Pure Ravenwing Vs Tau.

[eurieus]

Hey Brothers ! 

 

First i'm not sure if this thread goes in the list sub forum or this one, please move it if you think i made a mistake :) 

 

So i'm in need of advice ! In two days i'm facing my first ever Tau player playing my pure Ravenwing list. I have very little knowledge of the Tau except the fact that they can shoot my army of the table, that Riptides are nasty, overwatch can be painful, and they have markerlights ( still unsure about how they work and what they do.) 

 

First here is my list: 

 

Ravenwing Command squad X5 , RW grenade laucher , banner of fortitude

 

Ravenwing command squad X 5 , RW grenade launcher , Ravenwing Banner

 

Sammael on Jetbike

 

Int. Chaplain on bike, digital weapon, mace of Redemption.

 

Troops: 

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron X6 , 2X meltagun, Landspeeder w/Typhoon and MultiMelta.

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron X3 , 2X Meltagun 

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron X3 , 2X Meltagun 

 

Fast Attack: 

 

Darkshroud , Heavy Bolter 

 

Landspeeder w/Typhoon and Multimelta. 

 

So this is 1500 pts of bike goodness, and i had really good results with this list. 

 

Sammy is going with the RWCS sporting the BoF and the chappy is going with the other for some Hit & Run action. 

 

So, what is the best strategy for this kind of list ? I've never played the guy before so i don't know what he is going to bring, but i think i have enough melta/plasma to take care of any battlesuit/riptides/broadsides and armor he could bring. 

 

I was thinking heavy outflanking, trying to get the warlord trait helping with reserve, but it has failed me hard in the past so i tend to deploy everything on the board. 

 

I'm thinking of maybe taking an Attack bike or two to soak up the overwatch but i dont know .... 

 

So ? what are my more veteran brethren have to say about the Tau Xenos scum ? 

 

Brother Eurieus. 

[Grand Master Raziel]

Kind of depends on what your opponent plays - foots logging Fire Warriors, mech, suit heavy, Riptide spam? They all play differently.

 

My first thought was you could use a Whirlwind in case your opponent uses massed Fire Warriors. You could also use it to get rid of Pathfinders. Tau without marker lights are much less effective, and incendiary rockets murder Pathfinders.

 

Thought 2: put Sammael with A Ravenwing Attack Squadron instead of Black Knights. He confers Skilled Riders to the squad, whereas Black Knights already have it.

 

Thought 3: You really don't need an Interrogator Chaplain. Black Knights and Sammael will murder in close combat anything Tau can muster. A Librarian would serve you better. Roll on Telepathy. With a little luck you'll get Invisibility or Shrouding. If you're really lucky you'll get both, and you can really throw a kink in the Tau player's shooting phase.

 

Thought 4: You've got enough melta in your list to not need MM-Typhoons. You could give them heavy bolter and use them from standoff range.

[SvenONE]

Will probably get moved to Armylist section, but to give the thread a chance and keep it tactical, I'd strongly suggest you find as much cover as you possible can.  By that I really mean line of sight blocking cover.  I'll be honest and admit I've never really cracked a code for RW vs Tau, or even vs Tau in general as no one ever seems to think outside the box with that army and it's always riptides and marker drones.  The main reason I don't like RW against Tau is because of their ability to take away cover and your own army list of limited models.  

 

It's a hard fight no matter how you look at.

[eurieus]

Will probably get moved to Armylist section, but to give the thread a chance and keep it tactical, I'd strongly suggest you find as much cover as you possible can. By that I really mean line of sight blocking cover. I'll be honest and admit I've never really cracked a code for RW vs Tau, or even vs Tau in general as no one ever seems to think outside the box with that army and it's always riptides and marker drones. The main reason I don't like RW against Tau is because of their ability to take away cover and your own army list of limited models.

It's a hard fight no matter how you look at.

I did put the list i was going to use as an exemple really, that's why i was unsure of the location for this thread.

What do you think about outflanking ? Can it work ? I'm sur there is no way i can out dakka them, that is for sure, sor in my opinion the only thing i can do is to close the distance and hit hard and fast.

Kind of depends on what your opponent plays - foots logging Fire Warriors, mech, suit heavy, Riptide spam? They all play differently.

My first thought was you could use a Whirlwind in case your opponent uses massed Fire Warriors. You could also use it to get rid of Pathfinders. Tau without marker lights are much less effective, and incendiary rockets murder Pathfinders.

