Legions relationship with Terran marines....

[recon0321]

So I was wondering were their any legions where Terran marines still played a important role within the legion....every legions seems to disguard them after they are reunited with their primarch...

[Slips]

Some Legions, such as the Imperial Fists, had flawless integration between Terran and non-Terran Marines to the point where it was not even worthy of distinction.

 

For some Others, such as the Death Guard, they could occupy high ranks such as Calas Typhon (Terran IIRC) who was First Captain.

 

In Most Traitors, they were purged because they were more often than not Loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium before their Primarch and Legion and could not be 100% counted on to turn traitor when the time came.

 

In Cases like the Raven Guard they were polar opposites such as RG Terrans being essentially War Hounds/World Eaters (to keep it simple) vs the Stealthy penchant'd Deliverance Marines.

 

Depends on the Legion. But to keep it super simple and general:

 

Traitors: Killed off due to Loyalty to the Emperor > Primarch

Loyalists: Near Flawless Integration (NB: Raven Guard). Either old positions were kept prior to Primarch Arrival (barring overall Legion Command ie: Imperial Fists) or was turned into a meritocracy that paid no heed to the marines origins.

[Marshal Rohr]

Terrans tended to have a harder time integrating with the more insular cultures. 

[Arac]

I think the I. Legion is worth a look. The mixed army of Terrans/early Calibans remained loyal (supposedly) while the later Calibans turned Traitor.

[spu00sed]

I think the I. Legion is worth a look. The mixed army of Terrans/early Calibans remained loyal (supposedly) while the later Calibans turned Traitor.

Only some of the first legion turned traitor?

[Brofist]

Interestingly, Terrans were treated no differently than others in the IV legion. In general everyone was seen as an Iron Warrior first. A lot of the fluff makes it sound like a meritocracy, which isn't surprising from a legion known for pragmatism.

 

Within the Iron Warriors Legion Perturabo's word was law. To him there was never any differences between Terran and Olympian; all were his Iron Warriors, grist for the bloody mill of war.

[The Eponymous M]

I'm not sure this can even be looked at on a Legion by Legion basis; the World Eaters appear to have integrated well (Khârn being Terran) whilst Astelan of the Dark Angels appears to have been at loggerheads with the Calibanite captain sent to shadow him immediately, yet other 1st Legion squads of mixed background appear to be working well together.

 

"Scars" (IIRC) makes reference to Terrans disliking the change in character of the Legion and this acting to boost the lodge membership within the Legion.

 

I would imagine that any Legion could suffer issue, especially if Terrans felt that marines from the new planet were being promoted ahead of them based on their homeworld instead of merit. I imagine having someone with relatively little experience being promoted over you due to having bro-fisted your biological sire during his adolescence must be somewhat galling.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Some Legions, such as the Imperial Fists, had flawless integration between Terran and non-Terran Marines to the point where it was not even worthy of distinction.

For some Others, such as the Death Guard, they could occupy high ranks such as Calas Typhon (Terran IIRC) who was First Captain.

In Most Traitors, they were purged because they were more often than not Loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium before their Primarch and Legion and could not be 100% counted on to turn traitor when the time came.

In Cases like the Raven Guard they were polar opposites such as RG Terrans being essentially War Hounds/World Eaters (to keep it simple) vs the Stealthy penchant'd Deliverance Marines.

Depends on the Legion. But to keep it super simple and general:

Traitors: Killed off due to Loyalty to the Emperor > Primarch

Loyalists: Near Flawless Integration (NB: Raven Guard). Either old positions were kept prior to Primarch Arrival (barring overall Legion Command ie: Imperial Fists) or was turned into a meritocracy that paid no heed to the marines origins.

You're wrong about Typhon I'm afraid, he was most certainly from Barbarus. If you want Traitor first Captains though, there's still Khârn and Ahriman .

