Purifiers

[Prot]

This is an interesting debate. I like the idea of a Purgation squad, but I think automatically people (myself included) just auto write them off because of the instant comparison to Devastator squads, which is probably a bad comparison since they are very different units. It's interesting to consider these comments when attempting to use them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This has not been my experience. However, most of the IG lists I see are either russ spam (which I've not really had a problem tabling) or tiggy-fueled power blobs with rad and psychotroke grenades (which focus more on board control than killing power).

Neither of those are competitive IG builds. Blob Guard died a horrible death when Riptides and Serpent Shields were first introduced in 6th. We're now in 7th, and IG don't do infantry spam anymore. They either try and mech (with mixed results), or they go Air-Cav, or they Ally Knight-Titans or Marines and plug gaps that way. They are a shadow of their former 5th edition glory, but they can still AV11 with zero issue.

Just as a side comment, your local meta is incredibly strange. In which case, if you run pure GK mech and achieve results, that's great, but only for you. I'm trying to point out the limitations of your advice on these matters, because you're being obtuse about the weaknesses of your army build. Hard-counters exist and are not corner-case or obscure, they're about as mainstream as can be. The fact you've never encountered them doesn't invalidate their existence, or their threat to AV11/PA reliant armies.

Missilesides are certainly annoying, but one unit in one army is not a reason to not take rhinos. I've found them to be helpful far more times than I've found them to be a hindrance. And like I've said several times before, if I go first, my purifiers are going to be where I need them by turn 2, and most of the time I'll have enough alive to do some return damage turn 2.

Also, 3 5man units of purifiers in rhinos comes in at 570 points. In no way is that most of my army. And I do only run 2 dreadknights. 3 (or more) is a lot of points, and honestly feels like a crutch. I prefer to win my games because I outplayed my opponent, not because I ran a gimmicky list.

IJ, do I have to list every S6/S7 platform in the game? Come on man. MissileSides are just the worst offender, but there are plenty of balanced autocannon-type weapons across all armies in the game. Again, your personal experience is not relevant to the wider metagame. It's important to you, same as my experiences are important to me. But I'm not going to pretend autocannons don't exist.

You only take 3? I was assuming your build was at least 4 squads, maybe with Strikes in Rhinos as backup and filler Troops. 3 is pathetically easy to deal with. If you had 6 Rhinos, I might see your point, as that's kinda critical mass.

You can't outplay your opponent if you're dead. Neither can you plan your strategy and tactics 2 turns ahead, when your unit dies this turn right now, and is now gone forever from the game. Dreadknights cost 205pts default, which is an incredible bargain for what you get. By way of comparison;

205 of DK is 6x psycannon shots always and can charge after shooting, 4-5 S10 AP2 melee attacks at I4, 4x T6 wounds with 2+/5+ saves, on a model that can move 12" normally and once per game 30" ignoring all obstacles.

190 points for Purifiers is 8x psycannon while stationary, 4 psycannon shots at 12", can't charge after shooting either. 10-15 S4 AP3 attacks, 'Cleansing Flame' but it's only good against infantry or light Flyers/FMC's, and 5 T4 wounds in 3+ armour. Wrapped around it, an AV11 3HP vehicle that can move 12" or 18" flat out.

Even taking into account the ablative nature of the Rhino, the Purifiers are still far easier to kill, slower, less effective at shooting, less of a threat in melee (they're still scary though), and they are not even that much cheaper.

Do you consider 22% pathetically low? I mean, a meltagun has less of a chance of blowing up a rhino than a gatling psilencer has a chance of insta-gibbing a riptide. And who said I don't have terminators and dreadknights in my list? How can you give an honest critique on a unit that I use without knowing the whole list? This thread is about purifiers. I'm merely stating that I run them a certain way, and that way works for me. And for the record, if I'm dead, I didn't play smarter than my opponent.

Yeah, but by definition, if you're taking Purifiers+2x psycannons+Rhino, that's points you can't spend on Terminators and DK's. Which means less of them, not to mention anything else like Ravens or Allies.

I don't need to see your whole list to tell you mech Purifiers is a bad idea. It's a bad idea regardless of point level, or whatever else you're taking.

So you only lose when you make a mistake?

Not in my experience. I generally have PA dudes left at the end of the game. I've beaten all kinds of armies using purifier spam, including tau (farsight enclave and codex:tau), necrons (including the old tesseract vault with the helstorm D weapon), eldar (iyanden wraith spam and serpent spam), invisible centurions, TWC spam, baneblades, shadowswords, stormlords, stormswords, imperial knights (including ad-lance), fearless invisible power blobs, and all other manners of nasty combos people come up with. Ironically, the last time I lost a game was against daemon summoning, and that was only because I forgot to play the mission because I was having so much fun killing daemons. As far as xenos go, necrons don't hit as hard as I do in overall shooting or assault, tau gunlines crumble to a good turn of assaults, and really, only eldar can stay far enough away from our guns while still maintaining solid shooting and enough mobility to avoid assaults. This does not make them unbeatable, just difficult. If you play smarter than your opponent, you will win more often than you lose.

I responded to this statement before, so I'll ask again. Does no one shoot you? Because even without really trying to build for Marine matchups, any of those lists destroy AV11 and PA with impunity.

Playing smarter means nothing if you're unit dies before it's done even half the things you planned with it.

just gave you a list of armies I've defeated, most of which did not exist in 4th edition, so I don't get your reference. And my purifiers don't survive in melee against those units. Mostly because they rarely get into melee with them. Psycannons take a bit of the edge off, them dreadknights slam in do what they can (while purifiers cast cleansing flame outside of combat for good measure). *shrug* seems to work pretty well. The best thing to do against centurions, is just assault them. tarpit them as long as you can. Sure, you probably going to lose a unit of terminators or a dreadknight before you make it in, but you only need to hold them down for a couple of turns to really knock their efficiency off.

My reference point is that autocannons exist, and they're in every army in one form or another. So is AP3, if not AP2. So, I'm still really puzzled how your Purifiers don't die Turn 1 or Turn 2.

2 turns? What? If I go first, I move 18". I'm where I need to be so I can start shooting turn 2. If I don't go first, well, it's rare that I lose 2 rhinos turn 1. I happens, but not often. If it does, they're usually out for the count. If I apply enough pressure with forward assault units, they may survive to do some shooting late game, but they usually end up camping on a well placed objective out of LoS and cleansing flame anyone that comes close.

By definition, if they're out of Line of Sight, they're not shooting anything. If you can see them, they can see you. Also, it's not like your opponent is going to sit still if you're cowering behind some Line of Sight blocking terrain. He'll move, sometimes faster than you too, and just re-acquire your Purifiers again. Unless you exclusively play Cityfight for some arcane reason, that's how it is.

This is an interesting debate. I like the idea of a Purgation squad, but I think automatically people (myself included) just auto write them off because of the instant comparison to Devastator squads, which is probably a bad comparison since they are very different units. It's interesting to consider these comments when attempting to use them.

Devastators are trash for reasons entirely seperate to why Purgators are bad. Purgators are bad because they're even worse than Devastators. They're actually worse than every other unit in our codex. I'd prefer Devastators in GK, that's the gulf between them.

Jks, I'm taking Devastator Centurions with grav guns but you get the idea.

[Zhukov]

Darius his oppenents always seem to have an unlimited amount of any kind of firepower needed to kill the units he deems bad. Terrain never exists either. Poor Darius, no wonder he loses a lot against Tau and IG, I would too if there was no terrain, good missions ánd they're tailoring lists against me! ;)

 

Autocannons for one do not autokill any Rhino in sight. Do a squad of Broadsides kill a rhino if they shoot it? Yes. Does that mean the Rhino is bad? Nope.

 

Frankly, the single worst offender for any Mech based armies at the moment is really just Wave Serpents. Once those are brought down to a reasonable level I can see Rhino based units being a lot more viable again and Purifiers will be among those.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius his oppenents always seem to have an unlimited amount of any kind of firepower needed to kill the units he deems bad. Terrain never exists either. Poor Darius, no wonder he loses a lot against Tau and IG, I would too if there was no terrain, good missions ánd they're tailoring lists against me!

When you're done sticking needles into your voodoo doll of me, I'd like you to address what I actually wrote. Nice try though.

Autocannons for one do not autokill any Rhino in sight. Do a squad of Broadsides kill a rhino if they shoot it? Yes. Does that mean the Rhino is bad? Nope.

I have to admire your tenacity. It takes courage to verbal me this hard. Also, you kinda hilariously make my point for me. Broadsides delete Rhinos at will. Ergo, Rhinos aren't a good plan against Tau. I can keep going with examples for just about every relevant army. Hell, even Sisters delete AV11 reasonably well.

