Who is to say we are Redeemed?

[Dizzyeye01]

If I'm correct, it's the 13th company of the Space Wolves. However they didn't go rogue, they were chasing the primarch of the Thousand Sons with Leman Russ because of the vows they made. In a way you could say they're hunting a threat to protect the Imperium. Ah viewpoints.

[Phoebus]

I am not thinking of the infamous Thirteenth Great Company. Per Conquest, page 19:

 

 

It has long been refuted since, but it indelibly the case, that in the Legions that remained loyal there were elements, sometimes whole companies and commands, that did not. ...

... Likewise also should be considered the long-denied evidence of a Great Company of the Space Wolves Legion bearing the symbol of the Serpent's Eye slaughtering millions at Neo Cadiz in 008.M31, ...

 

Again, I'm not arguing that every loyal Legion had the same proportion of traitors as the Dark Angels... but there are at least two cases from the other eight loyalists where that appears to have been the case.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Phoebus

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Thank goodness for HH series. Now everyone has skeletons in the closet. :D

[Augustus]

I was referring to Pandorax not Angels of Darkness.

[HsojVvad]

Thank goodness for HH series. Now everyone has skeletons in the closet.

 

Please explain. I haven't read the HH series. I tried, just can't get into it.

[Guest]

I think the good Chaplain means so far each Legion seems to have something ie A portion of White Scars declaring for the Warmaster.

 

I could be totally wrong thou :)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

Thank goodness for HH series. Now everyone has skeletons in the closet.

 

Please explain. I haven't read the HH series. I tried, just can't get into it.

 

Nothing much, really. You get the gist ofit if you read this thread. Basically almost every Loyalist Legion had traitors and valmost all traitor Legions had Loyalists. So no one can throw at us lest they want them to ricochet back...

[Guest]

Out of the Loyalist thou I think we had the biggest % to turn traitor but atm that is speculation...

 

I am really interested if any of the Ultramarines did.... But I have a horrible feeling that none will :( and it will give the haters a reason to hate on them more.

[Arkangilos]

Out of the Loyalist thou I think we had the biggest % to turn traitor but atm that is speculation...

 

I am really interested if any of the Ultramarines did.... But I have a horrible feeling that none will and it will give the haters a reason to hate on them more.

They weren't given a chance to have traitors :p

 

I think there will be a few Legions without traitors (all because they weren't given that option, honestly). BA, Ultras, Sallies, etc. 

 

I mean think about it, none of the DA that followed the Lion turned their backs (to my knowledge, am I wrong, though?), only the ones that were far away and given the opportunity to idly sit by and sulk at their misfortunes. In fact, the ones that were with the Lion probably never even considered it.

 

The Scars have traitors because they weren't attacked by the traitors right off the bat, so the traitors could appeal to them.

[depthcharge12]

I'd find it funny if the Lion woke up.

 

Just like in UE, he'd head over to Macragge and slap Guilliman into action :P threatening wounds or not!

[GhostLegion]

Sometimes i wonder if the inner circle and the knowledge of the fallen...nevermind the survival of luther...are examples of cross universe quotations and truths. Why is it that every time i start reading discussions like this one, im drawn back to star wars and hear some crusty old chaplain lecturing a chapter/company master saying: "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"....

 

Somehow, with the layers on layers of secrets and knowledge within dark angels history, this particular quote seems highly...appropriate..

 

 

Or again, maybe im just some crazy old wizard...

 

 

Ed. hmm. Now im laughing that over the years, this is post 666 for me. How bizzare.

Edited April 8, 2015 by GhostLegion

[Phoebus]

Where percentages are concerned, we really don't have firm numbers for the Dark Angels during the Horus Heresy.  Gav Thorpe offered his estimate a couple of years ago.  That estimate, amended by Horus Heresy III: Extermination, would put the Dark Angels Legion's manpower at more than 120,000 battle-brothers, but probably less than 150,000.  My thought process is outlined in this post.  "By the Lion's Command" has Corswain stating that Luther has 20,000 new Dark Angels at Caliban.  Fallen Angels has Zahariel describe how they can expect 4-5,000 new recruits every training cycle (24 months).  Either way, it doesn't look as if the Lutherite rebels were even 20% the size of the Legion already in the field.