Thought 2: put Sammael with A Ravenwing Attack Squadron instead of Black Knights. He confers Skilled Riders to the squad, whereas Black Knights already have it.

Thought 3: You really don't need an Interrogator Chaplain. Black Knights and Sammael will murder in close combat anything Tau can muster. A Librarian would serve you better. Roll on Telepathy. With a little luck you'll get Invisibility or Shrouding. If you're really lucky you'll get both, and you can really throw a kink in the Tau player's shooting phase.

Thought 4: You've got enough melta in your list to not need MM-Typhoons. You could give them heavy bolter and use them from standoff range.

I dont own a WW unfortunatly, but maybe soon !!

I guess the Int Chaplain is a bit overkill against Tau, i'm just used to running him in most of my lists now. My libby is always dying to perils or bolter fires without casting much every games, but again i'm used to play VS nids so the Tau lack of psychic defense might work for him this time ....

I might give a shot at the HB speeder variant, but still keep the typhoon , i just really like that weapon

[Grand Master Raziel]

Outflanking is risky.  You'll be at the mercy of Reserve rolls and making it even easier for your opponent to pick you apart.

 

Important note - don't gloss over terrain placement.  Make sure you do it by the numbers, and place some nice big LOS-blocking terrain right in the middle of the table.  Tau players will want to have as little terrain as possible, which doesn't serve you at all.  The board is supposed to have enough terrain to cover 1/4th of it if you placed it all right next to each other.  Make sure it isn't skimped on, and make sure it's LOS-blocking, and not a loose scattering of trees.

[Interrogator Stobz]

If you don't take out all his markerlight capable units asap then you will get slain wholesale by all his AP3 weapons that will ignore any cover that you choose to pay for. Even then a 'balanced' Tau force will still have volleys of S5 shooting coming your way; I've found keeping your whole force together and wolf packing a flank keeps you alive long enough to do damage.

Good luck.

[SnakeChisler]

Against Tau your gonna get slaughtered in 2 turns if you don't nuke the marker lights

 

Its all in the deployment and who gets 1st turn, if your on hammer and anvil your best bet is to outflank, take your 2nd HQ as your warlord & role on strategic traits.

 

It really does depend on what he fields, the guy I play regularly uses Farsight / Buffmander split fire. 7 battlesuit / drone blob with everything twin linked no scatter & ignores cover other popular loadouts are the broadside missile spam or the fire warrior spam builds and let me tell you Tau do spam at a whole new level

[eurieus]

Outflanking is risky. You'll be at the mercy of Reserve rolls and making it even easier for your opponent to pick you apart.

Important note - don't gloss over terrain placement. Make sure you do it by the numbers, and place some nice big LOS-blocking terrain right in the middle of the table. Tau players will want to have as little terrain as possible, which doesn't serve you at all. The board is supposed to have enough terrain to cover 1/4th of it if you placed it all right next to each other. Make sure it isn't skimped on, and make sure it's LOS-blocking, and not a loose scattering of trees.

Each time i used outflanking, it turned bad for me, i just can't make those reserve rolls !

If you don't take out all his markerlight capable units asap then you will get slain wholesale by all his AP3 weapons that will ignore any cover that you choose to pay for. Even then a 'balanced' Tau force will still have volleys of S5 shooting coming your way; I've found keeping your whole force together and wolf packing a flank keeps you alive long enough to do damage.

Good luck.

That's what i was thinking of doing, trying to crus one of his flank fast and try to deliver a crippling blow in the first few turns. From what i see they seem to be a big counter to bike based army .... How do Deathwing do against them ? i wonder.

I've been looking at markerlights, basically it gives better BS and ignore cover ... That sucks for me

On the second HQ topic, like Grand Master Raziel pointed out, a Int Chaplain might be a bit overkill, how do librarians do against Tau ? And what load out ? I usually run him basic with ML2 and a PFG to protect my second Command Squad.

I might try to do a little battle report, could be interesting for all of us, be it a crushing victory for the First or a crushing defeat

[Grand Master Raziel]

If you get the roll, and if you've got sufficient terrain to shield the bulk of your force from the Tau alpha strike, it might be worth your while to let your opponent deploy first.  I know that gives him the first turn, but it's going to force him to spread out his deployment to cover every approach you might use. That'll let you deploy hard to one side and force at least some of your opponent's stuff out of the fight in the first turn or two.

