Formation Detachments: The New Black

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's more that you have utterly missed mine.

I love Unbound. I'd play with or against it all day, every day, no matter what my opponent brings.

It's a core rule just as much as BS4 hits on a 3+ is. And I don't tamper with the core rules just because I don't like them.

People claim Unbound is still 'optional'. That's the mistake. That's the fallacy.

If everyone refuses to use it, it's not 'optional'. It simply no longer exists, because no one uses it.

It's also as optional as any core rule is. Like removing a unit from the board when they lose their last wound. Core rule but hey, I don't like that, so I'm going to ignore it.

No, GML, as everyone has told you from day 1, Unbound is a format. Which means like Apocalypse or Maelstrom, it can and is largely ignored by the tourney scene.

Sure, you can play it, but good luck finding anyone else who will do the same. By comparison, everyone else is playing Battleforged, or as this thread is discussing, Formations: The Game: The Movie: The Animated Series.

GW aren't that good mate.

It's was more like;

No ones buying the batleboxes? Why??? Must sell more!!

Er, they seem to dislike the Unbound way of making armies

But that was our method of selling everything to everyone!!!

Hmmm, must force this on them bit by bit. So we can sell the most OP units to all players, regardless of thier Faction! And still keep all the fluff bunnies happy by letting them make any old cross over army they want! Genestealer cult Go!!!

Nah that convo happened way back, when they made Formations able to be taken regardless of what your primary faction was. Ergo, attaching 'Le Free Buffs Good Tau Stuff' formation to say Ultramarines, or even Tyranids.

The current shilling is for Formations: Force Org Is For Chumps Edition. Which is why I'm getting in early, and wanting to discuss what we GK players would like our flavour of retard to be. I'll be clear, I don't like this. Force Org, and a lot of the less stupid detachment types, force meaningful choices and hand out reasonable buffs. But as soon as you turn the whole army into Formations, you throw all that out the window. So, seeing as GW is going down this path, we might as well make the best of it. Because I sure as hell am NOT tolerating another abomination like our Brotherhood Formation.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, GML, as everyone has told you from day 1, Unbound is a format. Which means like Apocalypse or Maelstrom, it can and is largely ignored by the tourney scene.

 

Not just the Tournament Scene, by everyone else by extension.

 

And no, there's no separating it from any other core rule RD.  It's a 40k core rule.  One of the ways *allowed* to compose your army.  Much like deployment, the rules to wound, etc.

 

All core rulebook rules.

 

All that's happened is a group / majority of the playerbase don't like this core rule, and by extension this aversion is reaching out wider.

 

It's becoming a general 'houserule'.

 

One GW disagree with.

 

Sure, you can play it, but good luck finding anyone else who will do the same. By comparison, everyone else is playing Battleforged, or as this thread is discussing, Formations: The Game: The Movie: The Animated Series.

 

My point entirely...

 

Unbound *is not an option*.  You cannot rock up with an Unbound army list, *as no one will play you*.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not just the Tournament Scene, by everyone else by extension.

 

And no, there's no separating it from any other core rule RD.  It's a 40k core rule.  One of the ways *allowed* to compose your army.  Much like deployment, the rules to wound, etc.

 

All core rulebook rules.

 

All that's happened is a group / majority of the playerbase don't like this core rule, and by extension this aversion is reaching out wider.

 

It's becoming a general 'houserule'.

 

One GW disagree with.

 

I'm not claiming its not in the rulebook, or that its not a legitimate format to play in. What I'm saying is, literally no one cares about it or wants to use it. Ergo, it might as well not exist. 

 

What is harder to ignore is codex updates creating Formation armies. That's gonna be impossible to ignore, as in most cases its the viable way to play the army and better than Force Org detachments. Especially when every codex will get it. Hence, my suggestion we start preparing now for the change coming down the line for us and others. 

My point entirely...

 

Unbound *is not an option*.  You cannot rock up with an Unbound army list, *as no one will play you*.

 

So why are we disagreeing lol? That's what I'm saying. It's an option no one uses, because it's retarded, and we already have Apoc for 'throw my collection on the table, roll dice, pray to RNG'. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I wasn't really disagreeing with you RD. ;)

 

Mainly the folk that are saying that "Unbound is an option, use it if you like it".