 

I have no idea how many warriors each Great Company of the Vlka Fenryka counts within its ranks.  Either way, the number is kind of irrelevant:  I'm almost certain it's not as great as the number Luther could call on by the time the Lion returned to Caliban.

 

There is something that is more important than numbers, though, and that is the context of the betrayal we're discussing.  How many of Luther's recruits had ever met the Lion, much less than the Emperor, when they swore to take up arms against their primarch and the Imperium?  Not one.  Every single one of them was born under the stewardship of Luther, the undisputed hero of Caliban.  By contrast, the only instance of a warrior fighting under the Lion rebelling against his primarch is Nemiel... and the Chaplain was not rebelling against the Emperor.  By contrast, the Lodge brethren that rose to take control of the V Legion fleet in the of Horus had fought under the Khan throughout the Great Crusade.  The VI Legion Great Company bearing the Serpent's Eye had likewise been fighting in the name of the Imperium before they betrayed it.  They knew what they were abandoning, and for whom - even if they didn't necessarily know the important specifics (Chaos, etc.).

 

Bottom line, one can no longer argue that the Dark Angels are unique in having traitors within their ranks during the Horus Heresy.  At best, one can argue along the lines at quantity, but even then they have to ignore the context of the rebellions in question.  Twenty thousand Calibanites being duped by Luther (and that notion is specifically cited in Pandorax when the Dark Angels differentiate between the Fallen - who can be redeemed - and outright traitors like Corpulax) is ultimately not a worse crime than a fraction of that number of Space Wolves knowingly turning their back on Russ and the Emperor.  The tragedy of the Dark Angels is to be found in the timing of their division, in my humble opinion, not in the numbers involved.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Phoebus

[Arkangilos]

^ Actually, I agree, but I also think this:

 

Quite aside from the realism of it and the scope for interesting background (I'm having some fun at the moment with thinking up some Traitor Raven Guard, and I think all the loyalists aside from the Ultras and Imperial Fists could have more or less plausible traitors) I actually think the fact that the majority of Legions suffered some form of split makes the Dark Angels backstory more distinct and tragic, not less.

Why? Because it stresses the their pride and their brooding, secretive nature; while other Legions accepted the trauma and moved on, the Dark Angels are incapable of doing so and instead obsess about it long after everyone else has forgotten about their transgression. They've trapped themselves in their own prison of guilt and shame when they didn't need to, and that seems to fit the Legion perfectly. Seems to me that there's the potential for almost as many Traitor White Scars floating around the Eye as members of the Fallen, but ask a Stormseer about it and I bet he'd shrug and say that not all are worthy of the Path of Heaven, or something similarly relaxed.

 

 

And this:

 

 

 

 

Also the fact that by the time they returned from the game of chase they were playing with the Night Lords there were whispers that they had just been hiding and waiting to see who won the heresy. If you came back and everyone already was suspicious of your loyalty, would you really want to reveal that half your legion turned traitor?

 

 

 

 

 

+Edited because I agree, not disagree like I thought+

Edited April 9, 2015 by Arkangilos

[depthcharge12]

The odd thing is is that we really don't have a good finger to put down when it comes to how many "Fallen" there are. It could be upwards of 20,000, but that would assume that Luther and his renegades weren't hit that bad in the battle for Caliban.

 

As for their secretive nature, I feel they the Dark Angels themselves are becoming even distant from themselves. Case in point: Star Phantoms and Astral claws. Two post heresy chapters that claim ties to the Dark Angels (with convincing arguement as for why) are disenfranchised by their parent chapter - only the ones that the DA can keep on a short leash (Angels of etc.) are trusted by the chapter.

