Who is to say we are Redeemed?

[HsojVvad]

I am rereading the Dark Angel codex so I can find some fluff for my Unforgiven Chapter for the competition we are having. I was reading and came apon on that the first Chapter Master said the Dark Angels are Unforgiven until all the Fallen are captured and repent.

 

So let's say this happens. Who is to say we are Forgiven now? After all, if the High Lords of Terra and anyone else in the Imperium found out, the Dark Angels would still become outcasts and labeled Traitor. So who will say that the Dark Angels are no long traitor or use to be traitor? I guess the Emperor if he ever comes back could do this, but who else?

 

Are the Unforgiven damned for all eternity even when they become The Forgiven?

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm thinking that, once all the Fallen are apprehended and forced to repent, it would be hard to call the Dark Angels "traitors".  After all, that's a pretty serious act of devotion to the Emperor - any other chapter would have simply let those renegades escape... and some others did just that.

 

And honestly, I don't think the scorn of the Inquisition or the High Lords would matter to the Dark Angels - they would continue to heed their own counsel and do things their own way.  The only person's opinion that matters is the Emperor - and since there are a couple of individuals deep within the Rock with the Emperor's knowledge, it's clear that the only opinion that matters to the Dark Angels is from the one being who knows the score.

 

Or, maybe the entire Imperium would turn against them... and then, on cue, the Lion awakes.  Bet that changes everyone's opinions real quickly.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I always felt the whole "Unforgiven" think was a self-judgement thing. Maybe concealing the Fallen was purely pragmatic back in M31, but 10,000 years later it's mostly about how they judge themselves.

[Father Mehman]

I'm asking this out of curiosity because I know so little about the Dark Angels: what's the problem?

 

So some marines (half or something like that) went Traitor and that's why the whole chapter has a complex? Is it because y'all's Primarch is asleep in the depths of The Rock? Is it something else?

 

I really want to like the Dark Angels but it just doesn't make sense why they need to keep these things secret when most people wouldn't care- hell, they'd be happy! Another Primarch? Alright ! You need help killing some traitors? Yeah, let's team up together! Instead, y'all blow up ships just because someone might know...well they might know something.

 

Help me out here !

[Guest]

It is a secret shame, in a time where half the Legions turned traitor the Dark Angels had a civil war, it was not something that would be looked upon favourably.

 

So they did the next best thing spent 10k years hunting the Traitors down while keeping it all secret. If certain Inquisitors knew they might consider it leverage to use the Unforgiven for their own advantage.

 

There is also the outside chance that the Unforgiven are the ones that turned Traitor and the Loyalist are the ones they hunt down but that is Heresy

 

And where you see complex I see shame.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Brother Arkley

[Grand Master Belial]

One of the big issues is that we have the general overall scope of the Heresy but we really have no context of what it would have been like to look through it. We have to look to World War II or the recent ISIS/ISIL videos of the horrors that the minions of Chaos would wreak on a civilization that it was once sworn to protect. Now you have the Dark Angels fighting a war to purge those great evils only to find out that their brothers at home have joined the side of Chaos. The Dark Angels would have seen the horrors of Chaos first hand and the knowledge that their own blood brothers would do the same would be a huge stain on their honor. The simple fact that their Primarch's blood within their veins is not enough to protect them from the predations of Chaos would scare the bejesus out of them and make them go to extreme measures to not only purge themselves but to stamp out those who let the darkness take hold. 

 

One bad apple every once in a while can be written off, but nearly half a legion? That brings it to a whole other perspective. 

 

To me, this story is probably what drew me in so strongly. In many ways, it mimics a spiritual journey and purification by the removal of sins. It takes will power and devotion on a higher level to overcome the dangers of corruption. The use of secrets and compartmentalization of the truth helps the brothers absorb the truth in smaller and more manageable doses.

 

Back to the topic at hand, once all of the Fallen are reclaimed. The Dark Angels would no longer need to go off mission and would therefore stay on the task at hand, but they would still be ever mindful of their ability to fall and would continue to be zealous in their desire to remain pure to the Emperor and the Lion. Some of the secrets would no longer be told and the shock to a marine would no longer be severe when they joined the Deathwing. Both the First and Second Companies may lose some of their vigor without their special assignments and may devolve into a standard Codex formation since few would know of their ability to capture someone and the skills lost to time and history. With fewer secrets to withhold, the chapter may open up a little more to others in the Imperium (as long as they are not Abhuman). 