Frankly, the single worst offender for any Mech based armies at the moment is really just Wave Serpents. Once those are brought down to a reasonable level I can see Rhino based units being a lot more viable again and Purifiers will be among those.

It's one of the worst, but it's not the only one. Even if Serpent Shields no longer existed (be still my beating heart), there are still plenty of readily-available ways for every army in the game to kill a Rhino. Or three.

[Zhukov]

 

 

When you're done sticking needles into your voodoo doll of me, I'd like you to address what I actually wrote. Nice try though. 

 

Thank you, I found it decently witty too considering my subconsciousness could almost write that reply ^^ Sometimes replying in such a style is better than adressing your points, seriously. One of the reasons being that your points hardly bear much real content. You're just fighting battles with words instead of on an actual table. Many of your posts look like the debates little kids have, the ones along the lines of "My dad is stronger than yours!". Now if it seems like I'm trolling, I'm not, I ensure you. I'm honestly trying to make you revise the way you put your arguments.

 

I have to admire your tenacity. It takes courage to verbal me this hard. Also, you kinda hilariously make my point for me. Broadsides delete Rhinos at will. Ergo, Rhinos aren't a good plan against Tau.

Here for example you come to a conclusion, except it's not one which logicly follows from previous arguments. "Soldiers die to guns, therefore it's useless to have soldiers". Sorry, too lazy to think of a better example, but the point should be clear still. Okay, I'll explain it in 40k terms: You deploy outside of Broadsides their range, or out of sight. You should get a turn of movement most of the time with Rhinos. Now, your conclusion is that because a 210+ point unit kills a 40 points costing Rhino, the Rhino isn't a good plan against Tau? And you wonder why I don't adress all of your points? That's like wondering why I don't go into debate with religious fanatics. They're not in debates to gain additional knowledge or insight, they're in it simply to say their opinion without even wanting to reconsider theirs.

 

It's one of the worst, but it's not the only one. Even if Serpent Shields no longer existed (be still my beating heart), there are still plenty of readily-available ways for every army in the game to kill a Rhino. Or three. 

 

 

You're really saying that 40 point Rhinos can be killed aren't you?

 

Btw, my dad is stronger than yours.

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Thank you, I found it decently witty too considering my subconsciousness could almost write that reply ^^ Sometimes replying in such a style is better than adressing your points, seriously. One of the reasons being that your points hardly bear much real content. You're just fighting battles with words instead of on an actual table. Many of your posts look like the debates little kids have, the ones along the lines of "My dad is stronger than yours!". Now if it seems like I'm trolling, I'm not, I ensure you. I'm honestly trying to make you revise the way you put your arguments.

 

Condescension and patronisation. Are you going for troll bingo? I'll have to let GML know he's got competition. Also, thanks for allowing me to discard your opinions by the same measure. You don't address my points, or bother to offer counter-arguments. So I'll do the same courtesy for you. 

Here for example you come to a conclusion, except it's not one which logicly follows from previous arguments. "Soldiers die to guns, therefore it's useless to have soldiers". Sorry, too lazy to think of a better example, but the point should be clear still.

 

You're too lazy to even make a convincing strawman? Hey now, you're never going to replace GML with that attitude. 

Okay, I'll explain it in 40k terms: You deploy outside of Broadsides their range, or out of sight. 

 

Oh wow, I never thought of doing that. Please, enlighten me further. 

You should get a turn of movement most of the time with Rhinos

 

Into range of those Broadsides...oh wait, I think I'm missing something. I thought we were hiding out of range/Line of Sight? 

 Now, your conclusion is that because a 210+ point unit kills a 40 points costing Rhino, the Rhino isn't a good plan against Tau?

 

This is more like it. Don't forget, they can Split Fire with a wargear upgrade if need be, so potentially two Immobilised/dead Rhinos. Also, by killing/immobilising your Rhino, they also neutralise your Purifiers for at least a turn, as they now have to footslog to get into range. You were saying?

And you wonder why I don't adress all of your points?

 

Not any more. You lack the ability to do so. I understand now. It's okay. 

That's like wondering why I don't go into debate with religious fanatics. They're not in debates to gain additional knowledge or insight, they're in it simply to say their opinion without even wanting to reconsider theirs.

 

It's almost like people won't change their minds unless you can convince them to. Huh, human psychology and logic are hard aye. 

You're really saying that 40 point Rhinos can be killed aren't you?

 

I am. But I'm obviously wrong. Because they're actually impossible to kill. Rhinos rampage through tournaments, unstoppable juggernauts of war. 

Btw, my dad is stronger than yours.

 

He's not smarter though. If he were, you'd be able to beat me in an argument, or at least try. It's called average IQ for a reason. 

[Castellan Blackmane]

Okay guys OP here and as hilarious as this has been let's just de-escalate this and let's get back to just talking tactics rather than trash! Seriously though if I could just say both of you are fairly close. Yes every army can take on AV 11 but rihno transports are literally 35 points. I like to think of them as just another layer of protection for guys in PA Instead of foot slogging. Worst case scenario, they move 12 and it gets blown up. They get two turns worth of foot slogging so for a 35 point speed upgrade which takes heat off the guys inside. Also name any 35 point vehicl. That doesn't get deleted by broadsides etc

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Okay guys OP here and as hilarious as this has been let's just de-escalate this and let's get back to just talking tactics rather than trash!  

 

So we'll just ignore Zhukov then? Sounds good. 

Yes every army can take on AV 11 but rihno transports are literally 35 points. I like to think of them as just another layer of protection for guys in PA Instead of foot slogging. Worst case scenario, they move 12 and it gets blown up. 

 

Nah, there is an even worse case scenario. If the other guy gets first turn, he blows your Rhinos up Turn 1 before you even move them. Unless you hide them all game. Which defeats the purpose taking transports, who are meant to move things towards the enemy...I'll let Zhukov field that one. He's the supreme general of Rhinos. 

They get two turns worth of foot slogging so for a 35 point speed upgrade which takes heat off the guys inside.

 

Assuming it doesn't die Turn 1 or Turn 2, sure. Lot of ifs though. I prefer reliability, rather than just relying on my opponents being braindead. Again though, I defer to Zhukov's formidable tactical genius in this area. His Rhinos never die. EVAH. 

Also name any 35 point vehicl. That doesn't get deleted by broadsides etc 

 

I can't. Have you wondered why no one takes mech lists to the highest levels of 40k competitive play? I'm not an expert, but I'm sure they're related. My hero, Zhukov, has a really good way of considering the situation. I'll try and do the same;

 

Precept A: Rhinos are unkillable

Precept B: No one takes them to tournaments

Conclusion: Everyone playing in tournaments are idiots, Rhinos are unkillable

[Castellan Blackmane]

Just to clarify I'm not talking about the mech list the original question was about how best to deliver purifiers? Others suggested stormravens and I'm liking that most so far. We get it, no rhinos for you but what alternative do you suggest?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just to clarify I'm not talking about the mech list the original question was about how best to deliver purifiers? Others suggested stormravens and I'm liking that most so far. We get it, no rhinos for you but what alternative do you suggest? 

 

Ravens or Allied drop pods. 

 

Ravens are good because they bring Skyfire guns and missiles on a highly mobile platform with decent durability, plus an Assault Ramp, 12 man capacity, and locator beacon. It's expensive (an entire Terminator combat squad), but it brings things literally nothing else does in GK. Amazing Flyer, we're lucky to have it. 

 

Allied drop pods are much cheaper, but you need the HQ+Troops tax to unlock them, and you only get 1. Which is usually all you need anyway, plus it comes down Turn 1, so Purifiers actually benefit from 'Rites' in NSF doing this. 

[Zhukov]

 

 

You're too lazy to even make a convincing strawman?

One uses a strawman if one can't attack the actual argument and when the other person can't reply. Neither requirement is met here. When somebody calls a rhino bad because a unit of broadsides kills it, then mate, with all due respect, that kind of statement doens't need to be refuted at all, the faulty logic of it is there for everybody to be seen.

 

Also, by killing/immobilising your Rhino, they also neutralise your Purifiers for at least a turn, as they now have to footslog to get into range. You were saying?

Correct, that's how the game works. He kills a Rhino, you got movement and protection for the squad inside as a trade-off out of it. Then you'll get shot another turn before you reach CC, if you reach it at all. All of that however does not mean the unit isn't functioning nor that the unit is bad.

 

It's almost like people won't change their minds unless you can convince them to. Huh, human psychology and logic are hard aye. 

No, more like people won't change their minds unless they're open to it being changed in the first place.

 

 

I am. But I'm obviously wrong. Because they're actually impossible to kill. Rhinos rampage through tournaments, unstoppable juggernauts of war. 

