GreyCrow Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Greetings fellow Princes and Spawns ! So, I saw that there was another thread about Gift of Mutation but it was very old and derailed to a competitive analysis of the Chaos Codex vs other armies in 6th edition and I really didn't want to revive that old flame. Some knowledge is too destructive to be unearthed :p That said I'd love if we could discuss the Gift of Mutation under 7th edition rules ! I'm not making a competitive Chaos list, heck I'm actually seriously considering a Tzeench based army which is probably the most random of them all (and actually, after playing against Sisters of Battle for a few times, a 6+ invulnerable save is very nasty, is it worth 2 points a model though ? I don't know). I'm really interested in hearing what usually happens when you take gifts of mutation ! It's probably one of the more exciting stuff in my opinion for this codex, because you can obviously roll really bad stuff or have really awesome stuff. A few Chaos Lords said that it was relatively useless on kitted out HQs or units with a specific mark and I would definitely agree with that. However, on regular Aspiring Champions, it might make a good difference because of all the bonuses it could give which are all good. I mean Shrouded applies to the entire unit for example. I haven't played with army Gift of Mutation yet, but I'm really looking forward to trying them out :D in the meantime, how did they work for you ? Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I find gift of mutation fun and characterful, i usally try and give it to at least one of my characters if i have the points spare and maybe a unit champion or two. i did manage to roll the D3 rolls on the table once for my nurgle lord (got fleet, +1 toughness! and +1 Attack) which was great. I miss it in my deamonkin force :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I've used gift of mutation in several games on lords, sorcerers, terminator champs and CSM champs. In my opinion it is most useful on the Lord, as there are less dud results. The Sorcerer has a few more dud results, like fleshbane and instant death, which are not as useful to a force weapon wielder. The aspiring champions are much more of a gamble as to weather you get the points worth, so much so that I've dropped them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I'm really interested in hearing what usually happens when you take gifts of mutation ! you waste points something a point inefficient army can't do, making it even more possible to be out meleed/guned/etc and in return you get buffs you won't use most of the time. It could be useful on multi attack HQs, if there were fewer bad rolls[there aren't] and we had points left over[which chaos armies normaly don't]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I don't tend to use it as I inevitably get 1s on my first roll. (Considering how useless many of the results are, I wish these were replaced.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 In my experience it mostly doesn't work out the way you intent but when it works..oh boy there are some sweet combos in there. Sometimes I have the pts to give my Possessed/Warp Talon champion 2 gifts and sure it's a gamble on an already underpowered unit but you gotta forge the narrative somehow, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I usually don't spend points on it, as my AoBF Juggerlord splatters at least one enemy character per game. It is usually something useless like +1 BS or Zealot, but once in a while it's something good. Or nothing. I roll lots of 1's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Only time I got a really important roll was when I got +1 str on my juggeraxelord. I was fighting old-crons and needed to crack that shielding. (On an interesting note, I ended up wiping him losing only a single unit in a berzerker footslogging rush. And that unit was only because he got so excited he spawned after killing a character.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hah! Good ol' spawn result. Happened to my Khârn once after he wiped a unit of Death Company and a Chaplain on his own. Thanks, Khorne! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Here is my analysis when I add gift of mutation to my Khorne marked Terminator Lord equipped with the Axe of Blind Glory and combi melta. There are 11 results that are worth the 10 points or more. Some of these are worth much more like reroll armor saves and eternal warrior. Here's my list: Eternal Warrior, + 1 init /wound / T, reroll armor saves, hatred, ID, fleet, FNP, and multiple boon. There are 12 results that are not normally worth the points, but not complete wastes and situationally may be worthwhile. These are: +1 attack / WS / BS, shrouded, fleshbane, witcheater, poisoned attacks, HOW, icy aura, adamantine will, gun morph, shred Then there are 9 complete duds that provide no benefit. These are the 6 unworthy offerings, +1 armor save, crusader, and stubborn. In conclusion gift on my Terminator AOBG Lord has a 34% chance of being great, 38% of being mediocre or poor, and 28% chance of being worthless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4000877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Two games ago my Possessed Champ got Instant Death and Fleshbane. I was going up against Nids. To summarize, that was worth the points. ;) My biker lord has gotten Shrouding twice, which turns bikers from good to pretty insane. My Dark Apostle got +1 T in a game which turned out to be what gave me victory. A few games ago Khârn rolled instant death after killing a Hive Tyrant. He was unstoppable! (Though not a bought gift but anyway). On the other hand I had a long streak were I only got unworthy offerings like 5-6 games in a row. I guess it depends, if the environment you are in is so hardcore competitive that you can't really afford to waste to waste some points, then you should probably not take Gifts. I only take them on my HQs and Possessed Champ, so we are talking about 10-40 pts in total spread over the army. Not counting the Possessed (since they are not competitive to begin with), it's 10-20 pts. In that case they stand a good chance of contributing more to the battle than what 2-5 cultists or a single marine extra would have done, but if you give them to regular champs you will probably lose more than you gain, since there are more dud results when applied to a single one-wound model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 if you go for gifts go maybe for 1hq or 2 MAX....other than that are waste even the 2nd gift is waste.... but there are times which gift happens to be amazing i remember my Nurgle Terminator Lord, rolled Chaos boon i took the extra d3 , and roll the eternal warrior, feel no pain, and instant death! but still there are so bad rolls like stubborn,adamantium deny etc..