[Bryan Blaire]

Mehman, couple things to remember:

1) None of the Dark Angels except about 150 or so of them even know about the Fallen (Inner Circle, entire 1st Company, 10-15 Black Knights in the 2nd Company, the Captains of each Company and maybe a few veterans that have accompanied them back to the ranks from the Deathwing). That number replicates in pretty much the same portion across all Unforgiven chapters.

 

2) The number of Loyalist people outside the Unforgiven that know of the Fallen number likely in the low teens, and apparently all of them keep the secret for their own reasons. There are others that suspect something is "off", like the High Lords, but none of them actually know all the facts as if they were members of the Inner Circle.

 

3) The Dark Angels Legion lost their Primarch in the Battle of Caliban, where they saw their homeworld, adopted or not, destroyed by a Chaos storm unleashed by their own brothers and the man seen almost as the Lion's adoptive father-brother, his second in command, etc. Consider how crazy the Iron Hands went when they lost Ferrus and how much it changed them, and apply that coupled with this fact, and it's easy to see why the Dark Angels that did know exactly what was going on might have gone a little nuts and made some 10K year lasting poor decisions.

 

4) No one can really accurately predict what might have happened if the events at Caliban were made known, especially in light of the fact that the Dark Angels Legion wasn't present at the Siege of Terra.

 

5) No one but the Emperor knows that the Lion is actually in the Rock.

 

6) Maintaining a covert war requires things to get messy, but people forget that the number of times the Dark Angels have actually abandoned the battle field is small considering the number of times they have fought engagements. It isn't like they would be universally reviled or distrusted across the galaxy for it, most likely never even would have heard the stories. They probably have bigger problems from those events the Fallen take part in, because it's unlikely that they can actually perform full damage control behind a Fallen's actions, and since the Fallen still look a lot like Dark Angels, there is probably bad press from each one of those encounters as a Chaos-tainted DA kills civilians, etc., and some of those knowing the stories flee off world only to have people come back later to find out folks have been mind-wiped or worse by the real DA coming to the planet. That's probably the most unsettling stuff.

 

As far as the original topic: I think only the Unforgiven could declare themselves absolved, and honestly at this point, they will always bare the marks of having to fight their covert war. Their actions taken to keep it covered up are as damaging, if not moreso, than the actual Fallen themselves.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Bryan Blaire

[Father Mehman]

Thank you all for answering my question and not throwing heavy objects at me! That's a lot of good information and also angles I hadn't considered.

 

Thanks again!

[Canadian_F_H]

The emperor knows all... In theory.

 

The lion is supposed to return to them in the end, supposedly he could be the forgiver.

[SvenONE]

Well I think it's all meant to be confusing as a device to get us to buy into the chapter.

 

Let's not forget that the roots of the Grey Knights feature Space Marines who came from traitor legions.  There's even a Dark Angel former Grand Master, canon conflicting though it may be, who seemed to be allowed to stick around.

 

Sadly, I'm not sure that GW will ever advance our storyline because that would mean changing the whole draw the chapter has going for them.  Now as entirely part speculation on my part, with the Lion being just "sleeping" now.  It would be REALLY cool if our next codex saw him wake up, become our Lord of War, and advance the plotline towards redemption.  Which again, we've got a track record of fighting Chaos and opposers of the Imperium for 10,000 years now.  I think if we were truly traitors as your run of the mill LGS mouth breather says we are, we kinda would have unveiled the master plan by now.

[Augustus]

I thought we Dark Angels agreed to completely ignore that book which we shall not name...?

[GhostLegion]

I thought we Dark Angels agreed to completely ignore that book which we shall not name...?

Some of the dark angels bretheren may have, others may still believe astelan may yet say something useful...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

THis has been said inumerous times: Astelan's words have been proven false in the HH books. So 99% of the DA don't listen to their words, but there is always a stubborn 1%. ;)

[HsojVvad]

Stubborn. LOL. Pun intended? :P

[Spazmonkey]

It is a secret shame, in a time where half the Legions turned traitor the Dark Angels had a civil war, it was not something that would be looked upon favourably.

 

So they did the next best thing spent 10k years hunting the Traitors down while keeping it all secret. If certain Inquisitors knew they might consider it leverage to use the Unforgiven for their own advantage.

 

There is also the outside chance that the Unforgiven are the ones that turned Traitor and the Loyalist are the ones they hunt down but that is Heresy

 

And where you see complex I see shame.

 

 

Is this possible? is there any fluff to back this up?

i have heard others say they believe the council are the traitors, and that the Dark Angels are not aware they are being lead by tratiors, and the Fallen in fact are the marines who are aware of the betrayal and escaped in time.

Objectively Is there anything to this, or is it just Hearsay and conspiracy theory? 

