't count to getting the extra attack) but 2 power weapons (adding a Serge and 2x Power Weapons) gets you 8 Power Weapon attacks as well (or replaces the Ranged options for similar points), Night Lords have a 2+ or maybe 3+ Cover (depends if the legion cover save rule is infantry only), Word Bearers can actually Biker Mob very well if you combine them with Belakor (casts Shrouding which he is guaranteed to have for a 2+ Jink on them, or even Invisibility if you want, and can give an IC the Legoon Relic for -2 to saves bubble and spam Plasma or Melta to literally melt enemy terminator blobs first turn. Emperors Children also get Outflanking auto arrive bikes if you want with Maru Skara.

 

Other units can't really do what they do without costing a lot more points.

 

Sure they do the job better, but they, along with Legoon Dreads are perfect point filler units. If facong something like a 40k Ravenwing/Khorne Daemonkin army which abuses the Scout or Infiltrate rule theb these units can be nice cheap Scout move blockers Channeling them into one particilar are of the board.

[Memento Of Prospero]

A 3 man squad that you plan on scouting ahead will become an easy first blood priority. They will actually give something for tactical marines to shoot at for once in the early game, which is unheard of.

 

6 kills is a little optimistic out of 6 shots.

 

And once those plasma have rapid fired, you are in your opponent's small arms fire range.

 

Bikes are only useful if they can use their mobility to either deliver something in close combat, juke at optimum shooting range or get late game objective grabs. These guys can do none of the things that make 40k bike squads worth picking up.

[helterskelter]

How about the slightly more suicidal options going death guard or salamanders? You can mount flamers on the front i think (away from books atm) which could be a bit more fun souped up or with chem munitions

[Brofist]

They have their uses, but some legions definitely use Outriders better than others. I play using Iron Hand rules- T6 bikes with a scout, 12" move, and 24" range gives me resilient flexibility in some lists. My meta also allows me to give them grav guns, which actually makes them a reasonably costed AV unit.

 

The bottom line is that they get expensive when you put upgrades on them, but almost all those upgrades are shooty. Other units in our book do that better. That's why I feel Command Squad Outriders, and not just outriders, are the better way to go. Here's my thinking:

 

For 10 points over an outrider you get 2+, 2 attacks base, fearless bubble, and a higher weapon skill. Ontop of that each model inside the command squad is a character, can take wargear options, and with some legion rules gets extra perks ontop of that (T6 bikes, +2 attacks on the charge, etc). ~200 points gets you a fast killy melee unit. It's not so cheap it's an auto take, but it's good enough that you can squeeze it into most lists and get your points back. I'd rather take this over a terminator deathstar inside a spartan, for example, because I can carve through tactical blobs in a large threat area while spending the saved points on economically costed heavy support.

[Hesh Kadesh]

A 3 man squad that you plan on scouting ahead will become an easy first blood priority. They will actually give something for tactical marines to shoot at for once in the early game, which is unheard of.

6 kills is a little optimistic out of 6 shots.

And once those plasma have rapid fired, you are in your opponent's small arms fire range.

Bikes are only useful if they can use their mobility to either deliver something in close combat, juke at optimum shooting range or get late game objective grabs. These guys can do none of the things that make 40k bike squads worth picking up.

That is because you're trying to play them like SM Bikes, possibly. Tactical Marines have 24" range and can Fury for double shots anyway, while a 6" move and 12" Rapid Fire gives them the ability to hit your units anyway if they go second (and going second is king in shooty lists). Why are you wasting the units potential to kill elite units on Tacs? Stay away from the Tacs and you're good.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

A 3 man squad that you plan on scouting ahead will become an easy first blood priority. They will actually give something for tactical marines to shoot at for once in the early game, which is unheard of.

6 kills is a little optimistic out of 6 shots.

And once those plasma have rapid fired, you are in your opponent's small arms fire range.

Bikes are only useful if they can use their mobility to either deliver something in close combat, juke at optimum shooting range or get late game objective grabs. These guys can do none of the things that make 40k bike squads worth picking up.

That is because you're trying to play them like SM Bikes, possibly. Tactical Marines have 24" range and can Fury for double shots anyway, while a 6" move and 12" Rapid Fire gives them the ability to hit your units anyway if they go second (and going second is king in shooty lists). Why are you wasting the units potential to kill elite units on Tacs? Stay away from the Tacs and you're good.