Are you playing dumb or deliberately losing arguments? I'll be more clear then just in case you're being serious (I can't tell at this point anymore, although a trolling moderator on B&C is a sight I'd never expect to see): A 40 points (I'm always including Dozer Blades into the sum) costing dedicated transport is not expected to live through a hail of fire and especially not against 3 Broadsides. So why on earth are you pointing it out? That would be like me saying you are a terrible human being because you aren't capable of running 100 meters within 10 seconds. You can only expect so much from a cheap Rhino you know...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One uses a strawman if one can't attack the actual argument and when the other person can't reply. 

 

I'm glad you spend time on Google finding that out. 

Neither requirement is met here.

 

I guess because you say so? Cool. I like appeal to authority as well. 

When somebody calls a rhino bad because a unit of broadsides kills it, then mate, with all due respect, that kind of statement doens't need to be refuted at all, the faulty logic of it is there for everybody to be seen.

 

Facts are faulty logic. Gotcha. 

Correct, that's how the game works. He kills a Rhino, you got movement and protection for the squad inside as a trade-off out of it. Then you'll get shot another turn before you reach CC, if you reach it at all. All of that however does not mean the unit isn't functioning nor that the unit is bad.

 

It means the unit is dead and did nothing of consequence before dying. But I dunno, I guess that's actually tactical genius right? Losing horribly. 

No, more like people won't change their minds unless they're open to it being changed in the first place.

 

It would help if you presented any facts or even logic when doing so. If you can't do either of those basic things, then yeah, why would anyone believe you?

Are you playing dumb or deliberately losing arguments? I'll be more clear then just in case you're being serious (I can't tell at this point anymore, 

 

Rhinos

although a trolling moderator on B&C is a sight I'd never expect to see)

 

Trolling? I'm debating you, on your terms. 

A 40 points (I'm always including Dozer Blades into the sum) costing dedicated transport is not expected to live through a hail of fire and especially not against 3 Broadsides. 

 

You just said earlier;

 

"When somebody calls a rhino bad because a unit of broadsides kills it, then mate, with all due respect, that kind of statement doens't need to be refuted at all, the faulty logic of it is there for everybody to be seen."

 

Are you agreeing with me now? Disagreeing with yourself? I'm so confused. I thought Rhino's couldn't die. 

So why on earth are you pointing it out?

 

It's a fact. Crazy, right?

That would be like me saying you are a terrible human being because you aren't capable of running 100 meters within 10 seconds. 

 

I can. But I take your point. Math is hard. 

 You can only expect so much from a cheap Rhino you know...

 

That's what I've been saying. Are you me?

[Prot]

Gees guys.... you make me want to go back to my Necrons.... and beat you both like a rented mule! ;)

 

Seriously can we please stick to the topic and agree to disagree?

 

I want to explore several facets of the codex, and of course each of our circumstances are going to change the way we do, or see things. Heck, I thought I'd be all over playing 200 Dreadknights ,but after a week of playing 2 different Dark Eldar lists full of poison I realize this isn't the meta to do so....

 

That being said, I'm trying the Rhino experiment tonight. But it will be with Purifiers as I'm still assembling a lot. I do indeed want to get to the point of trying Purgators for the same reason and hey, if it is that bad, I'll just use them in other squads since they pretty much look the same.

[Zhukov]

Facts are faulty logic. Gotcha.

Calling a unit bad isn't a fact, that's a valuation...

 

I'm sorry but I have no interest anymore at this point to continue this, I think people can decide just fine by now whether your logic holds any fruit or if it doesn't!

[Castellan Blackmane]

Thank you prot. As for Darius and Zukhov much as I respect your guys opinions on rhinos please take the argument to a rhino thread.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Gees guys.... you make me want to go back to my Necrons.... and beat you both like a rented mule!

Hey man, I'm pretty sure Decurion breaches the UN Convention on Torture. Don't be that guy ;)

Seriously can we please stick to the topic and agree to disagree?

I'll agree Zhukov is a worthless troll and can leave. Or he can stay and keep getting flayed by me. His choice.

I want to explore several facets of the codex, and of course each of our circumstances are going to change the way we do, or see things. Heck, I thought I'd be all over playing 200 Dreadknights ,but after a week of playing 2 different Dark Eldar lists full of poison I realize this isn't the meta to do so....

Purifiers are the solution. DE melt them, but if you deliver them safely (ie Raven or drop pod, not pathetic Rhinos they immolate Turn 1 with ease), 'Cleansing Flame' vapes them like few other things. I'd still be taking DK's though, they can 'Sanctuary' against dark lance which is more than Terminators can do (Termies are sadly our worst unit in that matchup).

That being said, I'm trying the Rhino experiment tonight. But it will be with Purifiers as I'm still assembling a lot. I do indeed want to get to the point of trying Purgators for the same reason and hey, if it is that bad, I'll just use them in other squads since they pretty much look the same.

Play against Orks for best results. Make sure they don't have Lootaz though.

Calling a unit bad isn't a fact, that's a valuation...

Shifting goalposts is fun.

I'm sorry but I have no interest anymore at this point to continue this, I think people can decide just fine by now whether your logic holds any fruit or if it doesn't!

You're giving up this easily? GML at least sticks around for another three pages before giving up or getting the thread locked. I'm disappointed in you.

Thank you prot. As for Darius and Zukhov much as I respect your guys opinions on rhinos please take the argument to a rhino thread.

Zhukov is gone so we can stop talking about why Rhinos are bad now. Lets' talk about why Puriifers are awesome instead, and how to use them.

[Castellan Blackmane]

Now this was the thread I was looking for! :D

[Lord Blackwood]

This is why my grey  knight buddy knows who  the best tag team partner is !   Ill sacrifice a squad of thunderwolves to give him a drop pod.  

#drop pod lands turn one 

#lol why would you put grey hunters there

# SURPRISE GREY KNIGHTS 

[IndigoJack]

Neither of those are competitive IG builds. Blob Guard died a horrible death when Riptides and Serpent Shields were first introduced in 6th. We're now in 7th, and IG don't do infantry spam anymore. They either try and mech (with mixed results), or they go Air-Cav, or they Ally Knight-Titans or Marines and plug gaps that way. They are a shadow of their former 5th edition glory, but they can still AV11 with zero issue.

The blob usually has tiggy or loth for invisiblity, a priest for fearless, and all manner of psykers with force axes for powers like GoI, hammerhand etc. Additionally, it has an inquisitor with rad grenades to help units wound, and psychotrokes to further neuter the first round of combat. Invis makes it much harder to hurt with riptides and serpent shields. The AV14 mech behind it also make it harder for tau and IG to deal with, as they're anti-AV14 is generally short range and would have to get through the blob first. The list (like all lists) can be beaten, but in the hands of a skilled player, it's not the blow over you think it is. IG firepower is good, but majority BS3 hurts them a lot. I'm not going to go into how I would beat every army combo in the game, as that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Just as a side comment, your local meta is incredibly strange. In which case, if you run pure GK mech and achieve results, that's great, but only for you. I'm trying to point out the limitations of your advice on these matters, because you're being obtuse about the weaknesses of your army build. Hard-counters exist and are not corner-case or obscure, they're about as mainstream as can be. The fact you've never encountered them doesn't invalidate their existence, or their threat to AV11/PA reliant armies.

Strange? How so? I fight the usual suspects (as I've already said in a previous post) as well as oddball lists that force me to change up how I play. I don't at all feel like I'm being obtuse. I'm well aware that units die. If I play a game and only lose a few units, I feel cheated out of a good experience. The probably I think you have, is that you believe armies are both producing high quality shooting and using it efficiently. Wave serpents do it, and do it while being very mobile, and really do give me a run for my money. Tau can, but those lists are generally eschewed for a handful of high quality shooting units.

IJ, do I have to list every S6/S7 platform in the game? Come on man. MissileSides are just the worst offender, but there are plenty of balanced autocannon-type weapons across all armies in the game. Again, your personal experience is not relevant to the wider metagame. It's important to you, same as my experiences are important to me. But I'm not going to pretend autocannons don't exist.

I'm well aware of the power of S6/S7 spam armies. I play one. In fact, that was the intent of my original post. We can do it do. In fact, we do it better, as our S7 can hurt AV13/14. While anecdotal evidence is hardly the best kind, mathammer is just as bad, as it doesn't take into account terrain or player skill level.

You only take 3? I was assuming your build was at least 4 squads, maybe with Strikes in Rhinos as backup and filler Troops. 3 is pathetically easy to deal with. If you had 6 Rhinos, I might see your point, as that's kinda critical mass.

As I mentioned, the scope of this thread is purifiers. I didn't mention that I also have 3 inquisitorial henchman units in psybacks, or my storm raven, etc. I did try and run strikes, but I found they failed pinning or morale checks at inconvenient times and went with purifiers, as fearless prevents that from happening.