[Stoic Raptor]

I think Sven addressed that already:

 

 

 

we've got a track record of fighting Chaos and opposers of the Imperium for 10,000 years now.  I think if we were truly traitors as your run of the mill LGS mouth breather says we are, we kinda would have unveiled the master plan by now.

[GhostLegion]

You know, if not careful with our comments and retorts, this discussion could devolve into an argument of canon and perception in wh40k. As odd a place for said discussion as da fluff can be, due to contridicting material over time, perhaps the da background illustrates how....flexible...the "all is canon" concept is?

 

....or maybe im thinking too much again....

 

Perhaps one of the more amusing things from the dark angels fluff is how readilly fan (read internet forum/personal opinions not based on published material) ends up shaping so many opinions. This is often where the idea that the loyalist da are actually the traitors comes from. Nevermind the heresy that the lion didnt go to the defense of terra because he thought horus was right...

[Brother Tyler]

To me, the concept of the Unforgiven is one of tragic paranoia.

At the time it was developed, the Dark Angels Legion was the only loyalist legion to have any significant portion of its membership turn traitor. Things were a little more black and white - a legion turned traitor or remained loyal in its entirety. The Dark Angels were the only exception. With the recent development of the Horus Heresy in both the fiction and the Forge World campaign, however, we've seen this changed to where every legion had both its loyalists and its traitors, with the legions' overall loyalty based upon that of its Primarch. In this, the Dark Angels were probably the only loyalist legion to have such a large percentage of its membership turn.

The nature of the (dis)loyalty of Luther's followers, too, is complex. Some may have turned from the Imperium to Chaos, but the lore is clear that others were merely duped and later regretted their act. In this, the Fallen may be viewed as a microcosm that mirrors the other disloyal legions.

After the destruction of Caliban and the scattering of the Fallen, whether or not the remaining loyal Dark Angels would have been condemned by the Imperium is unknown. More importantly, the consequences of the theorized condemnation are unknown. It's conceivable that the Imperium may have seen the perfidy of the Fallen as indicative that the legion as a whole was traitorous and not to be allowed to exist further, precipitating attack by loyalist forces. Alternately, it is conceivable that the remaining loyal Dark Angels may have been subjected to some scrutiny and, if seen to be beyond taint, allowed to live (perhaps with a penitent crusade or similar ordeal of cleansing). The Dark Angels chose to believe in the most dangerous outcome and reacted accordingly.

The irony of the tale of the Unforgiven is that their self-appointed quest has led them on a path that may be more corrupt than the alternatives. In their efforts to prove their loyalty, they are willing to turn their backs on other loyalist forces. If darker rumors are true, the Unforgiven are even willing to attack their so-called allies to protect their secret. In this, the Unforgiven are exemplary of the very grimdark notion that "the ends justify the means."

Ultimately, the path the Dark Angels chose is probably one that can never be fulfilled. The Fallen were scattered through time and space. The Dark Angels must kill or capture all of the Fallen in order to reach their goals, but it's highly likely that some number of the Fallen can never be recovered, having died beyond the reach of the Unforgiven. In a galaxy where war is the only constant, some segment of the Fallen have already died (whether through natural or unnatural means). The convolutions of record-keeping preclude the Unforgiven from even knowing the true fate of some of their quarry - whether through damnation as a daemon spawn, obscure death on a backwater world, or even redemption through demonstrated loyalty as a mysterious Black Shield within the Deathwatch (or any other number of alternatives). The Hunt for the Fallen is a Sisyphean task.

If the impossible were to happen, however, and the Unforgiven were to kill, capture, or document the death of every member of the Fallen, their redemption would be self-imposed, just as their current damned status is self-imposed.

In my mind, the only true redemption for the Unforgiven would be one of self-forgiveness and reformation. The Hunt for the Fallen being a never-ending (and never-to-be-fulfilled) quest, the Unforgiven would have to abandon the secrecy and treachery of their current path (while continuing to hunt for the Fallen). Instead of hiding their ancient mistake, they'd have to admit it openly and prove their loyalty through their service to the Imperium. This will never, happen, however, as it is beyond the mindset of the Unforgiven. They are obsessed with their current quest, no matter how irrational that fear and its resulting actions have become.

And this is the true tragedy of the Unforgiven in my opinion (and why they are such an interesting topic).