 

I'm going to push the Librarian a little harder, and Telepathy in particular.  Telepathy has a lot of powers could come in really handy vs Tau.

 

Psychic Shriek: Good attack power, especially vs low leadership units.  Most Tau foot units are Ld 7, maybe Ld 8 if the player pays for the squad leader upgrade.  Psychic Shriek can pop a lot of their heads.

 

Dominate: Forces an opponent's unit to take a Leadership test for any action they want to perform.  Making them miss moving, shooting, or firing Overwatch can be key, and the more they have to take, the more likely they are to fail.

 

Mental Fortitude: The only power that's not going to do you any good.  Your stuff is going to regroup automatically anyway.

 

Terrify: It's worth it just to make a unit flee from a good firing position, but given how Tau play there's a very good chance a successful Terrify can make the unit just flee off the table.  Plus, they take all further Ld tests at a penalty till your next Psychic Phase, so this can be a good power to cast to prep a unit for the other Ld-based powers in the discipline.

 

Shrouding: One of the sexier possibilities.  Basically makes your Librarian act as a second Dark Shroud for your army.

 

Invisibility: Requires no explanation.  The power broken enough to make major tournaments nerf it, and even nerfed it's still really good.  Three words: Invisible Black Knights.

 

Hallucination: This power is going to require some careful targeting to make it worthwhile, and bear in mind it's got a random effect even if it does go off, so I wouldn't rely on it.  However, it has the potential to make a unit kill one of its own attached characters, so if you wind up facing a Fire Warrior squad with an attached Ethereal, by all means cast this power on it, because if you can make the Fire Warriors beat their own Ethereal to death, that'd be hysterical.

 

Also, bear Force in mind.  It's a generic power your Librarian automatically has.  Cast it if you are planning to make a charge, or are already in a close combat with the Libby.  Makes all his attacks have Instant Death.  Get him stuck in against a unit of multi-wound models (like, say Crisis Suits), and have him spread his attacks out.  Any unsaved wounds kill the whole model.

[SnakeChisler]

I normally take PYRO against Tau on Libby 1 then Divination on Libby 2 coz they can't handle Psykers and I need multiple PFG's as I run 2 command squads but we normally play 1850+

 

Pyro is a solid choice with a basic heavy Flamer as Primaris and some other blast ignores cover options the Beam is tasty as well 18" ap2 melta S8 will gun a line of battlesuits no problem and the Nova power is pretty sweet given your gonna drive headlong into him on the basis that if you nonce around the edges you'll get wasted.

 

To get around the multiple overwatch send in a sacrifice squad of bikes as multi assault then multi assault the Ravenwing Knights + HQ's on as much stuff in 1 go as you possibly can. Assaulting Fire warriors your not getting a charge bonus anyways as they have defensive grenades also don't get hung up on assaulting a Riptide they generally can't hit squat in combat and in a multi I've run down 2/3 units including Riptides

 

And just to reinforce the fact even if your tempted by another target then don't the only good Pathfinder is a dead Pathfinder

[eurieus]

I allways roll on telepathy when playing pure RW, but i NEVER EVER roll invisibility haha, the forces of the warp never shine on my rolls ... I agree about psychic shriek, it helped me a lot in the past. 

[SnakeChisler]

Just as an aside on marker lights they need to be declared before you declare your Jinking, the rules say you declare a jink before the unit shoots at you and declaring marker light use is not shooting.

 

Also don't get done with multiple weapons in overwatch or interceptor their Battle suit system rule clearly states 2 weapons in the shooting phase (not your movement or assault phase).

[Centurio]

I have fought Tau with my Ravenwing, with some success. I like to have at least one squad with flamers. How many Riptides he brings will dictate your tactics, but no matter what you want to go first and DO NOT want to reserve anything. Reserves will allow him to destroy your army piecemeal. You need to scout forward and start killing from turn 1. I would prioritize any markerlight unit first as well as riptides. With your black knights you should be able to take riptides down if you can get close to them. He can probably erase one unit of his choice from the board each turn so you have to get close fast. I would recommend attack bikes to take his overwatch fire... I would replace the speeders with more bikes/attack bikes. See my pure ravenwing battle reports for some further ideas.

[rdemings]

I would drop the ravenwing banner for a dakka banner, drop the chaplain for a libby with pfg digi weapons and force axe.