You can't outplay your opponent if you're dead. Neither can you plan your strategy and tactics 2 turns ahead, when your unit dies this turn right now, and is now gone forever from the game.

No army can table me turn 1 and turn 2 isn't very likely either. Know your opponent's strength, and what he can do with it. If your opponent kills unit A, be sure you have a plan for unit B and vise verca. Obviously that is a limited example but correctly applied pressure will force your opponent into hard decisions. And always always always play the mission. Having two models left at the end of the game is irrelevant of you won.

Dreadknights cost 205pts default, which is an incredible bargain for what you get. By way of comparison;

205 of DK is 6x psycannon shots always and can charge after shooting, 4-5 S10 AP2 melee attacks at I4, 4x T6 wounds with 2+/5+ saves, on a model that can move 12" normally and once per game 30" ignoring all obstacles.

190 points for Purifiers is 8x psycannon while stationary, 4 psycannon shots at 12", can't charge after shooting either. 10-15 S4 AP3 attacks, 'Cleansing Flame' but it's only good against infantry or light Flyers/FMC's, and 5 T4 wounds in 3+ armour. Wrapped around it, an AV11 3HP vehicle that can move 12" or 18" flat out.

Even taking into account the ablative nature of the Rhino, the Purifiers are still far easier to kill, slower, less effective at shooting, less of a threat in melee (they're still scary though), and they are not even that much cheaper.

I'm not denying that dreadknights are good. I just personally prefer not to field more than 2. A lot of players will look outward for a reason they lost and I don't want dreadknight spam to be an excuse for them.

Yeah, but by definition, if you're taking Purifiers+2x psycannons+Rhino, that's points you can't spend on Terminators and DK's. Which means less of them, not to mention anything else like Ravens or Allies.

I don't need to see your whole list to tell you mech Purifiers is a bad idea. It's a bad idea regardless of point level, or whatever else you're taking.

I have terminators, dreadknights, allies and even a stormraven. And if my purifiers were some token unit that never did anything, I might agree with you. But they do work. People's thought process is rarely, "I should kill those purifers over there instead of that dreadknight in front of my lines, or those terminators, or that raven lining up a shot.." You keep looking at my purifers in a vaccuum, and in a vacuum they are not a great unit. It's when they work together with every other unit in my list do they really pull weight.

So you only lose when you make a mistake?

This should be the mindset of any competitive oriented gamer. If you're blaming your loss on luck or your opponent's list, you are not going to learn anything and improve. Every loss is a chance for self-reflection. What did you do wrong? What did you do instead. Admit you made mistakes, learn from them, and don't do them again.

I responded to this statement before, so I'll ask again. Does no one shoot you? Because even without really trying to build for Marine matchups, any of those lists destroy AV11 and PA with impunity.

Playing smarter means nothing if you're unit dies before it's done even half the things you planned with it.

If I have 3 units in 3 rhinos, it would take a minimum of 6 units to kill all of them. This is of course assuming that everyone can be seen, my opponent got enough hits, pens/wounds and I failed enough armor saves/cover saves (assuming I could take them in the first place). Is it possible? Sure. But statistics are going to kick in at some point and things are going to miss, scatter, fail to wound etc. So odds are, they're going to need more than 6 units to kill all of the purifiers. Then of course, there are the other units in my army, that stand ready to assault because they spent their army's shooting on some purifiers. This is what I'm talking about, don't expose yourself until you can provide a threat overload that forces your opponent into mistakes.

My reference point is that autocannons exist, and they're in every army in one form or another. So is AP3, if not AP2. So, I'm still really puzzled how your Purifiers don't die Turn 1 or Turn 2.

Because my army consists of more than just the purifiers?

By definition, if they're out of Line of Sight, they're not shooting anything. If you can see them, they can see you. Also, it's not like your opponent is going to sit still if you're cowering behind some Line of Sight blocking terrain. He'll move, sometimes faster than you too, and just re-acquire your Purifiers again. Unless you exclusively play Cityfight for some arcane reason, that's how it is.

Cleansing flame doesn't need LoS, that's one of the beauties of it. And again, you're assuming that purifiers are all I have, they are not. There are actually all kinds of boards at my FLGS. There are boards with sparse terrain, and boards with LoS blocking terrain so dense as to block all fire lanes across the board. It's one of the reasons I really like the store I play at.

Darius his oppenents always seem to have an unlimited amount of any kind of firepower needed to kill the units he deems bad. Terrain never exists either. Poor Darius, no wonder he loses a lot against Tau and IG, I would too if there was no terrain, good missions ánd they're tailoring lists against me!

Autocannons for one do not autokill any Rhino in sight. Do a squad of Broadsides kill a rhino if they shoot it? Yes. Does that mean the Rhino is bad? Nope.

Frankly, the single worst offender for any Mech based armies at the moment is really just Wave Serpents. Once those are brought down to a reasonable level I can see Rhino based units being a lot more viable again and Purifiers will be among those.

Seriously, if rumors of this eldar codex is true, I hope serpent shields get toned down a fair bit.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purifiers:

 

Pros:

- Cheap (no really, 5pts over a Strike Knight for +1A and still the option of falchions is already value town)

- Fearless (reliable, Leadership never matters, all good no downside)

- WC2 (and in combat squads no less. More WC means more powers and more dispel of enemy powers, again all good no downside)

- 'Cleansing Flame', hands down our best infantry, light vehicle/FMC/Flyer clearing weapon. It also hits things out of Line of Sight, haha nova

- PA, which means you can fit a whole 10-man unit inside a Raven or drop pod, then combat squad them

- Soul Blaize on their melee attacks

 

Cons:

- PA (no invul, AP3 reks them...sad days to be a Marine)

- No Deepstrike (which is why they need a Raven or pod to be effective, as otherwise you're playing catchup with the rest of the NSF)

- Requires transportation (this can make them hard to fit into smaller lists, which is ironically where they're most effective)

 

 

So, what can we draw from that? Purifiers are solid gold as a PA unit, but have all the attendant problems of being in PA and on foot, without either Deepstrike or mobility built in to make up for it (which is how Strikes, Terminators and Interceptors get around it). So, you need a transport. 

 

Raven offers Skyfire weaponry, an Assault Ramp, unparalleled mobility, Flyer defense tech, and a locator beacon to bring in stuff that didn't arrive Turn 1 (it happens, Reserves rolls are random). It is quite expensive though, for good reason. So consider carefully if your list can afford 325 points minimum to not arrive till Turn 2 at best. If so, go for it. But in smaller games, a Raven is impractical. 

 

Allied drop pod requires you to Ally with either BA or SW, which may not be your preferred Ally. If not, don't take Purifiers or take a Raven instead. If you do like what BA or SW offer, then the drop pod is a much cheaper option for Purifiers. It also arrives Turn 1 with your NSF, and the Purifiers benefit from 'Rites' which is very nice. Drop Pods function long after they land as Line of Sight blockers and charge lane annoyances. Most Interceptor won't kill them, and even if you do kill the pod, the passengers still get out anyway. So its a completely disposable annoyance that delivers Purifiers Turn 1 and it still only costs the same as a Rhino. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The blob usually has tiggy or loth for invisiblity, a priest for fearless, and all manner of psykers with force axes for powers like GoI, hammerhand etc. Additionally, it has an inquisitor with rad grenades to help units wound, and psychotrokes to further neuter the first round of combat. Invis makes it much harder to hurt with riptides and serpent shields

 

That's a lot of points to protect T3 infantry. Sounds like a colossal waste of time and energy, but hey, I don't play that build. 'Invis' has to actually go up though, if you fail to cast it or they dispel, you're screwed. That build is very much at the mercy of the dice gods from the sound of things. At least Centurion Star has Draigo tanking AP2 up front, and largely gets by without psychic buffs. Also, what you're describing is not seen at tournaments. 

The AV14 mech behind it also make it harder for tau and IG to deal with, as they're anti-AV14 is generally short range and would have to get through the blob first.

 

Well yeah, thats why they put their melta on fast platforms. They can drive over or Deepstrike behind the blob, so I don't buy that argument. Flanking is like Eldar's strength, they're one of the most mobile armies in existence. Not to mention Necrons would die from laughter seeing a handful of Russes. Yes, please field high AV that our gauss weapons kill just as easily as a 35pt Rhino or 55pt Chimera. 

The list (like all lists) can be beaten, but in the hands of a skilled player, it's not the blow over you think it is. IG firepower is good, but majority BS3 hurts them a lot. I'm not going to go into how I would beat every army combo in the game, as that's beyond the scope of this thread.