 

 

*warning: shameless plug :P*

 

Over on the HH forum I am doing the possible primogenitors to the Astral Claws chapter, who, at one time in the legion, held a prestigious standing, but fell out of favor with the Lion due to an incident of losing some second legion ships (Athrawes Lightning Bearers to be precise).

 

I just love the secretive and self flagellating nature of the Dark Angels and their obsessiveness to their task to be done in solitude.

[CaptainStabby]

I think my favorite part of the whole Fallen/Traitor etc... angle is events that happen later in the 40k timeline. Liiiike the Badb War.

 

Lamenter Chapter Master: "Well, you see we sort of kind of chose the wrong side in a civil war against The Imperium. It's ok now though because we went on a 100 year penitent crusade and got it all sorted out with the Inquisition."
Dark Angel Grand Master: "Wait, you can do that!?!?"

 

Hilarity ensues.

[Knurd]

The previous codexes made it seem like the Lion has not really chosen a side in the HH. I always felt like the Fallen might know something. Maybe the higher echelons of the Inner Circle are privy to knowing that the Fallen have information would shine light on the fact they weren't 100% loyal to the Emperor during the Heresy, something that would he unforgiveable. History is written by the victory after all.

 

Maybe the HH DA hunted the Fallen for different reasons than the current one's do.

[MontyBob]

Theories about when the Dark Angels are 'forgiven':

 

1 - When Cypher presents the Lion Sword (once broken) to the Emperor on the Golden Throne.

'Hello Captain General, I'm a 10,000 year old Dark Angel here on a quest of redemption and I'd like to present this sword to the feet of the Emperor'.  Doesn't sound likely to happen.

2 - When they capture, extract the confession and kill all the Fallen

The Sisyphean nature of this has been noted.

3 - When Lion El'Jonson wakes up and forgives Luther

The Lion punched someone's head off for disobedience in a combat situation.  He was fully prepared to smash Guilliman for just the appearance of secession from the Imperium.  Forgiveness?  From Jonson?  Good luck.

 

The Dark Angels have survived for 10,000 years with a combination of survivors guilt and some real deep seated anger about the Fallen.  When the Fallen are no more the damage will have been done.  The Chapter structure (Inner Circle etc) is a legacy of Caliban.  I don't see that changing if the Fallen are no more.  10,000 years of living in shame - that will do things to people and Space Marine chapters aren't exactly progressive institutions.  The only thing that 'll change is less going off mission. 

 

Oh - and less screaming in the darker places of the Rock.......

[Bryan Blaire]

The previous codexes made it seem like the Lion has not really chosen a side in the HH. I always felt like the Fallen might know something. Maybe the higher echelons of the Inner Circle are privy to knowing that the Fallen have information would shine light on the fact they weren't 100% loyal to the Emperor during the Heresy, something that would he unforgiveable. History is written by the victory after all.

Maybe the HH DA hunted the Fallen for different reasons than the current one's do.

I would think the Lion's statement about the Imperium that "Loyalty is its own reward" would have done plenty on this front.

[Phoebus]

The previous codexes made it seem like the Lion has not really chosen a side in the HH. I always felt like the Fallen might know something. Maybe the higher echelons of the Inner Circle are privy to knowing that the Fallen have information would shine light on the fact they weren't 100% loyal to the Emperor during the Heresy, something that would he unforgiveable. History is written by the victory after all.

 

Maybe the HH DA hunted the Fallen for different reasons than the current one's do.

Obviously everyone has the right to their own vision of the Warhammer 40k setting.

 

That having been said, no Dark Angels Codex has even hinted at the idea that the Lion had "not really chosen a side" during the Heresy.  That idea was first introduced in Angels of Darkness, via the inconsistent, unreliable testimony of a Fallen.  Subsequent stories set in the Horus Heresy, including ones written by the same author, indicated that the Fallen in question, Astelan, was not truthful: he renounced his loyalty to the Emperor in Fallen Angels, not just against the Lion.  Furthermore, the idea that the Lion may himself have been a traitor never played a factor in that decision.  By contrast, the Lion's loyalty has yet to waver in the Horus Heresy series.