Prot Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Let's say you're not really allying that much. Just for the sake of argument... and you've been playing GK for a good amount of time. Do you feel the limitations of the army or do you still find interest in your games, and running lists, with (hopefully) some variables to them? Or do you feel mono-locked into a build? I know I touched on this but I wanted to get the opinion of some longtime players and see what you think. This is my one hesitation with the book as I have to get rid of something. The background, look and feel of the army attract me. Also the heavy use of terminators. So this is a good thing because nearly all lists benefit from Terminators. But there's so much they don't have as part of their inherent codex, and arguably a few units are downright... poor choices period. So here I am building lists, and comparing this to the myriad of choices I had with DA or Ultra... or even Chaos. BUT I remind myself that to some degree these 'choices' can be an illusion for these other codexes as they might be there, but provide very little use in gameplay. So what do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 What limitations? It's sky's the limit, as far as I'm concerned. Got bodies? Check. Got anti-Infantry? Check. Got anti-vehicle? Check. Got anti-air? Check. Got psychic phase? Check. Got monstrous uber units and special-rule shenanigans? Check. Yep, everything is there. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4001996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 anti air? what? you mean raven? that's a flyer too.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Compared to 5th edition, yes the amount of options is a bit stagnant. I change it up as much as I can but there's only so much you can change. So aye this edition is a bit boring Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I generally don't have a problem with the lack of variety in our codex, but that's because I pretty much play the same list. I've played my list over and over until I got really really good at it. Honestly, I just made the first major change in it since september and that's only because I've decided to try something a bit radical instead of the list I've been playing. So while I understand where your coming from, it's not something that I feel affects me, because I'm stubborn and refuse to change Then again, if I want to play something else, I have other armies. You want to see limited options? Try playing pure deathwing! What limitations? It's sky's the limit, as far as I'm concerned. Got bodies? Check. Got anti-Infantry? Check. Got anti-vehicle? Check. Got anti-air? Check. Got psychic phase? Check. Got monstrous uber units and special-rule shenanigans? Check. Yep, everything is there. SJ I think what Prot is suggesting, is that while we have answers, we lack variety, especially when you compare us to the other codexes that popped up with us in 3rd edition (notably, necrons and tau). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Got bodies? Check. What a joke. At best, we put down 30 models, and that's in an infantry heavy list. We have no board presence, our entire army is often 1/3rd the size of an opponents. Got anti-Infantry? Check. Agreed, although infantry clearance is something all armies do well. We do have some nice tech though, with 'Cleansing Flame' and Divination psykers. We're also the least affected by skew armies like Daemons or TDA heavy, as our firepower can cater to both (massed 'Preferred Enemy' shooting breaks invul saves, massed Rending and S4 wears down enemy 2+). Got anti-vehicle? Check. I can sorta agree. We don't have true anti-tank though, we're highly reliant on Rends for dealing with anything AV13 or AV14. But psycannon certainly reks light AV and transports very efficiently, and again we have the shot output to get around shenanigans like Jink stacking (plus 'Perfect Timing' to ignore it if need be). Got anti-air? Check. Only if you bring a Raven. Which, more and more that I play against armies with good Flyer, I'm starting to see as a mandatory pick. We have zero other Skyfire, except on a platform that itself is vulnerable to Interceptor and Skyfire. Also, due to the nature of our army, we rarely take multiples, yet you have to for redundancy. Our lack of alternatives is painfully bad in 7th. Got psychic phase? Check. Somewhat. Daemons and CSM by extension (as they can Ally Daemons to do it for them) can outmatch us in WC spam. That said, 99% of our powers are buffs, so even Daemons need 6's on their Deny attempts to stop our many buff powers going off. The one offensive power we cast, 'Cleansing Flame' is a nova that auto-targets and hits everything in a 9" circle, so unlike most witchfires its incredibly efficient if you can get deep into enemy lines alive (generally requires a Raven, oh hey see a pattern, or an Allied empty drop pod). Got monstrous uber units and special-rule shenanigans? Check. DK's are the only thing you could reasonably say is scary to enemy armies. Everything else we have is PA or TDA, which other armies have been meta-gaming for since at least 3rd edition onwards. DK's suffer from 'best unit in the codex' syndrome, and they're a known quantity. Unlike broken FMC's which (even with 7th edtion nerfs) are arguably stronger, DK's can be shot by AP2 very easily Turn 1 onwards. Which means their actual lifespan on the battlefield is usually 2 turns, 3 if you get into melee. Yep, everything is there. Well firstly, what you listed isn't everything, and secondly we have large gaps missing in our army. Partly by design, partly because GW are a bunch of lazy hacks who basically copy-pasted our 6th edition FAQ into our codex, deleting anything that didn't fit with that cutting-edge design philosophy (along with several characters). In 5th and during 6th, we had access to Henchmen and Inquisitors by default, which meant we could cheaply build firepower and redundancy into our list (scoring and WC too). With their removal, we lost a great deal. We also didn't gain any Skyfire or Interceptor, which is less than even Marines got in their update. Everytime I play GK, I feel like I'm playing a melee army that just happens to shoot decently. That's really what we are. Add in our microscopic model count, and our PA/TDA statlines, and we're basically lambs to the slaughter of Marine hate that is 6th and 7th meta game. Everything people take to hard-counter Marine units, becomes exponentially more effective against us. The only curve ball we really through is DK's, but any AP2 with S7 or higher can reliably damage them too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Varify is the callng of the easily bored. Much like a game of Chess, I enjoy knowing my pieces, what they can do for me, how they work best with each other. If I wanted to build mix and match armies from hundreds of parts, I'd play Legos, or Ultramarines. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Varify is the callng of the easily bored. Much like a game of Chess, I enjoy knowing my pieces, what they can do for me, how they work best with each other. If I wanted to build mix and match armies from hundreds of parts, I'd play Legos, or Ultramarines. Yeah, but playing GK is like playing with two queens, a king, a rook, and 2-3 pawns. No bishops, no knights (pun not intended), and vastly fewer pawns to sacrifice for victory. You have less than just about every other army out there, except Sisters. How is diversity a bad thing? Choice, and the freedom to build an army of your choosing, is at the heart of what makes 40k great. Our lack of choices is precisely why we've fallen from Tier 1. If we had viable long-range firepower platforms, or Skyfire, or Interceptor, or more easily accessed AP2...even with our high unit cost and low model count, we'd be able to compete with the other Tier 1 armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Diversity isn't a bad thing. GK aren't built for diversity, so wishing for it is kind of like washing for world peace (ie, get allies). GK are fine on their our, great with Allies, and good buffers as Allies. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 But were saying pure gk, not allies. They don't need variety I'm getting that from you. But for being fast hitting strike quick force, why not throw in a predator or a storm talon? Both are hard hitting fast striking and would fit lore for easy stcs on their own forge world. Walla. Variety. Now you have a decent option over just a ndk. I like my units and finding compatibility, but you have one heavy support out of 2 that are worth taking. You have 2 fast attacks. Add another fast and another heavy. Walla now you got an option here and can add more then just the mono build. Now there's a cheaper anti air option for when getting that 8th model on the table cost too much for a raven. Would that be asking too much? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamon Wolf Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The Current incarnation has more variaty than the Deamon Hunters ( 3rd / 4th Ed Dex ) where the grey knights are concerned as all we had was 1 grand master 1 Brotherhood Captian ( Please note he only had 1 wound ) , Cpatian Stern ( who is worse now and more Points ), expencive Termis that were Eliets back then , Grey Knit Power Armours guys with Expencive Justicars that could be either troops or fast attck to gain deep strike, Purgation squads , Dreadnaughts and Land Raiders and crusaders , If you added the Inquisitors Seciton of the Dex you could get assassins and guard and henchmen , and allies , but I only played pure Grey Knights so for me as a rather old and grizzled GK Player I like the current Dex as it Harks bacjk to the Deamon Hunters Dex with some nice new bits put in I have to Agree with jeffersonian000 that if you take only a Grey knight list we do have somthing for everything , and mixing it up with all the diffrent units is enjoyable I dont find that i am stuck on a mono build ( although I do have a preferred build ) and I find that when i try something diffrent in my builds they usually surprise me ( or die horribly if i put them up against a wrong unit ) the NSF is Amazing and gives us soom many varied builds , not to mention the standard bound list, then you have the option of unbound , I played a completely unbound fast attack game 3 weeks ago against a BA player and that was amazing having our Interceptor squads being the troopes units was cool ( the BA player wantsed to go back to the good old days of Jump pack troops ) in the end it all comes down to what game you will play , your opponent and what build you want to try , I personally would suggest to try them all its worth a go. yes we had an amazing 5th Ed dex but it was OP because GW was in codex creep mode and poor Matt Ward was being whipped with a cat of nine tails with pain amplifiers on the tips by a big man in a rubber suit to make it sooo Op that they had to cut our dex in half and pull most of our toys in our 7th ed dex to make us a balanced and fun army I think we are better than ever before and i dont get the cringing feeling of playing grey knights that i used to get using the 5th ed Dex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Utterly bored by the mono build. That's why I do lots of 'counts-as' with my minis and work in funky allied shenanigans as pseudo Grey Kngiht units. GW have limited choice, they have not limited my imagination. I don't care if you think Belial is a Dark Angel. He's Mordrak. And his Knights are Mordraks