 

 

I never said they would go after tacticals. I said tacticals would have something to do thanks to your bikes being so damn close to your line. Unless your gameplan is for your opponent to deploy his units issolated and unsupported, "staying away from tacticals" with a unit that needs to get in rapid fire range isn't a valid tactic.

[Komrk]

 

 

A 3 man squad that you plan on scouting ahead will become an easy first blood priority. They will actually give something for tactical marines to shoot at for once in the early game, which is unheard of.

6 kills is a little optimistic out of 6 shots.

And once those plasma have rapid fired, you are in your opponent's small arms fire range.

Bikes are only useful if they can use their mobility to either deliver something in close combat, juke at optimum shooting range or get late game objective grabs. These guys can do none of the things that make 40k bike squads worth picking up.

 

That is because you're trying to play them like SM Bikes, possibly. Tactical Marines have 24" range and can Fury for double shots anyway, while a 6" move and 12" Rapid Fire gives them the ability to hit your units anyway if they go second (and going second is king in shooty lists). Why are you wasting the units potential to kill elite units on Tacs? Stay away from the Tacs and you're good.

 

I never said they would go after tacticals. I said tacticals would have something to do thanks to your bikes being so damn close to your line. Unless your gameplan is for your opponent to deploy his units issolated and unsupported, "staying away from tacticals" with a unit that needs to get in rapid fire range isn't a valid tactic.

I think this is also a matter of how you play your army. I play relatively aggressively and bikes (while not my cup of tea) would be great to support the advance by taking out the tougher units early and draw fire away from the foot sloggers.

 

Also if you're in rapid fire range, it could be worth trying to assault if it's not a squad built for CC

[helterskelter]

If you took the three man harassment option, sticking a sarge with power weapon and a one in 3 power weapon in there wouldn't be too much extra with all the plasma. Having a 3 attack bike autocannon squad behind them in support might help too

[depthcharge12]

You'd need to use LoS blocking terrain for sure, and the bikes are definitely harder to play with as they can be squishy to a lot of the weapons that legion lists run.

 

I've found that 3 Jetbikes with 1 plasma cannon are pretty good at survivability due to their 2+, but idk how regular bikes fare. The unit starts to get expensive as you try to hold it up. While a bike command squad is awesome, you can't take any special weapons on their bikes.

 

If you are running a 3 man plasma squad with even any amount of power weapons, I'd still be hesitant to rushing them into cc unless the situation dictates because that means you may have a turn or two that you won't be able to shoot your plasma.

 

The best setup I envision would be:

 

Primus Medicae

+bike, AA, plasma pistol (I think you can gunslinger off of a bike no?)

 

3 bikes

+ plasma guns

 

Instead of using jink, the unit has FNP so it can keep firing without needing to snapshot. The PM tanks AP3 hits and passes off AP2 hits to his buddies, which they can try to use their FNP to negate. Anything more added to the unit might be a depreciating return on investment as the squad gets very expensive and turns into a bullet magnet.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

A 3 man squad that you plan on scouting ahead will become an easy first blood priority. They will actually give something for tactical marines to shoot at for once in the early game, which is unheard of.

6 kills is a little optimistic out of 6 shots.

And once those plasma have rapid fired, you are in your opponent's small arms fire range.

Bikes are only useful if they can use their mobility to either deliver something in close combat, juke at optimum shooting range or get late game objective grabs. These guys can do none of the things that make 40k bike squads worth picking up.

 

That is because you're trying to play them like SM Bikes, possibly. Tactical Marines have 24" range and can Fury for double shots anyway, while a 6" move and 12" Rapid Fire gives them the ability to hit your units anyway if they go second (and going second is king in shooty lists). Why are you wasting the units potential to kill elite units on Tacs? Stay away from the Tacs and you're good.

 

I never said they would go after tacticals. I said tacticals would have something to do thanks to your bikes being so damn close to your line. Unless your gameplan is for your opponent to deploy his units issolated and unsupported, "staying away from tacticals" with a unit that needs to get in rapid fire range isn't a valid tactic.

Tacticals always have something to do. Unless you do something really daft like getting within Rapid Fire range of them letting them get Fury of the Legion off, then they should always be able to do either move and rapid fire or fury of the legion anyway. If twcticals want to shoot at you, then usually, they are going to be able to shoot at you. But you've nixed maybe 4+ members of an enemy elite unit, wasted one or more tactical squads fire (20 shots, hitting on 3's wounding on 5s, maybe tanking on 2+ artificer armour if you want = 13 hits, 4 wounds, with at least 3 passed on average) and wasting upwards of 80pts of enemy elites they want to use to win the game and a further 150pts plus worth of shooting.