As for the Traitor/Loyalist split within Legions, it's far from set in stone along Terran/Primarch native lines. Of the 4 Legions we have firm info on (the Istvaan III ones), it was only the Death Guard who were heavily split along Terran=Loyalist lines, and even then Betrayal suggests that may have been more of a case of Motarion's lack of trust rather than his men not being willing to follow him.

Then you consider Legions like the IW and NL, both of which are noted to have near flawless integration of Terran veterans and new recruits. Which contrasts with the RG whose Terrans did not have good time when Corax was found. I'd also expect the DAs and SWs to be closer to the RG (though probably not as extreme),as Betrayal notes both these Legions experienced major culture shifts once reunited with their Primarchs.

So really there aren't any overall trends about Terran influence amongst the Legiones Astartes as a whole. You have some Legions (IF, IW, WE) that don't really make a distinction. Some that cease to recruits Terrans (DG, SW, Salamanders), but the veterans remain in various levels of influence. It's all on an individual Legion by Legion basis.

[Flint13]

^^ Eh unfortunately the Terran integration into the VIIIth legion was pretty far from flawless.

 

There were marked differences and divisions between them throughout the Horus Heresy fluff. Zso Sahaal is probably the most famous of those, who arguably caused a lot of the division in the legion post-Kurze and Sevatar when he attempted to seize (his self assumed) de facto first captaincy.

 

A little farther down the chain of command, the last of the Terran legionaries was supposedly killed in the drop site massacre, his body displaying most of the wounds to the back of his terminator plate.

[Leif Bearclaw]

You seem to be getting your facts crosses a little.

 

I'm primarily going off the FW stuff in massacre, where it's stated that the reunification of Curze with the VIII seemed to change the Legion little, and while some superficial changes eventually crept in (like the use of Nostaman language and customs) "these changes, though noticeable, did not touch the heart of the VIIIth Legion's nature".

 

As for Sahaal, he was legitimately first captain after the disappearance/death of Sevatar, and was certainly favoured by Curze in the Kyroptera, but the Atramentar didn't follow him because he wasn't Sevatar, although many of them were also Terrans (source: third book in the NL trilogy). It gets more fuzzy post Curze's death, when he tried to claim the Crown and rule the entire Legion. But really, the split cannot be blamed on Sahaal, the VIII was always a barely controlled coterie of murderous scum, it was always going to fall apart without the unifying presence of a Primarch. I doubt even Sevatar could have held the entire Legion together with Curze.

 

You're also mixing things up about the state of Terrans in the Legion's lower ranks. I assume the drop site massacre example you brought up refers to Uros Kastax (page 102 Massacre). He can inferred to be Nostroman, as he's a survivor of the Succoth Perfidity, "a battle which cost the 8th Company a fearful toll, inlcuding the last of its Terran Legionaries". So the 8th Company was left without Terrans, not the Legion as a whole. Then there's Talon-Master Vibius of the 22nd Company (page 106) specifically stated to be Terran, who uses the chaos of Istvaan to kill a number of his peers to seize control of the 22nd Company. So there appears tohave been some pro-Nostraman bias in the Legion, but not enough to keep dtermined individuals out of command ranks (unlike in the RG for example).

[Brother Heinrich]

I know "Fear to Tread" specifically talks about seamless Terran integration in the IX Legion. Largely due to the fact that Sanguinius seems to have established a legion free of any cultural influences from Baal. I think the legions with the most cultural influence from their primarch's home world generally had more of a difficult time integrating the Terran components of their legions. 

[Conn Eremon]

The more recent Collected Visions has the Terran and Fenrisian Space Wolves getting along famously, with the command structure having a mostly even mix and many of the 40k unit types actually originating in the Terran Legion (I think either Grey Hunters or Long Fangs).

[depthcharge12]

Dark Angels are a mess right now. 500 assorted marines are sent back to Caliban, including some noted Calibanites.

 

However, the Luon seems to be aloof of the Terran ones.

 

I personally will have my Terran chapters treated like the older brother in the prodigal son parable. Though dutiful to their father, they feel disenfranchised by their younger brother - the Calibanites - who go out and about without reprimand.

