Purifiers

[Prot]

Speaking of Purifiers, does anyone consider them a top tier unit from the codex. Yes, I know they are nice on paper but it seems this conversation has focused down to rhino's vs Stormraven, thus the issue is delivery not necessarily 'is the unit any good?'

 

I am thinking the (humble) rhino is somewhat plausible because NDK's bother opponents so much, however I think you need a minimum of 2. But now you're dedicating ~70 points to carboard boxes moving precious cargo.

 

Alternatively, you seem to trade one 'evil' for another going from Rhino to Stormraven. Do you risk having your precious cargo (let's say the same 10 purifiers that would be in your 2 rhino's are now stuck in a Stormraven). Is this risk preferable to rhino survivability? 

 

I prefer not to ally so my next logical thought was adding a Comms relay. Now I'm throwing... another ~70pts at -trying- to get the Stormraven in for turn 2. Not to mention the Teleport homing device expense.

 

At what point is it actually better to discount rhino issues in favour of the Stormraven? Yes the Stormraven is going to give you other advantages, but I imagine not until it drops its cargo off. 

 

I'm kind of divided on this. I see merits to both methods. I prefer duplicating things.... hence the dual rhino dual 5 man purifier idea. I feel similar about the Stormraven, however points start to go through the roof. I don't think there is an easy choice in this one. :/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Speaking of Purifiers, does anyone consider them a top tier unit from the codex. Yes, I know they are nice on paper but it seems this conversation has focused down to rhino's vs Stormraven, thus the issue is delivery not necessarily 'is the unit any good?'

 

They're our best PA squad, no contest. So yes, definitely top tier choice. Delivery matters though, because being in PA is the issue (they die too easily, and they really wanna be at close range to 'Cleansing Flame' and charge stuff to leverage their melee ability). 

Speaking of Purifiers, does anyone consider them a top tier unit from the codex. Yes, I know they are nice on paper but it seems this conversation has focused down to rhino's vs Stormraven, thus the issue is delivery not necessarily 'is the unit any good?'

 

Which is precisely the problem, you end up spending a lot of points on delivery that doesn't work the way you want. 

Alternatively, you seem to trade one 'evil' for another going from Rhino to Stormraven. Do you risk having your precious cargo (let's say the same 10 purifiers that would be in your 2 rhino's are now stuck in a Stormraven). Is this risk preferable to rhino survivability? 

 

It's a judgement call. If you think you can keep the Raven alive the turn it arrives (ie the enemy doesn't have significant Interceptor and/or Skyfire), it's solid gold. If they do have a lot of AA to kill it with, probably not. 

I prefer not to ally so my next logical thought was adding a Comms relay. Now I'm throwing... another ~70pts at -trying- to get the Stormraven in for turn 2. Not to mention the Teleport homing device expense.

 

Well remember, the Comms Array is 70pts to also ensure your entire NSF arrives Turn 1. That's well worth it, certainly more than 2 Rhinos. 

 

At what point is it actually better to discount rhino issues in favour of the Stormraven? Yes the Stormraven is going to give you other advantages, but I imagine not until it drops its cargo off. 

 

 

Wrong. Raven can shoot the turn it arrives, and you can dump out the Purifiers using its 'Shadow Skies' rule (or whatever it's called nowadays, they keep changing it). If you taking a locator beacon on it, you can even dump them out with no scatter ;) . 

I'm kind of divided on this. I see merits to both methods. I prefer duplicating things.... hence the dual rhino dual 5 man purifier idea. I feel similar about the Stormraven, however points start to go through the roof. I don't think there is an easy choice in this one. :/

 

If you don't feel comfortable taking the Raven, take Allied drop pods instead. 

[IndigoJack]

I'm simply making the point that all our local meta has their own unique quirks and weirdness. Apparently no one knows how to deal with mech or PA in yours. In mine, I've got people who started back in Rogue Trader, all the way to people who got into the game after Tau dropped in 6th (ie that was the draw). My point is, just because such things don't happen locally doesn't mean they don't happen at all. That's why I prefer to talk about broader meta trends, rather than just what happens incidentally. I'm fortunate I fight not just competitive builds, but all kinds in between. Even the same players switch up their lists or even faction for fun, they get bored of their guaranteed wins too.

If you want to see broader trends, you're not going to find them at the top of tournaments. The top is where you find that skill > list. Look more toward to middle of the pack, and you'll see what the real meta looks like. Middle is where you find players using their list to make up for short comings in their skills. What are these guaranteed lists you fight that make you so afraid to even bring a rhino to your gaming group? I honestly want to know. Specifics please though, I don't want to see, "pretty much all tau" as I've fought that before, and I win more often than I lose.

