Deamonkin codex relic question

[Sn4k30r]

Hi guys i wanna ask abouth the Korlath relic it says when the model reaches 0wounds or dies, a Bloodthirster is summoned. So if he dies in the opponents turn and is summoned (Deep strike rule) in my turn is free to act? charge? or he needs a full game turn? 

 

 

[Targetlock]

he is summoned in the turn that the bearer is killed and is summoned before the model is removed so yeah i guess he would be able to act in your turn.

 

Anyone else want to clarify this?

[UlsanGamer]

Summoning is treated as deep strike and deep striking flying monstrous creatures arrive as swooping. Therefore in your next movement phase he will first need to change to gliding mode and then have to wait another turn until he can assault.

 

Ironically this is clearer than a bloodthirster summoned by the blood tithe.

[Khornestar]

It won't be clear how it's supposed to work until it's spelled out via FAQ. Obviously people on both sides of the fence feel like their interpretation is crystal clear, but either could be correct in the end.

[Scribe]

Yeah this has gone on and on and I'm not paid to divine the meaning of GW's terrible rules.

 

To me, they come in via Deep Strike which is from Reserve, which is Swooping, so then you jump, then you jump -> assault.

 

Its terrible, but there it is.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I would argue the model comes in swooping or gliding, and that's how I plan on playing it. But we need an FAQ to get a true answer.

[Hellrender]

He comes in swooping. In your turn you can switch to glide. Then the turn after you can assault.

The blood tithe summon is the same as when the axe transforms in your own turn, and for that there are various opinions. The two strongest arguments i have seen are:

1) Summon bloodthirster. Comes in swooping. Next turn he switches. Then the turn after he can assault. They say this is so because when summoned one doesnt have a movement phase and thus no chance to switch in the turn you summoned.

2) The one i cheer for: you summon at the beginning of a turn, after which comes a movement phase in which you declare to switch flightmode (but you cant actually move, just declare flightmodes). The next turn you can assault.

 

3) Bloodthirster is summoned and placed by deep strike, but does not come from reserves (as is the case with the RaI's of 1 and 2). This means he does not start as Swooping, but rather chooses which flight mode he is in when placed. This means you can place him during your opponents turn as Gliding, and then assault in your own turn (see below for rules quotes).

 

Either way, ask you game group how to play it until a faq comes out.

 

 

 

Arguments for option 1:

''If a flying monstrous creature arrives via deep strike reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode.'' (pg 68, FMC)

''Conjured units arrive via deep strike'' (pg 26, conjuring)

'' the new unit counts as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.'' (pg 26, conjuring)

 

Explanation: This RaI evolves around Deep Strike Reserve. 

 

Counter: KDK daemons are not specified as deep striking from Deep Strike Reserve, nor specified as conjured (need a fact check here!). As such, they could arrive gliding. 

 

Arguments for option 2: 

''Conjured units arrive via deep strike'' (pg 26, conjuring)

'' the new unit counts as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.'' (pg 26, conjuring)

''At the start of its move, a FMC must declare wether it is swooping or gliding until the start of its next turn. If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.'' (pg 68 FMC).

 

Explanation: This RaI evolves around the turn sequence. This RaI says that the Blood Tithe daemons get changed at the beginning of the turn, and thus have a movement phase in which they switch flight modes. 

Counter: There have been no rule quotes to counter this.

 

Arguments for option 3:

''In that turn's Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge.'' (pg 162, deep strike)

'' Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless specified as a 'game turn'.'' (pg 17, turns)

 

Explanation: This RaI is the direct counter to option 1. You do not arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, and as such can choose in which flight mode your FMC enters play. 

 

Counter: There is no rule about Deep Strike Reserve, just that any and all units arriving from Deep Strike also counts as coming from Reserves for all rules purposes. 

''In order for a unit to be able to deep strike, all models in the unit must have the deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve''. (pg 162, Deep Strike)

''When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike (sometimes called deep strike reserve).'' (pg 162, Deep Strike)

 

 

This is an argument that will go on forever, until silenced by a FAQ from GW. Again, choose the one you deem most likely, and agree upon that RaI with your game group.

 

Edit: Added in option 3 for completion sake.

Edit: Actually had to open my rulebook and see how everything is worded. i sadly do not have the KDK codex yet, and thus can't check the wording there.  All quotes are from the small version of the BRB.

[Kol Saresk]

I haven't exactly seen a whole lot of the first argument. So far a lot of what I have seen is people arguing the second argument at each other and then someone explaining the first as a perspective I guess? Not sure. But the consensus agrees on the second one which would make sense on the warning in the White Dwarf that you have to be careful where you put your Bloodthirster because it could die that turn.

 

I guess GW's idea of "bursting forth" is him shooting into the sky and then coming down rather than Alien coming out of your chest.

[The Unseen]

I would say that the 2nd option makes more "sense" from a gameplay perspective, as that means your looking at a thrister that will probably never see combat. If it takes 3 turns to get a charge off, it isn't going to live, and even if it does, its not going to accomplish anything. It still can't charge the turn its summoned, gets shot at with full BS, and then gets to move and assault. Seems fair to me.

[minionboy]

Actually, I find both those sides to be incorrect. Most around here agree that it does not come in swooping at all because it's not entering play from Deep Strike Reserves (which is what causes Swooping). Just like using a Veil of Darkness or jumping out of a Stormraven with Skies of Blood, there are many Deep Strike abilities where you are not coming from Reserve, this is just another one of them. The only argument I seem to find to the contrary is insisting a sentence where they are describing a unit coming from reserves is saying that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing, which is not the case as described above (and in a multitude of places that GW consistently uses the verbiage differently).

[Hellrender]

It's the first time i make a case/overview of RaI, so i'm sorry if its a bit messy, but i have edited my first post  with rule quotes. I personally find RaI 2 the most logical option, but as i said there, there is no way this is going to be settled unless FAQ'd by GW. 

[Sn4k30r]

And here we are again.... that i think is stupid too to change flights cause i dont think he will survive so long.... d3 wounds on the end plus the shooting he can take from the enemy in his turn when he is summoned, plus the next turn after changing the flight mode(gliding) so he is free to play after 2-3 turns of shooting plus d3 wounds on the end of your turn :S ..... hm...Not even a chance of surving like this.... i think...