 

Said chapters will lead to their 40k counterparts that have a questionable origin.

[recon0321]

Wow I never thought this would spring so many responses thanks! Apparently it is a wide scope of differences between legions...I truly wonder how this will play out within all the legions

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

For the Iron Hands, the Terran Legionaries were essentially used to subjugate the Medusan populace, with formations being sent to take over command of the different Clans to use as recruitment bases. In this way, the Terrans had a permanent bond to Medusan society, and as new Legionaries entered service within the Legion's Clans, the Medusan culture gradually integrated into the Legion.

[DimDim]

 

I think the I. Legion is worth a look. The mixed army of Terrans/early Calibans remained loyal (supposedly) while the later Calibans turned Traitor.

Only some of the first legion turned traitor?

The marines who remained on caliban(led by Luther) when the lion took the rest of his legion on route to istvaan felt betrayed and disfavoured and chose to rebel.

 

On the point of Terran integration, some legion fit better than others. Some legions valued their terrans greatly should they share the same original style of warfare as their primarch, as they were very experienced and had seen bloodshed and sacrifice and made excellent role models and trainers for the many new recruits from their primarchs planet. A great example are the fists, with the terrans taking high roles and mentorship positions such as Sargents.

[Relict]

The four Isstvan III Legions:

 

Sons of Horus - Cthonian culture complete dominated the Legion by the time of the Isstvan III Atrocity. Most, if not all, remaining Terrans were purged during the Atrocity. No named Terrans would appear in the literature later. 

 

World Eaters - No definitive Legion culture since the coming of Angron - the closest thing they had was the simultaneous reverence and hatred of their gene-father. Notable in that the World Eaters never had a fixed homeworld - they recruited from wherever was convenient and used Bodt as only a muster ground. The selection of those condemned to die in the Atrocity was not based on the presence of the Butcher's Nails (as there were precious few such individuals by that point and notably, the last 19 Librarians were not purged) or who was Terran/who was not (Khârn was Terran). 

 

Death Guard - Terrans and Barbarans served largely side-by-side up to the Atrocity. While the likes of Calas Typhon were indeed Barbaran, the divide was more reflected in their specialties. The Death Guard's armored formations were notably dominated by Terrans (armored warfare was not favored by Mortarion, although he did not completely discard it either), some of whom would turn on the Death Guard during the "Veil of Grief" incident during the Atrocity, while the heavy infantry formations (favored by Mortarion), such as the Terminator veterans, were Barbaran. 

 

Emperor's Children - No notable distinction between Terran- and Chemos-born Legionaries prior to the Atrocity. Notable that the Legion was reduced to just 200 members at the coming of Fulgrim, so the influence of Terrans would have been minimal at best. 

[Phoebus]

For some Others, such as the Death Guard, they could occupy high ranks such as Calas Typhon (Terran IIRC) who was First Captain.

 

You're thinking of Nathaniel Garro, formerly Battle-Captain of the Seventh Company of the Death Guard Legion, now in the service of Malcador the Sigillite.  Calas Typhon is a treacherous spawn of Barbarus.

[recon0321]

Ok what about the alpha legion?

[Theis]

The Alpha Legion? Book three suggests all sorts of possibilities. It's possible they were actually hiding in terra for the first century or so of the great crusade. It's possible all that were died, and new ones were created by the time Alpharius / Omegon were found. With the Alpha's, lots of things are possible. No one knows for sure.

 

From what I recall of the Alpha Legion focused Heresy novels, no one alpha legionnaire is called out as being from anywhere in particular.  They're alpha's, even if we're told they're from somewhere, we're probably being lied to.

 

So, terran, non-terran, it really doesn't make a difference. They're all Alpha's, and that's probably where it ends.

 

I mean, did the Alpha's actually purge their ranks at anytime? I don't recall them having done so. It was pretty much, talk to the cabal, and decide that we're all doing this... thing... now. 