 

Why would you need meltaguns to kill AV11? You need S6/7, and by the barrel. That's how you efficiently kill light AV and transports, since at least 5th edition (which didn't even have HP I might add).

We were talking about IG remember? The bubble wrap was to protect their russes from melta, which is what most armies use as an answer to AV13/14.

 

Deathwing haven't been a thing since...5th? I'm actually not sure when they dropped off the map, it's been that long. Actually, they're still better than us in survivability terms at least, due to storm shields on everyone except the special weapon+chainfist guy. They pay through the nose for it though, which is why in general terms they're actually worse. But they eat AP2 a lot better, I'll give them that.

Again, I'm really beginning to think you play in some kind of weird hyper-competitive meta, in that if your list wasn't in the top 10% of any tournament in the past year, you should probably concede if you don't get first turn. Deathwing have a lot of bad match-ups, but they also have a lot of match-ups that work well for them. You're probably not going to see them at any top tournaments anytime soon, but they at the very least they are a spoiler army, in that there are more than a few armies that simply can't handle 36 terminators.

 

And the certainty of delivering Purifiers into enemy lines Turn 1 or Turn 2 is even better.

Are you still talking about drop pods and ravens here? I already admitted to using drop pod purifiers in another list, and I've already made my case about ravens.

 

I already said Rhino MSU is cheaper. But it's not better. There is a distinction to be made there. 

 

When the Rhino pops, the Purifiers are dead meat in the mid field, scrambling to get into just weapon range, nevermind 'Cleansing Flame' range. They're stranded and useless. As for having another unit shoot them, why do you think gunline armies take multiples of everything? Redundancy is a thing in 40k, not just for us.

If my rhino popped and I'm midfield, I'm probably already where I want to be. 24" may not be able to reach across the field from your DZ, but if your midfield you're likely going to have reach to a lot of things. And if they die before they get to do anything, than so be it. That's the nature of the game. This is not the case against all armies and all opponents though. This has not been my experience against most armies, and unless someone's gaming group is dominated by serpent spam and whatever tau list you seem to destroy everyone at your group, at least most of your rhinos are going to perform their job.

 

I accept you don't want Ravens then. If not that, I suggest drop pods. Same price (relatively speaking, as I think BA or SW aren't deadweight but actually add to the list in net terms if you do it right), Turn 1 guaranteed, AV12 (same as the Raven actually), don't care if it dies because it's done its job of eating Interceptor shots.

If you're going to reply, can you please read my whole post before doing so? I mention my use of drop pods just below this. Also, no one is going to intercept the drop pod. they're going to intercept the guys that just got out.

 

Why isn't it a good idea? It solves all your problems in one fell swoop. Bang, Turn 1 you cast 'Cleansing Flame' and you're neck deep in their DZ, hitting as many targets as possible. That's the definition of alpha-strike, and I know of at least three competitive armies that would lose their minds having that happen to them. What's even more hilarious is that by using pods, you allow Purifiers to actually use 'Rites'. Which means a Run move to get into Shooting range, after you've 'Cleansing Flamed' them.

Any vehicle with only one facing at AV11 or lower is just going to put their butt against the back of the board. If it's eldar, the next turn their going to turbo-boost away and spend the rest of the game avoiding you before jumping onto an objective before the game ends. Necrons are going to counter-assault you with something to give them time to get away. If you go first against another drop pod army, they're going to come down after you and alpha strike you. Any assault army with enough durability is going to thank you for bringing your army to them. There are probably more examples, but I hope you get the idea here. Drop pods are not a bad idea, they are quite the opposite, but not always so. That's why I also have rhinos. Flexibility is what gives that list such a strong edge, not just the potential alpha strike.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear. It's a significant effort to remove all 3 rhinos and purifiers inside.

It really isn't. We're talking about an edition where IG Mech, which is vastly superior, is considered second-string by IG players. Because of how much absurd death they endure in this meta. 3x AV11 hulls isn't a threat, it's lunch.

 

I left the quote for you. I didn't say just 3 rhinos. I said AND the purifiers inside. Seriously, post this tau list. I know lots of tau players, I'm sure at least one of them has the models to run it against me.

 

Obviously you fire the plasma gun at Terminators and DK's. 

 

Necrons have Wraiths to deal with DK's and Terminators. Wraiths with 4+ Rez Protocols I might add (going down to a 5+ against DK's due to S10, and the same if you turn on 'Force' on your infantry prior to getting charged, which helps). It's true that Necrons lack AP2 though, it is one of the few things their Shooting phase doesn't do. They do have AP3 though. Also, they can tarpit our Terminators pretty effectively in Warrior blobs, and they can spam S4 and S5 from their infantry (and S6 blasts from Tomb Blades, who are now very viable and actually core to Decurion builds).