 

I'll settle for how it beats one competitive army. But as you say, that's not the point of the thread. We're not here to debate anecdotal builds you see at your club. We're hear to talk about Purifers and why they're awesome and how to use them. 

Strange? How so? I fight the usual suspects (as I've already said in a previous post) as well as oddball lists that force me to change up how I play. I don't at all feel like I'm being obtuse. I'm well aware that units die. If I play a game and only lose a few units, I feel cheated out of a good experience. The probably I think you have, is that you believe armies are both producing high quality shooting and using it efficiently. Wave serpents do it, and do it while being very mobile, and really do give me a run for my money. Tau can, but those lists are generally eschewed for a handful of high quality shooting units.

 

Armies that produce high quality shooting play themselves. You don't need to be a tactical genius to play Tau or Eldar efficiently. You literally just shoot things till they're dead, rinse, repeat. 

I'm well aware of the power of S6/S7 spam armies. I play one. In fact, that was the intent of my original post. We can do it do. In fact, we do it better, as our S7 can hurt AV13/14. While anecdotal evidence is hardly the best kind, mathammer is just as bad, as it doesn't take into account terrain or player skill level.

 

Terran doesn't mean anything when said firepower ignores cover and sometimes even Line of Sight (or they can move to mitigate such things). Player skill means nothing when they can just shoot your units dead. 

As I mentioned, the scope of this thread is purifiers. I didn't mention that I also have 3 inquisitorial henchman units in psybacks, or my storm raven, etc. I did try and run strikes, but I found they failed pinning or morale checks at inconvenient times and went with purifiers, as fearless prevents that from happening.

 

Why not just drop all the other junk and take 2-3 Ravens with Purifiers? 

No army can table me turn 1 and turn 2 isn't very likely either. Know your opponent's strength, and what he can do with it. If your opponent kills unit A, be sure you have a plan for unit B and vise verca. Obviously that is a limited example but correctly applied pressure will force your opponent into hard decisions. And always always always play the mission. Having two models left at the end of the game is irrelevant of you won.

 

I didn't say tabling. I said you can't use your Purifiers or whatever if they're dead. I was speaking about units, not armies. The earliest table wipe I've ever seen was bottom of Turn 4 for the winning player. Even Turn 3 is really rare, you need loaded dice lol. 

I'm not denying that dreadknights are good. I just personally prefer not to field more than 2. A lot of players will look outward for a reason they lost and I don't want dreadknight spam to be an excuse for them.

 

Maybe they should stop being crybabies and realise the problem isn't DK's, its them. A list can be improved upon, but it's no good if the player isn't going to improve themselves. That's what we seek to do here, to share our experience and insight so we can all git gud. The worst kind of 40k players are the bitter jaded vets who never change and always moan about WAAC. Adapt or die. 

I have terminators, dreadknights, allies and even a stormraven. And if my purifiers were some token unit that never did anything, I might agree with you. But they do work. People's thought process is rarely, "I should kill those purifers over there instead of that dreadknight in front of my lines, or those terminators, or that raven lining up a shot.." You keep looking at my purifers in a vaccuum, and in a vacuum they are not a great unit. It's when they work together with every other unit in my list do they really pull weight.

 

Many armies aren't going to need to make such a decision, because they can engage at least two, if not all three. Or, more commonly, they ignore the least pressing threat (probably the Purifiers, as they're at least a turn away from doing anything at all). Target priority isn't hard. 

This should be the mindset of any competitive oriented gamer. If you're blaming your loss on luck or your opponent's list, you are not going to learn anything and improve. Every loss is a chance for self-reflection. What did you do wrong? What did you do instead. Admit you made mistakes, learn from them, and don't do them again.

 

What if you lost because you did everything right, but your opponent just did the same but better? That's equally likely, surely. One player can make mistakes, and lose. One player can make mistakes, but still win. And both players can make mistakes and the result can still go either way. 40k is like that, RNG is in its blood. 

 

I agree with your sentiments about improvement and evaluation though. 100%. 

If I have 3 units in 3 rhinos, it would take a minimum of 6 units to kill all of them. This is of course assuming that everyone can be seen, my opponent got enough hits, pens/wounds and I failed enough armor saves/cover saves (assuming I could take them in the first place). Is it possible? Sure. But statistics are going to kick in at some point and things are going to miss, scatter, fail to wound etc. So odds are, they're going to need more than 6 units to kill all of the purifiers. Then of course, there are the other units in my army, that stand ready to assault because they spent their army's shooting on some purifiers. This is what I'm talking about, don't expose yourself until you can provide a threat overload that forces your opponent into mistakes.

 

It doesn't take 6, it can take as few as 2. Two Broadside teams working in concert and using Split Fire can immobilise or destroy 3 Rhino hulls. More commonly though, they'd probably just opt for guranteed destruction, and kill 2 with two Broadside teams. Then I dunno, use seeker missiles on the last one. Tau do not lack for options in destroying AV11, or indeed anything really. Their ranged armoury is extensive and pretty flexible. 

Because my army consists of more than just the purifiers?

 

Yeah we've established that. What I'm saying is, that doesn't change the fact autocannons kill Rhinos. And that your opponent will still kill your Rhino, despite your DK's and Termies applying pressure. 

Cleansing flame doesn't need LoS, that's one of the beauties of it. And again, you're assuming that purifiers are all I have, they are not. There are actually all kinds of boards at my FLGS. There are boards with sparse terrain, and boards with LoS blocking terrain so dense as to block all fire lanes across the board. It's one of the reasons I really like the store I play at.

 

9" range is a huge limiter though, unless you can deliver them into range quickly. That's why I prefer Ravens or drop pods. Pods deliver Turn 1, Ravens functionally deliver you at the same time as Rhinos and are much more survivable and useful in their own right (with the attendant higher cost). 

Seriously, if rumors of this eldar codex is true, I hope serpent shields get toned down a fair bit. 

 

Hopefully. 

[IndigoJack]

That's a lot of points to protect T3 infantry. Sounds like a colossal waste of time and energy, but hey, I don't play that build. 'Invis' has to actually go up though, if you fail to cast it or they dispel, you're screwed. That build is very much at the mercy of the dice gods from the sound of things. At least Centurion Star has Draigo tanking AP2 up front, and largely gets by without psychic buffs. Also, what you're describing is not seen at tournaments.

My friend just got 2nd at a 20+ person (I don't remember the exact number) RTT with his power blob and LVO had a DA/IG power blob in the finals so I assure you, at some level they are seen at tournaments. The purpose of the blob is more of a tarpit, with a bit of killing power thrown in. The best way to fight that list is like every other deathstar, ignore it and kill everything else. Let that blob do whatever it wants, at the end of the game it's only ever going to get one objective.

Well yeah, thats why they put their melta on fast platforms. They can drive over or Deepstrike behind the blob, so I don't buy that argument. Flanking is like Eldar's strength, they're one of the most mobile armies in existence. Not to mention Necrons would die from laughter seeing a handful of Russes. Yes, please field high AV that our gauss weapons kill just as easily as a 35pt Rhino or 55pt Chimera.

Drive over and deep strike aren't good options, as the vehicles are bubble wrapped by the blob. Anything that gets too close, gets eaten by the blob. I'm not trying to say there aren't answers to power blobs, there are.

Armies that produce high quality shooting play themselves. You don't need to be a tactical genius to play Tau or Eldar efficiently. You literally just shoot things till they're dead, rinse, repeat.

I also play a high quality shooting army with a strong assault element. It's a war of attrition that comes down to who got the most objectives at the end of the game.

Terran doesn't mean anything when said firepower ignores cover and sometimes even Line of Sight (or they can move to mitigate such things). Player skill means nothing when they can just shoot your units dead.

Terrain always means something. If my opponent has to move to shoot me, I try to ensure that his movement puts him in a compromising position. That's thinking turns in advanced. I've only been effectively neutered by turn 2 once, and that was against eldar. Hammer and anvil, insta-killing wraithcannons, and a lot of 6s from bladestorm put me in a very compromising position. This is not the norm though. Understanding your army's strength and weaknesses, and understand your opponents. Every army has a weakness, and I play a list that usually has some element my opponent is weak to.

Why not just drop all the other junk and take 2-3 Ravens with Purifiers?

Because that's a lot of eggs in a couple of baskets. It's not much harder for tau and eldar to knock out an AV12 flyer than it is a rhino. Also, that would ruin the theme of S6/S7 shooting that my army runs, and basically becomes a different list entirely. Also, I don't own more than one stormraven

I didn't say tabling. I said you can't use your Purifiers or whatever if they're dead. I was speaking about units, not armies. The earliest table wipe I've ever seen was bottom of Turn 4 for the winning player. Even Turn 3 is really rare, you need loaded dice lol.