 

It's not really an option though, is it.

[Emicus]

 

 

It is an option because it exists, whenever you set up a game with a friend to play unbound or not is up to you, that it exists doesn't hurt anyone in any shape or form, unless you think it ate up a lot of GW brain-time that could be better spent dreaming up something else... I haven't played it myself, yet, I also haven't played apocalypse, or maelstrom of war, or any of the special books like Battle Missions: Death Worlds or Shield of Baal: Exterminatus. I haven't even seen anyone play any of these things, does that mean they do not exist? Saying if you rock up with an unbound list nobody will play you is like saying "Oh I brought my apocalypse list today, everything I got, oh you've just brought a 1500 point ultramarines list, well that's a bummer I guess apocalypse isn't an option and fell of the face of the earth today".

​I'm not advocating for unbound or maelstrom or anything. Just the premise that they don't exist, aren't used and are useless is.. hmm. What do you think you'd get instead?

I guess you could argue it's just apocalypse lite and I'd see your point.. that it's silly and dumb and unbalanced and who'd ever go unbound vs CAD (objective secured, wohoo!) is setting themselves up for an impossible time, sure. That creative minds could come up with something better than "you put stuff on the table and it costs points lol", agreed. People, as a rule, aren't very imaginative and have a hard time thinking of new things, but reading it in a book makes it official​, quite unlike Timmys attempt at rewriting every character in his army with 10 across the board to "fit his fluff".

 

 

 

TL;DR: it exists, it's an option. Whenever that option is the same as poking your eye out with a screwdriver because you are bored, doesn't remove the fact that is an option.

I'd not like to argue this point any further.

​Oh and Darius as for Necrons not having any tax units, I agree. Balancing issue or intentional? There's tax is the C:KDK book, perhaps it's the way forward? Also, would you like there to be 8th edition around the corner, or stay with 7th edition rules and just work the codexes to a sensible level? I feel that with new core rules everything is up in the air again and we'd have to start over completely.

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh okay cool. Carry on then. 

 

Now, back to the topic at hand. Given the pattern we see elsewhere, the Formations are usually based around common combos or the lore. 

 

Command is pretty obvious, it'll be Grand Master, Librarians and Draigo. Probably also include Brotherhood Champions, Crowe and Tech-Marines here. 

 

Core would be NSF

 

What about Auxilaries? I'm thinking we need;

 

- Champions of Titan: Paladin formation, not sure what to give them though

- Purity of Faith: Purifier formation, probaby like our current Apoc formation where they can Hellstorm with 'Cleansing Flame' on say WC3. 

- March of Giants: Dreadknight formation, probably give them 3+ to cast their powers...anything else they really need? I guess they could keep Shred, as their current Apoc formation has

- Purgation of Sin: Purgator formation. Whilst stationary, all weapons gain Skyfire and Interceptor. All models in the formation gain Relentless. 

- Vanguard Assault: Interceptor formation. All models gain Hit and Run and Scout

[Everon]

Champions of titan- gain ability to cast sanctuary or free nemesis weapon upgrades?

 

I'd like to see something to make dreadnoughts actually worth their cost. Maybe x dreads can have a sanctuary bubble or the primary becomes a venerable librarian?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Champions of titan- gain ability to cast sanctuary or free nemesis weapon upgrades?

 

Gaining 'Sanctuary' would go a long way to making them decent. I dunno, maybe Eternal Warrior? Representing their unbreakable will in union, forcing their flesh beyond mortal constraints. Kinda like a weaker version of what the Brotherhood Champion's armour does to him when he dies (ie insta-rez for a single vengeful blow as he falls). 

 

I'd like to see something to make dreadnoughts actually worth their cost. Maybe x dreads can have a sanctuary bubble or the primary becomes a venerable librarian? 

 

 

Yeah that's not a bad idea. Maybe;

 

Ancient Hunters: Librarian Dreadnought, exchange powerfist for nemesis hammer, gains Mastery 2, 'Force' and 'Sanctuary'. 1-5 Dreadnoughts. All models in formation gain a 5+ invulnerable save. When the Librarian Dreadnought casts 'Sanctuary' on himself, it affects all models in the formation as if they were a single unit. 