Warriors are not a great tarpit. Between force and hammerhand, it's not too hard to break their morale. Wraiths don't come with RA either, they first need to be decurion, then in the canoptek harvest formation, and then it has to be given to them by a spyder who has to be 12" away. If you can drop the spyder turn 1 before he gives it out (gatling psilencer has a 45% of doing it), the wraiths won't have RA. Wraiths are still going to struggle with dreadknights. a full unit has 24 attacks on the charge, that's 12 hits, 6 wounds, and only one of those will be rending. Add in that a dreadknight is going to pop slightly less than one wraith (even with RA) and that combat is going to happen for a while. I'm not complaining though, I'd love for wraiths to tarpit a dreadknight, as that means one of the nastier units in the book is out of the game for a while. This is a clear example of poor target priority. Scarabs are a much better tarpit against a dreadknight, as a decently sized unit is going to take a while to get rid of. Will they kill me? probably not, but a cheap unit just took out one of my heavy hitters for several turns.

 

Well, we're discussing how to use Purifiers in general, not just where you play. And they are the same, when you think about it.

Tournament level competitive games are not the norm in any FLGS I've played at, and I've played at several across the US. If we're going to talk about worse case scenario every time, we might as shelf our models permanently. There's no point in trying to find an avenue for success if every opponent plays a power combo, always has first turn, and has a hard counter to everything we do. We should also sticky a thread to the top, telling everyone to abandon all hope, ye who enter here, GK are just the worst!

 

Should is not the same as does. And yeah, over time you learn how to recover from bad decisions, or turn a mistake into a winning move (ie a failed assault can be turned into a trade, or a bit of clever positioning for a more successful charge etc). Doesn't change the fact we're human, and we will always be at risk of screwing up.

Less mistakes is not the same as no mistakes. Frequency of errors is a good metric for determining skill level. Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone makes them frequently.

 

Tournament results would disagree with you. They still are a strong contender, Nids are on a roll at the moment though (probably because they can print free Troops without needing psychic powers or the unique disadvantages of Daemons, they have strong MC roster to cover most matchups, they dominate the skies like few other armies can etc). It's like saying Eldar have dropped off. They haven't, they're just not placing as no.1, Nids are.

Read this article on army stats from adepticon. Tau are a clear middle of the pack in terms of win ratio. Also, there were no tau at the top 8 for either adepticon or LVO. Tau are one of those armies that require a little skill to be decent at, but a lot of skill to be good at. That's the reason tau became so popular after 6th, the skill barrier to win games with it is lower than most armies.

 

 

Tau don't fire at BS3, unless you've literally killed every last markerlight. Most Tau lists are rocking at least two sources of markers, usually the drone swarm too (to mitigate the awfulness of Pathfinders, and the limited output of the still amazing Skyray, who is their premier anti-transport and anti-Flyer platform). So yeah, they can strip cover saves AND still boost to BS5 on key stuff. Not that they usually have to, BS4 is enough on Broadsides (twin-linked everything, 8 shots each...). As you say, we can theoryhammer all day, but I'm pointing out it's not an unlikely scenario. Tau do absurd things in the Shooting phase, do not underestimate their prowess. They have options, we don't, and you should not rely on player inexperience or bad lists to get around that.

I thought in this hypothetical scenario that the tau used markerlights to remove cover from my rhinos? How many markerlight sources do you see? I usually see one or two strong ones (4 or more on a durable platform that shoots either twin-linked or at BS higher than 3), and two, maybe three weaker sources (2 shots or less, on a platform with BS3 or worse). I do not underestimate tau's ability to shoot. I am well aware of all of their capabilities, which is one of the reasons I can beat them. If you're getting an impression that tau roll over and die, that's not what I'm trying to say. I fight tooth and nail to beat most players, and it's a game of brutal attrition. I do win more than I lose though.

 

But it isn't, against any army you wanna name, Ravens have more uses and survivability, whereas drop pods cost the same (in net terms, I know about HQ+Troops tax to unlock them, but that HQ+Troops is usually pulling its own weight anyway) but do everything the Rhino does faster and more reliably. The Rhino is outclassed, and the meta game currently hates on light AV and transports. I mean, we're talking about a game where Knight-Titans are accounted for and planned for. How will a few puny AV11 chassis do in that environment?

Biggest difference; rhinos are going to at least soak one unit of shooting before the guys inside get hurt. If I went first, my rhinos are where they need to be for turn 2. What happens to the guys inside are up to what my opponent decides to do and the dice gods. If I go second, hopefully I get to deploy second, and am able to put my rhinos in the least vulnerable position as possible. Knights have many counters, not every army has to go, "I need all the shooting to deal with that!" Knights are weak to flyers, so my meta has seen an uptake in them as a hard counter. It's another reason why I see the stormraven as a liability over an asset for purifiers. Knights are also susceptible to tarpits. I watched a 50man conscript blob with a priest hold down an errant for 5 rounds of combat.