If my purifiers die, they die. It is a significant effort to remove them from that range though, so it means that the rest of my army is safe from shooting for that turn.

Maybe they should stop being crybabies and realise the problem isn't DK's, its them. A list can be improved upon, but it's no good if the player isn't going to improve themselves. That's what we seek to do here, to share our experience and insight so we can all git gud. The worst kind of 40k players are the bitter jaded vets who never change and always moan about WAAC. Adapt or die.

I agree, but that doesn't really stop people from whining haha.

Many armies aren't going to need to make such a decision, because they can engage at least two, if not all three. Or, more commonly, they ignore the least pressing threat (probably the Purifiers, as they're at least a turn away from doing anything at all). Target priority isn't hard.

Target priority can be hard though. That's what I mean about hard choices. Make your opponent make difficult decisions on what to engage.

What if you lost because you did everything right, but your opponent just did the same but better? That's equally likely, surely. One player can make mistakes, and lose. One player can make mistakes, but still win. And both players can make mistakes and the result can still go either way. 40k is like that, RNG is in its blood.

I agree with your sentiments about improvement and evaluation though. 100%.

Have you ever done everything right? If you walk away from a lost game and told yourself that you did everything right but still lost, are you being honest with yourself? People make mistakes. Good players make less mistakes. It's the reason we've seen some weird armies pop up at top tables at tournaments. People are taking armies that the internet says is bad, and doing well with them.

It doesn't take 6, it can take as few as 2. Two Broadside teams working in concert and using Split Fire can immobilise or destroy 3 Rhino hulls. More commonly though, they'd probably just opt for guranteed destruction, and kill 2 with two Broadside teams. Then I dunno, use seeker missiles on the last one. Tau do not lack for options in destroying AV11, or indeed anything really. Their ranged armoury is extensive and pretty flexible.

Broadsides would need a fair amount of luck to do that. First you have to declare all of a units targets first, then roll to hit, etc. So you can't fire one, see what happens, then fire another. Also, I generally see braodsides with EWO instead of target locks, but that could just be my meta.

Yeah we've established that. What I'm saying is, that doesn't change the fact autocannons kill Rhinos. And that your opponent will still kill your Rhino, despite your DK's and Termies applying pressure.

I don't know what to say. If you're ignoring the things that are about to crash into your line I'm not going to complain.

9" range is a huge limiter though, unless you can deliver them into range quickly. That's why I prefer Ravens or drop pods. Pods deliver Turn 1, Ravens functionally deliver you at the same time as Rhinos and are much more survivable and useful in their own right (with the attendant higher cost).

You move 6", so you really have a 15" diameter bubble on any model in the unit. I've not found it that limiting, but I don't expect it to trash my opponent's army on its own. I'm not denying that ravens can be useful here. They have their own drawbacks though, since they'll be in reserve, and you'll have a large amount of points not on the table. I'm not saying it's a bad choice, but it feels like a lot of eggs in a basket and I generally prefer a more MSU approach.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My friend just got 2nd at a 20+ person (I don't remember the exact number) RTT with his power blob and LVO had a DA/IG power blob in the finals so I assure you, at some level they are seen at tournaments. The purpose of the blob is more of a tarpit, with a bit of killing power thrown in. The best way to fight that list is like every other deathstar, ignore it and kill everything else. Let that blob do whatever it wants, at the end of the game it's only ever going to get one objective.

I'm not talking about your local tourneys. I'm talking about like Adepticon level stuff. No one is having success with Blob Guard at that level of the game.

Drive over and deep strike aren't good options, as the vehicles are bubble wrapped by the blob. Anything that gets too close, gets eaten by the blob. I'm not trying to say there aren't answers to power blobs, there are.

You can still shoot through the Blob of course. Not to mention it's extremely vulnerable to trading, a characeristic of all Deathstar builds. You charge them with an expendable unit, and watch Defenders React and pile in drag them to one side. Not to mention a unit that large never attacks at full efficiency, unless it fights another 30+ model unit.

I also play a high quality shooting army with a strong assault element. It's a war of attrition that comes down to who got the most objectives at the end of the game.

Exactly. So how exactly do GK fare in the war of attrition? Horribly. We're the most vulnerable army in the game to bad save rolls.

Terrain always means something. If my opponent has to move to shoot me, I try to ensure that his movement puts him in a compromising position. That's thinking turns in advanced. I've only been effectively neutered by turn 2 once, and that was against eldar. Hammer and anvil, insta-killing wraithcannons, and a lot of 6s from bladestorm put me in a very compromising position. This is not the norm though. Understanding your army's strength and weaknesses, and understand your opponents. Every army has a weakness, and I play a list that usually has some element my opponent is weak to.

But as you say yourself, there are ways around it. By all means, plan for terrain, but don't rely upon it in any way. Because like cover saves, or psychic powers, they can be negated or fail to work anyway (7th is very harsh on model position, just like in 6th).

Because that's a lot of eggs in a couple of baskets. It's not much harder for tau and eldar to knock out an AV12 flyer than it is a rhino. Also, that would ruin the theme of S6/S7 shooting that my army runs, and basically becomes a different list entirely. Also, I don't own more than one stormraven

IJ, this is ludicrous. You say 2-3 Ravens is 'eggs in one basket', but then you make a Deathstar with IG, or you run Purifiers in Rhinos. Come on man. AV12 Flyer is much harder to knock out than AV11 ground, even when you take into account you get more Rhino-carries squads. Yes, Broadsides would probably Intercept and kill 1, but that's why you'd take multiples.

If you're that leery of Ravens, who I agree have risks to them, then take Allied drop pods. Puts Purifiers into 'Cleansing Flame' range Turn 1 guranteed (which means same time as Terminators, Shunt and 'Gate' moves), and puts an AV12 piece of Line of Sight blocking terrain in their way of shooting. Plus, you disembark the turn you arrive, so Purifiers aren't limited in what they can do (ie they can move+shoot+charge the turn after they arrive).

If my purifiers die, they die. It is a significant effort to remove them from that range though, so it means that the rest of my army is safe from shooting for that turn.

No its really not. Equal points in any other army will kill them off without much issue.

Target priority can be hard though. That's what I mean about hard choices. Make your opponent make difficult decisions on what to engage.

It's not difficult though, unless you're really new to the game. S6/7 goes into transports, AP2 goes into DK's and Terminators.

Have you ever done everything right? If you walk away from a lost game and told yourself that you did everything right but still lost, are you being honest with yourself? People make mistakes. Good players make less mistakes. It's the reason we've seen some weird armies pop up at top tables at tournaments. People are taking armies that the internet says is bad, and doing well with them.

No, and I'm not claiming I have. I'm simply saying that relying on your opponent not having hard-counters, or being a bad player, is not a winning strategy. No one goes to the competitive level of the game thinking 'haha no one takes S6/7 spam, so my mech army is invincible!'. They realise it's an issue they're bound to face, and plan accordingly.

Good players don't make any less or more mistakes IMO, they're just more aware of it, and how to improve. Bad players are actually the worst at understanding they've even made a mistake. You need to be at a certain level of skill to even understand some of the mistakes in 40k. It goes beyond list-building, and feeds into actual decisions you make in a game. It's not a thing you ever stop learning either. Editions and armies change, as do trends. I'm still not at the level of skill I'd wanna be, but I'm aware of it, and I seek to improve.

Broadsides would need a fair amount of luck to do that. First you have to declare all of a units targets first, then roll to hit, etc. So you can't fire one, see what happens, then fire another. Also, I generally see braodsides with EWO instead of target locks, but that could just be my meta.

(shrug) I'm just saying, they have options. If the Tau player has the marker hits on all three targets to do it, he may go for it. If not, he might just settle for destroying 2 and making the last one deadmeat next turn. And yeah, I commonly see EWO to provide anti-Flyer tech, but I've seen Split Fire used before to great effect. Tau are one of the premier armies in the game because they have one of the most extensive ranged arsenals in the game, mounted on durable and flexible platforms. They have a tonne of options to destroy us. We largely don't. That said, once we hit melee it's the compete opposite. All their fancy technology and guns melts to our nemesis weaponry and psychic powers. It's why it's such a lopsided matchup for both armies. If the Tau player can fend off your assaults with smart choices and trades, he can just shoot you dead. If you manage to alpha-strike effectively and remove their ability to slay you at will (or at least partially cripple it), you have the initiative.

I don't know what to say. If you're ignoring the things that are about to crash into your line I'm not going to complain.

But they're not ignoring them. They're shooting your DK's and Terminators with AP2. More and more, I see Crisis having a resurgence in Tau for this precise reason. It's not just us who have scary fast MC's who tear Riptides to shreds, Daemons and even Eldar can do the same. It depends on the list if they go double plasma rifle, plasma+fusion, or double fusion (note I'm saying 'double', because they're not twin-linked anymore). But they can take apart at least one DK fairly reliably, sometimes two if their dice are hot. Then you eat Supporting Fire Overwatch in your Assault phase as well, don't forget.