 

Then your opponent chooses to spend a further amount of resources on taking down a relatively tough, high damage, low cost unit.

 

Don't epxect it to be a game winner. Don't put a ton of resources into it. But watch your opponent get annoyed as you take away wounds from his valuable units.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

A 3 man squad that you plan on scouting ahead will become an easy first blood priority. They will actually give something for tactical marines to shoot at for once in the early game, which is unheard of.

6 kills is a little optimistic out of 6 shots.

And once those plasma have rapid fired, you are in your opponent's small arms fire range.

Bikes are only useful if they can use their mobility to either deliver something in close combat, juke at optimum shooting range or get late game objective grabs. These guys can do none of the things that make 40k bike squads worth picking up.

 

That is because you're trying to play them like SM Bikes, possibly. Tactical Marines have 24" range and can Fury for double shots anyway, while a 6" move and 12" Rapid Fire gives them the ability to hit your units anyway if they go second (and going second is king in shooty lists). Why are you wasting the units potential to kill elite units on Tacs? Stay away from the Tacs and you're good.

I never said they would go after tacticals. I said tacticals would have something to do thanks to your bikes being so damn close to your line. Unless your gameplan is for your opponent to deploy his units issolated and unsupported, "staying away from tacticals" with a unit that needs to get in rapid fire range isn't a valid tactic.

Tacticals always have something to do. Unless you do something really daft like getting within Rapid Fire range of them letting them get Fury of the Legion off, then they should always be able to do either move and rapid fire or fury of the legion anyway. If twcticals want to shoot at you, then usually, they are going to be able to shoot at you. But you've nixed maybe 4+ members of an enemy elite unit, wasted one or more tactical squads fire (20 shots, hitting on 3's wounding on 5s, maybe tanking on 2+ artificer armour if you want = 13 hits, 4 wounds, with at least 3 passed on average) and wasting upwards of 80pts of enemy elites they want to use to win the game and a further 150pts plus worth of shooting.

 

Then your opponent chooses to spend a further amount of resources on taking down a relatively tough, high damage, low cost unit.

 

Don't epxect it to be a game winner. Don't put a ton of resources into it. But watch your opponent get annoyed as you take away wounds from his valuable units.

That's some good strategery right there mmh hmm.

[helterskelter]

Being able to deal with AV 12 from a 24 inch distance is always a nice cheeky bonus, I say deal, not super effective, but it's better than not being able too!

[defl0]

It's really hard to justify them over regular jet bikes. It's a shame they don't have a deepstrike homer option or something interesting. As it is, they are way overshadowed by the jet bikes. That said, their is a certain level of value in the push back from melta bikes. 12" scout plus 12" move and 6" melta range makes it a no go zone for vehicles at the top of your opponents deployment zone. 

 

I think they also have value it you use something like a bastian where you can reliably hide them and use them as a counter assault unit. 

 

But over all, the assault weapon upgrades are just toooo expensive. I would run them as melta bombs and bolters. Maybe an axe. Small foot print and can handle 5 man squads in hth or tanks. 

 

The other interesting idea is as an escort for a scouting landraider. Turn the raider side ways and you can get the bikes LOS blocked. 

 

Overall, though they are just cost prohibitive. Especially now that jetbikes are 2+

[Hesh Kadesh]

135pts for 6 TL Plasma Shots is hard to justify over 9 Heavy Bolter shots?

 

Right. Okay then.

[Tychii]

Umm last I checked the 3 plasma guns would bring this squad up to 165 ? which isn't terrible, but not exactly strong

[helterskelter]

I think its more survivability aswell, obviously the heavy bolters arent gonna do as much against armoured targets apart from force more saves. However the 2+ and heightened reach does make them more survivable than the bikers. Though if you throw enough dice at anything it'll still die.

Add the plasma onto the jetbikes that increases cost, but you can add a power weapon to the bikes and they will cost near enough the same.

I think bikes can come off more as an instant threat, as having scout they can position themselves into a good position more quickly with their more lethal firepower. And by more lethal i mean being more able to put out shots likely to kill. 3 standard heavy bolter shots on the jetbike/ 1-2 rerollable plasma shots on the bikes.