[Grim Dog Studios]

I know "Fear to Tread" specifically talks about seamless Terran integration in the IX Legion. Largely due to the fact that Sanguinius seems to have established a legion free of any cultural influences from Baal. I think the legions with the most cultural influence from their primarch's home world generally had more of a difficult time integrating the Terran components of their legions. 

 

I this this is about right. It appears like the majority of the legions that had a cultural identity from their homeworld were the ones that had problems with terrans, whereas those that didn't carry on the cultural identity of their homeworld are the ones with seamless integration. I think the major exception to this rule are the Wolves, whick kept their cultural identity, but also seem to have had a flawless integration between the fenrisian marines and the terrran marines.

[Kizzdougs]

The four Isstvan III Legions:

 

Sons of Horus - Cthonian culture complete dominated the Legion by the time of the Isstvan III Atrocity. Most, if not all, remaining Terrans were purged during the Atrocity. No named Terrans would appear in the literature later. 

 

World Eaters - No definitive Legion culture since the coming of Angron - the closest thing they had was the simultaneous reverence and hatred of their gene-father. Notable in that the World Eaters never had a fixed homeworld - they recruited from wherever was convenient and used Bodt as only a muster ground. The selection of those condemned to die in the Atrocity was not based on the presence of the Butcher's Nails (as there were precious few such individuals by that point and notably, the last 19 Librarians were not purged) or who was Terran/who was not (Khârn was Terran). 

 

Death Guard - Terrans and Barbarans served largely side-by-side up to the Atrocity. While the likes of Calas Typhon were indeed Barbaran, the divide was more reflected in their specialties. The Death Guard's armored formations were notably dominated by Terrans (armored warfare was not favored by Mortarion, although he did not completely discard it either), some of whom would turn on the Death Guard during the "Veil of Grief" incident during the Atrocity, while the heavy infantry formations (favored by Mortarion), such as the Terminator veterans, were Barbaran. 

 

Emperor's Children - No notable distinction between Terran- and Chemos-born Legionaries prior to the Atrocity. Notable that the Legion was reduced to just 200 members at the coming of Fulgrim, so the influence of Terrans would have been minimal at best. 

I think it's mentioned in Betrayal that the noble families of Europa (from which the original Emperor's Children were selected/taken) contributed to rebuilding the Legion after the geneseed incident. It is also noted that other noble families from different Terran dynasties followed the lead of Europa and filled the ranks of the Legion with their sons. Betrayal also mentions that many of the human planets made compliant by the Emperor's Children offered up there sons as tribute. So, I would suggest that there would be a pretty decent Terran contingent in the III Legion, as well as high born sons from many different worlds (although, I think it's fair to say that the majority would be Chemosian). The character of the Legion didn't really change all that much once it was reunited with the Primarch, so there wouldn't really be any cause for a major rift between Terrans and Chemosians. Plus the rigid hierarchy and discipline within the III Legion would have gone some way to mitigating any serious issues.

[Phoebus]

I mean, did the Alpha's actually purge their ranks at anytime? I don't recall them having done so. It was pretty much, talk to the cabal, and decide that we're all doing this... thing... now. 

One might argue that purge is exactly what is going on now between Alpharius, Omegon, and their respective factions.

[spu00sed]

 

I mean, did the Alpha's actually purge their ranks at anytime? I don't recall them having done so. It was pretty much, talk to the cabal, and decide that we're all doing this... thing... now.

 

One might argue that purge is exactly what is going on now between Alpharius, Omegon, and their respective factions.

Shame no one told each marine which faction they belong to. And those who think they know have been lied to.

[shandwen]

 

 

I mean, did the Alpha's actually purge their ranks at anytime? I don't recall them having done so. It was pretty much, talk to the cabal, and decide that we're all doing this... thing... now.

 

One might argue that purge is exactly what is going on now between Alpharius, Omegon, and their respective factions.

Shame no one told each marine which faction they belong to. And those who think they know have been lied to.

The officers seem to know, for the most part. So its about the same as the Dark Angels in loyalty (just the wrong side won?).