Ghosts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I don't care if you think Belial is a Dark Angel. He's Mordrak. And his Knights are Mordraks Ghosts.I do the same thing! SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 /highfive :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Varify is the callng of the easily bored. Much like a game of Chess, I enjoy knowing my pieces, what they can do for me, how they work best with each other. If I wanted to build mix and match armies from hundreds of parts, I'd play Legos, or Ultramarines. SJ Or guard. Example: I can get AT in every single section of the FOC. - Lascannons, in Russes, in Flyers, in Sentinels, in HWTs, in HWS (Veteran, CCS, PCS, IS), - Melta in deepstriking Scions, in a fast Devildog, delivered by Air, by two APCs, by a Vanquisher (kind of), by Cavalry - ordnance and S8+ in several tanks and artillery. - Krak and Melta Bombs in Close Combat (power fists in theory) That is diversity. Grey Knights: - Deamon Hammer - Psibolter. Nuff said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Librarian, Grand Master/Brother-Captain, Brotherhood Champion, Stern, Crowe Paladins, Purifiers, Dreadnoughts GKT, Strikes Interceptors, Stormravens, Rhinos, Razorbacks DreadKnights, Land Raiders, Purgators Draigo, Techmarines Nemesis Strike Force I see the building blocks of a number of viable army lists that can be tailored to different play styles, different opponents, and different collections. As a stand alone army, where cherry picking the best is a good strategy, GK players will always pick the units they think are best, which may or may not be the same as I think is the best, or you think is the best. There are specific shenanigans that GK units synergize well with, and as buffers, GK can bring those shenanigans outside of a stand alone list. Which makes them just like any other codex. I can't help that people lack attention spans that go past the next interesting release. Sticktoitiveness is my thing, after all. Being able to define tactics and strategy starts with the units you want to use, getting to know those units' strengths, weaknesses, and synergies. What one person see as a mono-build, others see as pairing down the fat. Winners set the trend, they don't follow. You win with GK by being the better player, by making less mistakes, by capitalizing on the strengths of your list while midigating it's weaknesses. You can't become a winner if all you do is chase the next cool. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Varify is the callng of the easily bored. Much like a game of Chess, I enjoy knowing my pieces, what they can do for me, how they work best with each other. If I wanted to build mix and match armies from hundreds of parts, I'd play Legos, or Ultramarines. SJ Or guard. Example: I can get AT in every single section of the FOC. - Lascannons, in Russes, in Flyers, in Sentinels, in HWTs, in HWS (Veteran, CCS, PCS, IS), - Melta in deepstriking Scions, in a fast Devildog, delivered by Air, by two APCs, by a Vanquisher (kind of), by Cavalry - ordnance and S8+ in several tanks and artillery. - Krak and Melta Bombs in Close Combat (power fists in theory) That is diversity. Grey Knights: - Deamon Hammer - Psibolter. Nuff said. To be fair, we have tons of krak grenades and can take melta bombs in every slot too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4002805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Do you feel the limitations of the army or do you still find interest in your games, and running lists, with (hopefully) some variables to them? I do feel some limitations of the army even though I still very much enjoy running more or less the same pure GK list (1500pts, above that I usually ally inquisition or guard/scion elements) since august (~25 games) with only minor adjustments. The ongoing interest and the variables stem mostly from the variety of armies I face as I feel that GKs play very differently depending on what codex or army composition you're up against. Every codex can be or has to be played reactivly to a certain point but GKs even more so than others. The challenge to figure out the most efficient tactics against every opponent is what keeps me on my toes and interested in playing mostly the same NSF list over and over again. Or do you feel mono-locked into a build? To a degree, yes. For me GKs have two valid builds right now. The most effective way to field them is the "in your face" NSF detachment. I do think there is a second valid way to field them which is a very purifier-focussed MSU build with ****tons of rhinos instead of the usual TDAs as the rank and file. That said I dare to say that escpecially the NSF build is incredibly fluffy as it is the preferred attack strategy for GKs and for a codex with the very narrow focus of a pseudo SM chapter (GKs are not really a chapter and yes, they have more than the classic 1000 marines) thats actually exactly what I would expect. I do find it kinda silly that single chapters of SM get far more detailed codices than whole alien races even if I do realize why. But there's so much they don't have as part of their inherent codex, and arguably a few units are downright... poor choices period. From a fluff standpoint I find it totally acceptable that our choices are a bit narrow as the GKs are only a small army with a very strong focus on a specific enemy. That said there is still the fact that some parts of the codex feel like very lazy design and could be fixed even without complicating any rules or taking away from the streamlining of the codex which I totally agree with. Some easy fixes imo would be giving Paladins Sanctuary, a dreadnought librarian with GK specific equipment and exchanging the Purgation Squads Nightvision for skyfire, ignore cover, relentless or something like that. A