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Thanks for the feedback guys :) So I guess it's very much gambling taking the gift of mutation early game, it really sounds very fun I'll take a few spread out in the army for the first times I'll play it and see where it leads from there. My local clubs are relatively competitive but they want to have fun first and foremost and I think such an army could be random and fun :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 At tournaments it literally has won me games and the worst it has done for me is cost me 10pts for nothing. Just saying, it has that potential to really swing a game in your favor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternus Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 One thing I've looked at, one of the irritating combinations you could get has to be +1 armor save, and re-roll able armor save on a Terminator armored champ. I mean yes, rerollable 1+ armor save sounds nice, but it means the rerollable is completely wasted :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 One thing I've looked at, one of the irritating combinations you could get has to be +1 armor save, and re-roll able armor save on a Terminator armored champ. I mean yes, rerollable 1+ armor save sounds nice, but it means the rerollable is completely wasted :/ The reroll wouldn't be wasted, as 1s always fail. However the 1+ might help against plasma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternus Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 One thing I've looked at, one of the irritating combinations you could get has to be +1 armor save, and re-roll able armor save on a Terminator armored champ. I mean yes, rerollable 1+ armor save sounds nice, but it means the rerollable is completely wasted :/ The reroll wouldn't be wasted, as 1s always fail. However the 1+ might help against plasma. Oh, forgot about that rule :/ well. It certainly could be good for intimidation if the enemy was lacking good power weapons or heavy/D weapons (im looking at you, imperial knight -_-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 One thing I've looked at, one of the irritating combinations you could get has to be +1 armor save, and re-roll able armor save on a Terminator armored champ. I mean yes, rerollable 1+ armor save sounds nice, but it means the rerollable is completely wasted :/ The reroll wouldn't be wasted, as 1s always fail. However the 1+ might help against plasma. Dang, I thought you couldn't get a 1+ armor save at all, that would be helpful, my terminators tend to die from plasma or grav about half the time and the other half just volume of fire from double tapping bolters. Thanks for the tip. I did get stubborn once on an Aspiring Champ and it was well worth it, keeping his badly damaged squad from running. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 One thing I've looked at, one of the irritating combinations you could get has to be +1 armor save, and re-roll able armor save on a Terminator armored champ. I mean yes, rerollable 1+ armor save sounds nice, but it means the rerollable is completely wasted :/The reroll wouldn't be wasted, as 1s always fail. However the 1+ might help against plasma. Dang, I thought you couldn't get a 1+ armor save at all, that would be helpful, my terminators tend to die from plasma or grav about half the time and the other half just volume of fire from double tapping bolters. Thanks for the tip. I did get stubborn once on an Aspiring Champ and it was well worth it, keeping his badly damaged squad from running. I honestly don't know if 1+ saves are allowed, I can't remember if their is a restriction in the book, however, if they did exist, that is basically how they would function. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4001663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 I honestly don't know if 1+ saves are allowed, I can't remember if their is a restriction in the book, however, if they did exist, that is basically how they would function. I think this has changed since last edition. I kinda remember that you could have 1+ saves but that rolling 1s was always considered a failure. It made you immune to AP2 weapons though. However, the current rulebook says than no saves can be modified below 2+, so I guess that answers it :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4002093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I played against my brother the other day in his first 40k battle. Out of 5 codexes (IG,SM, BA, CSM, and Orks) he chose chaos. I tried making a list for him and I ended up having 15 points over so I have him a gift of mutation on his chaos lord. The Lord had a powerfist and lightning claw. In the mutation he rolled instans death so he rolled up with the lighting Claw and killed my librarian with a single hit from the claw. Was a fun game. Is it bad to give the mutation to a gimped up lord? Who would you give it to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4002344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I have to say that I never considered spending points on gift. The random stuff was always and still is the thing about Chaos I enjoy least. And ten points really is a lot. It's a combi-weapon, two dozer blades, two dirge-casters etc. Clear vote against this. Sure, sometimes it will give you something nice, but most of the time you will simply waste valuable points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4003885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I think if it was 3-5 points I would use it much more often. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4003965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 Hey guys ! So I've tried the Gift of Mutation in a few game and I'm quite disappointed about it like you guys said. I only ever got 1 result per game that was cool but not game changing (+1W on a Terminator Champion in one game, and Shrouded for an Apostle with the Cultists which was quite nice). Like Teetengee said, for 10 points, it's a bit overpriced in my humble opinion :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4032356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaanbull Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 It is most definitely a bit overpriced, due to the random effect you had the bad results with. I find that most of the time I do get bad mutations not fitting for the game, or bonuses that the model already carries through wargear or base special rules.. I can't help but include it on my aspiring Champs though! ;) must be the gambling gene taking control.. I love designating the two dice as tens and ones, rolling and then checking the chart. That's usually when the fun ends. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305723-gift-of-mutation/#findComment-4032410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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