 

 

Speaking of Purifiers, does anyone consider them a top tier unit from the codex. Yes, I know they are nice on paper but it seems this conversation has focused down to rhino's vs Stormraven, thus the issue is delivery not necessarily 'is the unit any good?'

 

I am thinking the (humble) rhino is somewhat plausible because NDK's bother opponents so much, however I think you need a minimum of 2. But now you're dedicating ~70 points to carboard boxes moving precious cargo.

 

Alternatively, you seem to trade one 'evil' for another going from Rhino to Stormraven. Do you risk having your precious cargo (let's say the same 10 purifiers that would be in your 2 rhino's are now stuck in a Stormraven). Is this risk preferable to rhino survivability? 

 

I prefer not to ally so my next logical thought was adding a Comms relay. Now I'm throwing... another ~70pts at -trying- to get the Stormraven in for turn 2. Not to mention the Teleport homing device expense.

 

At what point is it actually better to discount rhino issues in favour of the Stormraven? Yes the Stormraven is going to give you other advantages, but I imagine not until it drops its cargo off. 

 

I'm kind of divided on this. I see merits to both methods. I prefer duplicating things.... hence the dual rhino dual 5 man purifier idea. I feel similar about the Stormraven, however points start to go through the roof. I don't think there is an easy choice in this one. :/

Are purifiers top-tier? That's a good question. Purifiers can be very shooty, they add 2WC, they can assault well enough, and even tarpit with fearless. On the downside, their more expensive than sternguard, and sometimes not as effective.

 

If you're taking purifiers armed toward assault, I wouldn't recommend the rhino. You have to reach your opponent, get out, survive shooting (since your an imminent threat, they're probably going to shoot you), then assault. If too many of your models died, the assault may not carry the weight you want. The best advice I can give, is playtest it out and see what works for you. The whole reason I'm in this debate is that I don't want someone to come to this thread, read the advice given, and outright dismiss something that could work, because someone else said it was bad. I feel like half the reason we see so many mono-builds is that a lot of people have outright dismissed a lot of ideas, further shrinking their already small pool of possibilities.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Tournament results would disagree with you. They still are a strong contender, Nids are on a roll at the moment though (probably because they can print free Troops without needing psychic powers or the unique disadvantages of Daemons, they have strong MC roster to cover most matchups, they dominate the skies like few other armies can etc). It's like saying Eldar have dropped off. They haven't, they're just not placing as no.1, Nids are. 

 

 

Is this some thing in the Australian meta going on? Because Tau are decidedly average in big tournaments elsewhere, you mentioned Adepticon and the stats got posted here http://www.torrentoffire.com/6866/adepticon-army-breakdown-stats-stats-stats showing Tau as almost exactly average. GK continue to put in far stronger showings than Tau at the big tournaments, except in your local meta it would seem.

 

All I can say for Tau - having watched a lot of competitive games in the Schools league - is that inexperienced players who do not understand the game make basic mistakes against them and get their butt kicked good and proper. That is just losing through bad play.

[Prot]

I agree the Castle and Shoot is something that inexperienced players struggle to face. I won't call them 'bad' players because anything you don't see or deal with often can make you look 'bad'. I mean a lot of the game is simply understanding your opponent's army, right?

 

I mentioned the local Tau guy earlier. I'll be honest, many people wanted to face him in my group, but many groaned when we randomly select opponents (This is how we prevent list tailoring).... 

 

The last time I completely pants'd him was with Belial and my Deathwing... believe it or not. With a Precision deep strike and twin linking a 10 man tight deepstrike into the heart of his HQ, I carefully positioned my Deep strike so he was forced to roll a TON of Look Out Fish rolls.

 

Now for every Look out Fish he passed, he had a 2+ save, but math is math, and the big tuna fell over. He was so disheartened, it was like a fast fish fry after that.

 

I didn't lose much to him but I always had those moments as an assault player where assaulting him felt as useful as a white crayon. The overwatch was stupid.... 

 

Inevitably if you have the right tools and the experience, that's great. But it's not an easy match up for me. 

 

As an aside the Tau guy in question always Netlisted. I liked him, but he had very little personal creativity. It all came from tournament lists... and he was fairly competitive. He became disgruntled and quit.... this is a looong time player I'm talking about. He just up and quit the game. Period.

 

I miss him personally. I always like having 'that guy' in the group. It kept everyone on their toes.

 

Back to Purifiers. this will be it for me... 5 more added to the list. My first test was a total flop. I won't make more than 10, and the good news is this will coincide with the ETL 2015.