 

are you taking 2 landspeeders?  I see that you have it listed as troop and fa...  tau are going to jack up your cover anyway, so i would also drop the dark shroud and take either more bikes or another landspeeder with 2 heavy bolters.  heavy bolters and dakka banner'd bikes will chew up pathfinders right quick....

[shabbadoo]

Take neither of those banners. Take the Standard of Fortitude so that you get FNP (likley in addition to armor/jink saves versus the majority of the Tau shooting) for lots of models against everything but rail gun solid shots. If the Tau force doesn't feature more than one Riptide, and no Kroot, this is one situation where I would put heavy flamers on Landspeeders, as a Kroot-less Tau army is one that you really do not need to worry about assulting you.  Drop them in and fry some fish! :D

[Centurio]

I concur.... I have found the standard of fortitude to be the most useful.

[eurieus]

I would drop the ravenwing banner for a dakka banner, drop the chaplain for a libby with pfg digi weapons and force axe.

 

are you taking 2 landspeeders?  I see that you have it listed as troop and fa...  tau are going to jack up your cover anyway, so i would also drop the dark shroud and take either more bikes or another landspeeder with 2 heavy bolters.  heavy bolters and dakka banner'd bikes will chew up pathfinders right quick....

 

I allready have the standard of fortitude, the RW banner was for some hit and run, and i wanted to try it out :D 

 

And why have a libby equiped for CC with a PFG ? 

 

Anyway i played yesterday and it was a blood bath ! 

 

1500 pts he had: 

 

1 Tau commander with 2 battlesuits

1 squad of three battlesuits

2 squads of pathfinder 

3 squads of fire warriors 

1 hammerhead 

And the obligatory riptide. 

 

My list was the same as the one in the first post but i switched the bike chaplain with the bike librarian and added some sniper scouts.

 

It was a win for me, but a very close one ! The only things remaining on the table was one of my landspeeder and Sammael with one wound  and his Hammerhead. 

 

I vastly underestimated the shooting the fire warriors can do, S5 really negate the toughness of a bike army. I also targeted the two pathfinders squad asap , they were destroyed turn 2 but still managed to mark the libby command squad and the ignore cover from it really hurt. 

 

Again the Standard of Fortitude did AWESOME and saved so many bike i definitly think i would've lost without it. The other MVP was the darkshroud, with the markerlights gone, he really helped having my second command squad endure more fire. 

 

And again, Joe the crappy librarian did nothing , i rolled on telepathy , he managed to cast invisibility once, taking a wound to perils and dying next turn to suits plasma. That is EXACTLY how he dies all the time, either not casting any powers, or taking wounds doing it. I will probably stick with the Int-chaplain in the futur. 

 

Anyway, all your advice really helped me, but still , i dont know how i would do against a big spammy Tau list. 

[rdemings]

Congrats on the win, brother.

 

I always take the digi weapons on my Libby as you may need that ap2 reroll, especially against a riptide. Throw force in for the instant death...

 

Sorry to here the libby didn't work for you... I must be the only one to have never periled ever...

[eurieus]

Congrats on the win, brother.

 

I always take the digi weapons on my Libby as you may need that ap2 reroll, especially against a riptide. Throw force in for the instant death...

 

Sorry to here the libby didn't work for you... I must be the only one to have never periled ever...

 

He either peril, or do nothing, i dont think it's a bad unit at all, but i'm just not lucky with him, ever :D 

 

I understand the force axe/digi weapon combo, i was just puzzled by the added PFG you suggested since it gives 4++ to everyone around him, enemies included. 

[SnakeChisler]

Its tactics with the Librarian if your on the invisibility kick you need to roll 5 dice to get it off so your gonna roll double 6 eventually 3 dice at a warp charge 1 power is a better bet.

 

Choosing Librarian powers is a key element if your opponent is Tau and has fire warriors then Pyro with a warp charge one heavy flamer Primaris is useful also don't underestimate Force it stops your opponent taking FNP as well as instant killing them. I take Divination frequently to put re-rolls on the Ravenwing command squad for combat & there's a few others in their that will help against Tau such as Rending & the Ignores cover 1.

 

Tau don't have access to Eternal warrior  

 

Without the PFG I'd be dead in the water it would be Deep Striking Buff Commander + Plasma Suits Blam kiss goodbye to command squad