little tinkering with the characters and maybe slight point adjustments for Strikes and Dreadnoughts and the codex would be a goddamn revelation. Overall I'm still pretty happy for what we got. So here I am building lists, and comparing this to the myriad of choices I had with DA or Ultra... or even Chaos. BUT I remind myself that to some degree these 'choices' can be an illusion for these other codexes as they might be there, but provide very little use in gameplay. I would agree that there are a lot of redundant choices in many of the other SM codices as in there are a variety of units that do the same thing in a slightly different manner. That way it enables those codices to field different concepts of armies, every single one a equivalent to our NSF without the dedicated detachment rules. I personally enjoy a overarching army focus that is represented in the crunch. I would actually prefer that some SM codices would become a little narrower in focus which for me means an anrichment in character of the army. For example I would endorse a removal of the whirlwind or devastators from the BA codex just to emphasize their focus on fast and brutal assault attacks and their focus on close combat tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Winners set the trend, they don't follow. You win with GK by being the better player, by making less mistakes, by capitalizing on the strengths of your list while midigating it's weaknesses. You can't become a winner if all you do is chase the next cool. SJ But how often can you do that, with the same list, over and over and over, before you get bored and want to do something else? I've been wargaming for 20 years. Twenty. Years. The idea of playing with ONLY the Grey Knights codex for 20 years is enough to make me find a new hobby. It's one thing to say "stick with it" but it's quite another to suggest that the extremely limited options we have in the GK codex should be enough to sustain anyone's hobby interest for an indefinite period of time. After a while, you're just fighting the same battles over and over again and I don't care how easy you find it to "stick with it", that is boring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Winners set the trend, they don't follow. For me that is an empty phrase and just talking in platitudes. It may be a nice slogan to throw around in certain circles but in general human society seems to support the very opposite: Winners are the ones exploiting trends without risking getting knocked aside by it's bow wave. The people setting trends are usually the stubborn self-involved and curious kind that don't care about the petty concept of winning at something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I've been playing effectively the same list since our 5th Ed codex released. All the 7th Ed codex did was cause me to replace Mordrak with Draigo. At no point have I found the army boring to play, especially since Marlstrom was added. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I found the GK boring as hell to play during 4th and our Daemonhunters years. The new dex bought such a fresh breath of life, it was amazing. Now, we're back to a stripped down Daemonhunters list. Which is boring as hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamon Wolf Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 so 30" shunts and the most feared MC in the game make for a boring game??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 It's weird how many of you manage to call the Grey Knights Codex boring. It's as if you can't see past the fact that there aren't many unit entries... while in reality that doesn't say much at all. Many armies have way more unit entries, but many of them play hardly different or are simply irrelevant. Chaos Space Marines has a ton of unit entries, yet 90% is irrelevant. Almost no army has such diverse movement options. Not just foot, fast, mech or deepstrike, no even a unique 1 time 30" movement for 2 units. A unique movement which requires actual skill to use properly. It's an army which plays very different depending in which army you face! It's arguably the most balanced army in the game regarding assault/shooting. This not just requires a great amount of skill to play correctly (meaning to perfection), it also makes for varied games. You call Astra Militarum, Tau or Ultramarines varied? Hah, they play mostly the same every game, regardless of oppenent. Not trying to offend anybody here, but I wouldn't be surprised if many here don't even appreciate the actual tactical options they have at their disposal. Some of you are taking a NSF all the time aren't you? Deepstriking everything every game and using your shunt moves as soon as possible? If this sounds about right, then maybe you're the wrong player for this type of army. The Psychic phase isn't so much interesting as it is strong for Grey Knights. Strong becacuse you don't rely on psychic powers for your army to function, while having enough powerdice naturally to be able to deny important opposing spells who do depend on them. I just literally don't understand some of you I guess. You call having 10 different weapon profiles for 1 unit variation? I call that distraction. Shooting is shooting, just the required dice rolls change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 99% of the time, what's the best, most optimal way to use the NDK on board? Get into Melee ASAP. That usually involves shunting turn 1. Move towards the enemy as fast as possible, shoot with whatever gun you have on the way in, then smash faces. Rinse, repeat. Not much tactical varience there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/#findComment-4003583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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