[Emicus]

What about something similar to the Skitarii dunecrawler, where you could give dreadnoughts sanctuary and it would stack from multiple casts on the unit.

 

5 dreads, 5 casts, 5 successes, 2++.

[Everon]

I would say only on their individual selves. 5 dreads with 2++ is gonna ROFL stomp through almost anything thrown at it with ease

[BetterOffShred]

I would say only on their individual selves. 5 dreads with 2++ is gonna ROFL stomp through almost anything thrown at it with ease

Agreed, that would be a super-broken hate-magnet. 

 

I do think some of the proposed formations have merit though.  I like the idea of having some dreadnaught formations including NDK formations as well.  The way the current book is laid out you basically are forced to take two or three core options that overshadow nearly every other option.  It would sure be nice to see Paladins useful as intended and for purgators to acutally be worth shooting with.

 

Even something as mild as a +WS bonus for purgators could be interesting, but I definitely like the idea of them being relentless.  Skyfire of course would be super handy as there's not really anywhere to get it other than the bird.

 

-Brett

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What about something similar to the Skitarii dunecrawler, where you could give dreadnoughts sanctuary and it would stack from multiple casts on the unit.

 

5 dreads, 5 casts, 5 successes, 2++.

 

No that will never happen. Also, it's OP as hell. People already moan about Knight-Titans, and they're AV12 4+ invul with 6HP. 

Even something as mild as a +WS bonus for purgators could be interesting, but I definitely like the idea of them being relentless.  Skyfire of course would be super handy as there's not really anywhere to get it other than the bird.

 

Why +1WS? They're not an assault unit, they're our fire support. We desperately need Skyfire (and to a lesser extent Interceptor) in our list. The balancing factor would be Purgators are still easy to kill and relatively expensive. But that and Relentless would mean you could threaten things properly. 

[Emicus]

Just a thought. Nobody likes dreadnoughts at the moment because they are expensive and accomplish nothing but die. What if the shield is only for range attacks? Or work similar to the Necron one where they run say av14 until it is penetrated? What do you reckon would be enough for us to want to take not just 1 dreadnought but multiple of them? 'cause I don't believe a 5++ that you need to cast for is going to be enough of a reward for running 3 dreadnoughts (as an example).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just a thought. Nobody likes dreadnoughts at the moment because they are expensive and accomplish nothing but die. What if the shield is only for range attacks? Or work similar to the Necron one where they run say av14 until it is penetrated? What do you reckon would be enough for us to want to take not just 1 dreadnought but multiple of them? 'cause I don't believe a 5++ that you need to cast for is going to be enough of a reward for running 3 dreadnoughts (as an example).

 

No read it again. Its a 5+ invul to all models in the formation. When you cast 'Sanctuary' from the Libby-Dread, you get +1 to all their invul saves, as if they were a single unit. So, everyone goes to a 4+ invul. 

 

Necrons have their hax shields, and making things only work at range just makes them that worse at melee. 'Sanctuary' doesn't have those restrictions, no reason to suddenly put them in. It's still not that powerful, they just die half as fast (shrug). 

[Emicus]

Ah I misread that, thanks for the clarification. But still, 5++/castable to 4++, is that enough to make dreadnoughts viable? If the costs stay the same that'll probably clock in at 400 points (+25 points for psyker?) for 3 x dreadnoughts with no trimmings: 3 fists, 1 force weapon, 2 multi meltas and 3 bolters.

I was thinking the shield purely as a range support, autocannons til the cows come home.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Ah I misread that, thanks for the clarification. But still, 5++/castable to 4++, is that enough to make dreadnoughts viable? If the costs stay the same that'll probably clock in at 400 points (+25 points for psyker?) for 3 x dreadnoughts with no trimmings: 3 fists, 1 force weapon, 2 multi meltas and 3 bolters.

I was thinking the shield purely as a range support, autocannons til the cows come home.

 

Yes. Half the firepower that would normally strip their HP off just goes to waste (on average). That means probably an extra turn of useage out of them, maybe 2 if you can draw fire with other things (like DK's or Terminators). 

 

Well, the idea is that the buff applies to shooting and melee, so if you wish you can make it an assault formation, not just a shooty one.