(hope i'm not just chatting balderdash here)

[Sanct]

170 for 4 jetbikes with heavy bolters

 

165 for 3 outriders with twin-linked plasmaguns

 

180 for 4 attack bikes with autocannons and twin-linked boltguns or 165 for 3 with multimeltas, boltguns and meltabombs

 

 

In a vacuum I know which i'd like at that point.

 

The main strength of outriders looks to be mass special weapons and some power weapons.  They don't really have the skills to make use of the power weapons but lots of fast moving specials is good when you got some reserve manipulations going on.  Plus they can get real close in a hurry. 

 

Charge of the Penis Brigaders Jetbikes are cool due to their ignore terrain and 2+ but they barely have any weapon upgrades and do you really need heavy bolters over say....plasma or melta?  They bounce over terrain so the have a good chance of peek-a-booing their way to a meltabomb delivery. 

 

I like attack bikes (obviously, based on the top example - i just hate the models) They have flexible loadouts, throw an alright number of dice and have a decent number of wounds but they are not very good if they hit melee so they aren't too hot at accompanying a character.

 

 

Then you gotta think about the points level you're playing at. 

[depthcharge12]

Might it be better to take two outrider squads?

 

One equipped with plasma/melta and the other a three man squad with two power weapons and melta bombs?

 

That way you have two first turn threatening units (though a bit pricy). The plasma can hurt any scary 2+ units while the cc bikes charge turn 2 and lay the hate down on tactical blobs or backfield shooty tanks.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Depends what you want it for. Are you making a purpose out of the Outriders? If so, currently, most legions don't get major benefits from them or do what it required thanks to the godawful 6th edition ruleset 30k is based on. With 7th edition when they become scoring and aren't as penalized by allies rules, but as they stand, you are looking at;

 

Melee

SoH; Rage with RoW, Merciless Fighters (as written, only SoH infantry count for outnumbering, but Bikers get bonus attack)

WE; rage, furious charge if can force a fall back, hatred with row

DG; Rad Grenades and Move Through Cover with RoW (yes; some of the best bikers are DG, go figure, even if it is their lone FA choice)

Night Lords; count as 3 models when attacking infantry for +1 to wound (just checked doesn't look like jink works with from the shadows, but can get Night Fighting.

WB get PE iC's with RoW making good assassins.

RG; Furious Charge and Axes plus rad Nade forge lord equals early IC/Warlord assassinations

 

Shooting

SoH; small reserves boost

EC; auto arrive reserves

Salamanders; S5 TL Flamers (better than S6 heavy flamer attack bikes), move through cover

IH; T6~ vs shooting (note that unlike Bulbafists meta, grav is infantry only with RoW)

WB; Relic helps Plasma annihilate tough infantry, can ally with Belakor, IC attached rerolls 1's to wound to further help melt enemy blobs

AL for infiltrate and scout deployment.

 

No benefits

Other than suicide meltabombers thanks to wrecker, IW get no benefits atall. Maybe Perty for 1st turn outflank, while Imp Fists get BS5 TL bolters, but who takes Outriders for Bolters?

 

As you can see so far, there aren't many calls for legion tactics specifically requiring bikers to do any jobs. If you really want to focus, then their cost means bigger the better, and SoH, NL and WB get the most benefit from larger squads (Belakor casts shrouding, SoH and NL if you read it as how it is likely intended gets you 30 counts as models for +1 attwck or +1 to wound).

[defl0]

135pts for 6 TL Plasma Shots is hard to justify over 9 Heavy Bolter shots?

 

Right. Okay then.

 

Yeah actually it is. If you are doing a true comparison of 4 Jetbikes with heavy bolters (170 pts) vs 3 plasma outriders (165 pts). As a skirmish unit, the 4 heavy bolters is better over the length of the game. 

 

12 HB shots, 8 hits, 5.3 wounds = 1.76 kills

3 TL PG shots, 5.34 hits, 4.43 wound = 2.21 kills if they are in cover. 

 

With 36" range and 2+ save you are outside of 24" which is really a big deal in 30k. Especially for skirmishers. The outriders are likely dead the next turn or at least largely diminished. The jet bikes are alive unless hvy weapons are turned toward them.

 

Sure you can stick the 3 bikes in someones grill for the 6 shots, but i hope you don't expect to live more than that turn. I've been running whitescars in 40k for awhile, long range and resilince is your friend when it comes to bikes. 

[defl0]

BTW - Nice synopsis Hesh.

 

DG bikers are actually really quite interesting. Rad grenades, axes and move through cover is a pretty sick load out.