You move 6", so you really have a 15" diameter bubble on any model in the unit. I've not found it that limiting, but I don't expect it to trash my opponent's army on its own. I'm not denying that ravens can be useful here. They have their own drawbacks though, since they'll be in reserve, and you'll have a large amount of points not on the table. I'm not saying it's a bad choice, but it feels like a lot of eggs in a basket and I generally prefer a more MSU approach.

Then why not drop pods? They do everything you want your Rhinos to do, but better. They're also hitting the table Turn 1 (you always go either 1 pod in an Allied detachment, or 3 in a CAD detachment, to maximise first turn landings), and they eat Interceptor very well, which helps with Terminator and even Raven delivery.

[IndigoJack]

I'm not talking about your local tourneys. I'm talking about like Adepticon level stuff. No one is having success with Blob Guard at that level of the game.

Adepticon is one of the wargaming conventions in the world (second only to Salute, I believe) and has many of the top 40k players in the US, if not the world competing in the 40k championship. My local tournaments feature the best players in my area. Which do you think is more relevant to me? If the adepticon top 8 is what your local meta features in both army composition and skill level then I feel for you. You have to understand though, that's not everyone's experience. Most 40k players don't play competitively, and those that do usually only do so at the local level.

You can still shoot through the Blob of course. Not to mention it's extremely vulnerable to trading, a characeristic of all Deathstar builds. You charge them with an expendable unit, and watch Defenders React and pile in drag them to one side. Not to mention a unit that large never attacks at full efficiency, unless it fights another 30+ model unit.

You could shoot through it, but the point of bubble wrap is to prevent you from being able to get into melta range, which is what I assumed you were talking about. bubble wrapping really works best for avoiding alpha strikes. Any turn afterwards, and yes, there are a myriad of ways to get through it.

Exactly. So how exactly do GK fare in the war of attrition? Horribly. We're the most vulnerable army in the game to bad save rolls.

Obviously, you've never played deathwing before . I may not have mentioned it in this thread, but I generally play with allies. They help fill my need for cheap scoring units. Which helps when I play such an offensive GK army.

But as you say yourself, there are ways around it. By all means, plan for terrain, but don't rely upon it in any way. Because like cover saves, or psychic powers, they can be negated or fail to work anyway (7th is very harsh on model position, just like in 6th).

The possibility of a save is better than never getting one at all. Obviously, I don't believe that hiding behind some shrubs is going to keep my rhinos alive forever.

IJ, this is ludicrous. You say 2-3 Ravens is 'eggs in one basket', but then you make a Deathstar with IG, or you run Purifiers in Rhinos. Come on man. AV12 Flyer is much harder to knock out than AV11 ground, even when you take into account you get more Rhino-carries squads. Yes, Broadsides would probably Intercept and kill 1, but that's why you'd take multiples.

I never said I play deathstar IG. When I said friend, I wasn't coyly referring to myself. I actually avoid using deathstars, as I find MSU a much more rewarding experience for me. 5 purifers with 2 psycannons in a rhino is 190pts. That's cheaper than a stormraven. Just by adding 5 purifiers with no upgrades to go inside the stormraven, you're now 50% more than my purifiers in their rhino. What happens when my rhino pops? The guys get out, and something else has to shoot them. What happens to purifers in a raven when it goes down while zooming? The flyer explodes, and most (if not all) the occupants die. I don't even see how this can be a comparison when the consequences of losing one is far worse than the consequences of losing the other. I'm not knocking your use of stormravens and purifiers, but the risk to reward ratio doesn't seem worth it to me.

If you're that leery of Ravens, who I agree have risks to them, then take Allied drop pods. Puts Purifiers into 'Cleansing Flame' range Turn 1 guranteed (which means same time as Terminators, Shunt and 'Gate' moves), and puts an AV12 piece of Line of Sight blocking terrain in their way of shooting. Plus, you disembark the turn you arrive, so Purifiers aren't limited in what they can do (ie they can move+shoot+charge the turn after they arrive).

I have a purifier bomb list that I use for tournaments. It also also rhinos (and even scouts!) It's not always a good idea to drop purifiers in someones DZ. That list is all about flexibility.

No its really not. Equal points in any other army will kill them off without much issue.

Maybe I wasn't clear. It's a significant effort to remove all 3 rhinos and purifiers inside.

It's not difficult though, unless you're really new to the game. S6/7 goes into transports, AP2 goes into DK's and Terminators.

I have a plasmagun, who should it go into? It's strength 7, so I should fire it at a transport, but it's also AP2, so I should fire it at a dreadknight or terminators. By the rules you just set forth for target priority, there's already a conflict. And what about necrons? They don't exactly have a lot of low AP shooting. Do they just not shoot at things with 2+ saves? It's beginning to look like target priority might be a little more complicated than you think.

No, and I'm not claiming I have. I'm simply saying that relying on your opponent not having hard-counters, or being a bad player, is not a winning strategy. No one goes to the competitive level of the game thinking 'haha no one takes S6/7 spam, so my mech army is invincible!'. They realise it's an issue they're bound to face, and plan accordingly.

First, if I steered this thread towards competitive viability of purifiers in a rhino, then I'm sorry. Competitively level play, and FLGS level play are rarely the same thing.

Good players don't make any less or more mistakes IMO, they're just more aware of it, and how to improve. Bad players are actually the worst at understanding they've even made a mistake. You need to be at a certain level of skill to even understand some of the mistakes in 40k. It goes beyond list-building, and feeds into actual decisions you make in a game. It's not a thing you ever stop learning either. Editions and armies change, as do trends. I'm still not at the level of skill I'd wanna be, but I'm aware of it, and I seek to improve.

I would say a smart player should be more aware of their mistakes, while a good player should make less, or at the very least recover quicker from the mistakes they made.

Broadsides would need a fair amount of luck to do that. First you have to declare all of a units targets first, then roll to hit, etc. So you can't fire one, see what happens, then fire another. Also, I generally see braodsides with EWO instead of target locks, but that could just be my meta.

(shrug) I'm just saying, they have options. If the Tau player has the marker hits on all three targets to do it, he may go for it. If not, he might just settle for destroying 2 and making the last one deadmeat next turn. And yeah, I commonly see EWO to provide anti-Flyer tech, but I've seen Split Fire used before to great effect. Tau are one of the premier armies in the game because they have one of the most extensive ranged arsenals in the game, mounted on durable and flexible platforms. They have a tonne of options to destroy us. We largely don't. That said, once we hit melee it's the compete opposite. All their fancy technology and guns melts to our nemesis weaponry and psychic powers. It's why it's such a lopsided matchup for both armies. If the Tau player can fend off your assaults with smart choices and trades, he can just shoot you dead. If you manage to alpha-strike effectively and remove their ability to slay you at will (or at least partially cripple it), you have the initiative.

Meh, I'm not sure I would call tau a premiere army anymore. 7th really took a lot of wind out of their sails. They're still a solid shooting army, but no where near as scary as they were in 6th.

I don't know what to say. If you're ignoring the things that are about to crash into your line I'm not going to complain.

But they're not ignoring them. They're shooting your DK's and Terminators with AP2. More and more, I see Crisis having a resurgence in Tau for this precise reason. It's not just us who have scary fast MC's who tear Riptides to shreds, Daemons and even Eldar can do the same. It depends on the list if they go double plasma rifle, plasma+fusion, or double fusion (note I'm saying 'double', because they're not twin-linked anymore). But they can take apart at least one DK fairly reliably, sometimes two if their dice are hot. Then you eat Supporting Fire Overwatch in your Assault phase as well, don't forget.

Well, BS3 is hardly reliable and since this tau army used markerlights to remove cover from all 3 of my purifier rhinos, I don't think there are many more to fire at the dreadknights/terminators. And without markerlights, those crisis suits are going to have a much harder time them, especially if my psychic defenses are up. We can go round-and-round like this all day if you'd like. In this scenario, the target priority problem comes from where to fire the markerlights. Does the tau player want ensure the vehicles destruction by scouring their cover? Or do they want better odds of dropping a dreadknight and therefore use their markerlights to raise BS? Maybe a little from column A, and a little from column B?

Then why not drop pods? They do everything you want your Rhinos to do, but better. They're also hitting the table Turn 1 (you always go either 1 pod in an Allied detachment, or 3 in a CAD detachment, to maximise first turn landings), and they eat Interceptor very well, which helps with Terminator and even Raven delivery.