[Phoebus]

At the time it was developed, the Dark Angels Legion was the only loyalist legion to have any significant portion of its membership turn traitor. Things were a little more black and white - a legion turned traitor or remained loyal in its entirety. The Dark Angels were the only exception. With the recent development of the Horus Heresy in both the fiction and the Forge World campaign, however, we've seen this changed to where every legion had both its loyalists and its traitors, with the legions' overall loyalty based upon that of its Primarch. In this, the Dark Angels were probably the only loyalist legion to have such a large percentage of its membership turn.

 

Well... I don't know about that.  As things stand, Luther's camp seems to be about a fifth of the size of the Dark Angels Legion.  Fallen Angels indicated he had more than 20,000 but less than 30,000 recent inductees.  "By the Lion's Command" also has Corswain thinking Luther has 20,000 recruits waiting.  Galaxy in Flames indicated that roughly a third of the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters were ordered killed by Horus:

 

 

“For reasons Tarvitz could not even begin to guess at, the Warmaster had chosen to betray fully a third of his warriors, exterminating them in one fell swoop.”

 

Excerpt From: Ben Counter. “Galaxy in Flames.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/ldnZy.l

The Forge World books reinforce this, though with more specific numbers.

 

What makes the Dark Angels "special" in the latest iterations of the setting, I think, is that their rebellion didn't come to light until after the Heresy... and that their traitors managed to kill their own Primarch.  Even under the Emperor's guidance, the Imperium was a place that could erase entire Legions from the record for admittedly "tragic" situations.  Following the Horus Heresy, the Imperium was undergoing a murderously paranoid period.  The Dark Angels were probably correct in hiding the truth, but have fallen far from grace in the ten millennia since.

 

I always felt the whole "Unforgiven" think was a self-judgement thing. Maybe concealing the Fallen was purely pragmatic back in M31, but 10,000 years later it's mostly about how they judge themselves.

 

Spot on.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Phoebus

[Brother Tyler]

The time I was talking about was 1st/2nd edition when the concept of the Unforgiven and the Fallen was created. You've merely cited information that supports my points about subsequent developments adjusting the original lore.

 

And the Dark Angels traitors, the Fallen, didn't kill their own Primarch. Lion El'Jonson is deep within the Rock (assuming the 2nd edition lore hasn't been retracted, which none of the more recent lore has explicitly done except by omission).

[Bryan Blaire]

If I'm not mistaken, the most recent Codex does actually talk about the Lion in the Rock.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

And the Dark Angels traitors, the Fallen, didn't kill their own Primarch. Lion El'Jonson is deep within the Rock (assuming the 2nd edition lore hasn't been retracted, which none of the more recent lore has explicitly done except by omission).

 

Just because he's slumbering deep within the Rock doesn't mean they didn't kill him.  That's unlikely to stop a Primarch. ;)

[Phoebus]

Brother Tyler,

 

Where the former point is concerned, I agree in principle... but I was responding specifically to your statement re: the Dark Angels probably being the only loyalists with such a large percentage of traitors.  I just don't think we have a full picture of that yet.  I'm not necessarily trying to argue that every loyalist Legion had a sizable percentage of traitors (perhaps not even approaching Luther's turncoats or the loyalists that Horus sacrificed on Isstvan III), but coming in the heels of the White Scars example, didn't Conquest refer to a Great Company of the Vlka Fenryka going traitor?  I'll have to double check that tomorrow morning, but that would be a significant percentage of rogues.

 

Where the latter point is concerned, I did a very poor job of conveying that this is what the Dark Angels themselves believe... and made it sound like the Lion being killed was a fact.  Color me embarrassed!  

[Stoic Raptor]

I haven't read Conquest, but the company in question is probably the 13th.  They didn't go traitor, they chased the traitors into the Eye of Terror.  From the perspective of an outsider, it is easy to see why they might think of it that way, though.  It's all about perspective.  Millennia later, the 13th reappear and the motivation becomes much more clear.

[GreyCrow]

I think that it's in the Dark Angels nature to keep secrets even before the Fall of Caliban. In Unremembered Empire

 

Spoiler Alert

Lion El'Jonson had secretly prepared a full Drop Pod assault force ready to storm Ultramar if he suspected Roboute Guilliman of going rogue. Something the latter discovered to his dismay.

 

End spoilers

 

So, the First Legion is really : Mind your own business, we'll do things our way. They tend to sweep under the rug things that they aren't proud of because it would cause some explaining to do which they don't want to be bothered with. Over time, this became a very obssessive trait for them.

 

______

 

As to the topic at hand, they are the typical example of a questing knights band with no end to their quest. Deep down I don't think they want to be Forgiven because it gives them purpose, purpose they lost since they "lost" their Primarch after the Fall of Caliban.

Edited April 8, 2015 by GreyCrow