Drop pods and rhinos are different animals entirely, with only a storm bolter and point cost in commmon. I'm not denying the usefulness of stormravens, drop pods, or any other method of delivery you enjoy. I'm merely stating that the humble rhino is up to the task.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Adepticon is one of the wargaming conventions in the world (second only to Salute, I believe) and has many of the top 40k players in the US, if not the world competing in the 40k championship. My local tournaments feature the best players in my area. Which do you think is more relevant to me? If the adepticon top 8 is what your local meta features in both army composition and skill level then I feel for you. You have to understand though, that's not everyone's experience. Most 40k players don't play competitively, and those that do usually only do so at the local level.

I'm simply making the point that all our local meta has their own unique quirks and weirdness. Apparently no one knows how to deal with mech or PA in yours. In mine, I've got people who started back in Rogue Trader, all the way to people who got into the game after Tau dropped in 6th (ie that was the draw). My point is, just because such things don't happen locally doesn't mean they don't happen at all. That's why I prefer to talk about broader meta trends, rather than just what happens incidentally. I'm fortunate I fight not just competitive builds, but all kinds in between. Even the same players switch up their lists or even faction for fun, they get bored of their guaranteed wins too.

You could shoot through it, but the point of bubble wrap is to prevent you from being able to get into melta range, which is what I assumed you were talking about. bubble wrapping really works best for avoiding alpha strikes. Any turn afterwards, and yes, there are a myriad of ways to get through it.

Why would you need meltaguns to kill AV11? You need S6/7, and by the barrel. That's how you efficiently kill light AV and transports, since at least 5th edition (which didn't even have HP I might add).

Obviously, you've never played deathwing before . I may not have mentioned it in this thread, but I generally play with allies. They help fill my need for cheap scoring units. Which helps when I play such an offensive GK army.

Deathwing haven't been a thing since...5th? I'm actually not sure when they dropped off the map, it's been that long. Actually, they're still better than us in survivability terms at least, due to storm shields on everyone except the special weapon+chainfist guy. They pay through the nose for it though, which is why in general terms they're actually worse. But they eat AP2 a lot better, I'll give them that.

The possibility of a save is better than never getting one at all. Obviously, I don't believe that hiding behind some shrubs is going to keep my rhinos alive forever.

And the certainty of delivering Purifiers into enemy lines Turn 1 or Turn 2 is even better.

I never said I play deathstar IG. When I said friend, I wasn't coyly referring to myself. I actually avoid using deathstars, as I find MSU a much more rewarding experience for me. 5 purifers with 2 psycannons in a rhino is 190pts. That's cheaper than a stormraven. Just by adding 5 purifiers with no upgrades to go inside the stormraven, you're now 50% more than my purifiers in their rhino. What happens when my rhino pops? The guys get out, and something else has to shoot them. What happens to purifers in a raven when it goes down while zooming? The flyer explodes, and most (if not all) the occupants die. I don't even see how this can be a comparison when the consequences of losing one is far worse than the consequences of losing the other. I'm not knocking your use of stormravens and purifiers, but the risk to reward ratio doesn't seem worth it to me.

Oh okay, fair enough. Thought you were being indirect. No worries

I already said Rhino MSU is cheaper. But it's not better. There is a distinction to be made there.

When the Rhino pops, the Purifiers are dead meat in the mid field, scrambling to get into just weapon range, nevermind 'Cleansing Flame' range. They're stranded and useless. As for having another unit shoot them, why do you think gunline armies take multiples of everything? Redundancy is a thing in 40k, not just for us.

I accept you don't want Ravens then. If not that, I suggest drop pods. Same price (relatively speaking, as I think BA or SW aren't deadweight but actually add to the list in net terms if you do it right), Turn 1 guaranteed, AV12 (same as the Raven actually), don't care if it dies because it's done its job of eating Interceptor shots.

I have a purifier bomb list that I use for tournaments. It also also rhinos (and even scouts!) It's not always a good idea to drop purifiers in someones DZ. That list is all about flexibility.

Why isn't it a good idea? It solves all your problems in one fell swoop. Bang, Turn 1 you cast 'Cleansing Flame' and you're neck deep in their DZ, hitting as many targets as possible. That's the definition of alpha-strike, and I know of at least three competitive armies that would lose their minds having that happen to them. What's even more hilarious is that by using pods, you allow Purifiers to actually use 'Rites'. Which means a Run move to get into Shooting range, after you've 'Cleansing Flamed' them.

Maybe I wasn't clear. It's a significant effort to remove all 3 rhinos and purifiers inside.

It really isn't. We're talking about an edition where IG Mech, which is vastly superior, is considered second-string by IG players. Because of how much absurd death they endure in this meta. 3x AV11 hulls isn't a threat, it's lunch.

I have a plasmagun, who should it go into? It's strength 7, so I should fire it at a transport, but it's also AP2, so I should fire it at a dreadknight or terminators. By the rules you just set forth for target priority, there's already a conflict. And what about necrons? They don't exactly have a lot of low AP shooting. Do they just not shoot at things with 2+ saves? It's beginning to look like target priority might be a little more complicated than you think.

Obviously you fire the plasma gun at Terminators and DK's.

Necrons have Wraiths to deal with DK's and Terminators. Wraiths with 4+ Rez Protocols I might add (going down to a 5+ against DK's due to S10, and the same if you turn on 'Force' on your infantry prior to getting charged, which helps). It's true that Necrons lack AP2 though, it is one of the few things their Shooting phase doesn't do. They do have AP3 though. Also, they can tarpit our Terminators pretty effectively in Warrior blobs, and they can spam S4 and S5 from their infantry (and S6 blasts from Tomb Blades, who are now very viable and actually core to Decurion builds).

First, if I steered this thread towards competitive viability of purifiers in a rhino, then I'm sorry. Competitively level play, and FLGS level play are rarely the same thing.

Well, we're discussing how to use Purifiers in general, not just where you play. And they are the same, when you think about it.

I would say a smart player should be more aware of their mistakes, while a good player should make less, or at the very least recover quicker from the mistakes they made.

Should is not the same as does. And yeah, over time you learn how to recover from bad decisions, or turn a mistake into a winning move (ie a failed assault can be turned into a trade, or a bit of clever positioning for a more successful charge etc). Doesn't change the fact we're human, and we will always be at risk of screwing up.

Meh, I'm not sure I would call tau a premiere army anymore. 7th really took a lot of wind out of their sails. They're still a solid shooting army, but no where near as scary as they were in 6th.

I don't know what to say. If you're ignoring the things that are about to crash into your line I'm not going to complain.

Tournament results would disagree with you. They still are a strong contender, Nids are on a roll at the moment though (probably because they can print free Troops without needing psychic powers or the unique disadvantages of Daemons, they have strong MC roster to cover most matchups, they dominate the skies like few other armies can etc). It's like saying Eldar have dropped off. They haven't, they're just not placing as no.1, Nids are.

Well, BS3 is hardly reliable and since this tau army used markerlights to remove cover from all 3 of my purifier rhinos, I don't think there are many more to fire at the dreadknights/terminators. And without markerlights, those crisis suits are going to have a much harder time them, especially if my psychic defenses are up. We can go round-and-round like this all day if you'd like. In this scenario, the target priority problem comes from where to fire the markerlights. Does the tau player want ensure the vehicles destruction by scouring their cover? Or do they want better odds of dropping a dreadknight and therefore use their markerlights to raise BS? Maybe a little from column A, and a little from column B?

Tau don't fire at BS3, unless you've literally killed every last markerlight. Most Tau lists are rocking at least two sources of markers, usually the drone swarm too (to mitigate the awfulness of Pathfinders, and the limited output of the still amazing Skyray, who is their premier anti-transport and anti-Flyer platform). So yeah, they can strip cover saves AND still boost to BS5 on key stuff. Not that they usually have to, BS4 is enough on Broadsides (twin-linked everything, 8 shots each...). As you say, we can theoryhammer all day, but I'm pointing out it's not an unlikely scenario. Tau do absurd things in the Shooting phase, do not underestimate their prowess. They have options, we don't, and you should not rely on player inexperience or bad lists to get around that.

Drop pods and rhinos are different animals entirely, with only a storm bolter and point cost in commmon. I'm not denying the usefulness of stormravens, drop pods, or any other method of delivery you enjoy. I'm merely stating that the humble rhino is up to the task.

But it isn't, against any army you wanna name, Ravens have more uses and survivability, whereas drop pods cost the same (in net terms, I know about HQ+Troops tax to unlock them, but that HQ+Troops is usually pulling its own weight anyway) but do everything the Rhino does faster and more reliably. The Rhino is outclassed, and the meta game currently hates on light AV and transports. I mean, we're talking about a game where Knight-Titans are accounted for and planned for. How will a few puny AV11 chassis do in that environment?