Gentlemanloser Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 To be fair, it would also be helpful to have something positive about the Grey Knights. Some good to focus on. Rather than being marginalised with a new Dex, newer releases showing us just what we could have got, but didn't, or just forgotten by FW. There's only so much optimism. (In no way does this excuse people from not being civil to each other though!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 You know I actually play several codexes. And when a new one comes out, I play it. I'll play anything, except Tau and Orks. I have most armies, and use friends' units sometimes to fill the gaps. Quite often the 'new' thing is only shiny for such a brief moment.... Personally, I like to revisit a codex and THEN ask the question how I would rank it. Did it stand the test of time? Did any of it get banned? Does it function the same now as it did then? Or did they release a 'magic bullet' for it? (IE: Eldar magic bullet-ed a lot of Necrons.) Stuff like that are the things I consider as I play other codexes. I'm not just saying this for effect, but I honestly find when I go back to my GK I still think they are one of the best 'cores' in the game. Let's forget allies just because it becomes so muddied and the dynamics change so much. Grey Knights have obvious disadvantages, but for me.... It's the fact they have to be handled 'well' and with competence that makes them so attractive. Sure there are blunt objects.... a Nemesis Dreadknight is such a thing. What an amazing unit.... fun, competent, and flexible. But then we see our numbers dwindled. We are outnumbered, almost always... almost always outgunned. But the subtleties of the army are the beauty of it. Which psychic powers will pull you out of this mess? Can Draigo slay another incredible Death Star? Or will you get that cleansing flame off against 2 Ork mobs converging on your 5 Terminators. The GK are one of the best cores for me. Every time I go somewhere else, and experiment, these guys are the measuring stick for me. It's not intentional, but I always think, 'how would this have played out with my Grey Knights?' For me: I accept that the age of the codex and more importantly 'era' of the codex shows. BUT when it comes back to Grey Knights, I can imagine some very cool Formations will definitely happen. They possibility of a 'Librarius Conclave' is amazing for them... but all in good time. My only beef with the army is the monochromatic feel of armies. But with that too, I step outside the box often to test myself, and -challenge- my own belief system. .... One of those many attempts: The Las Razorbacks + Purgs behind the Pipes with Incinerators! It was not a great success! But I challenged myself, and what I did learn is, having Razorbacks in the backfield for objective games with a 4++ cover actually was very decent. So I did have a take away from that, which lead to my transport experiment which hasn't gone nearly as badly as I would have thought. That was the original intent of the thread. To try to go beyond the obvious choices in the codex, and find some new ideas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Great in theory, but harder to do with this dex, and its very limited choices, than it was with our old dex. Mass Psykers, or Ghostwing, or 5 Orbital Strikes, or Techmarines for Conversion Beamers, etc, etc. Now, we don't really get enough options to build outside the box. Did MSU PAGK way back when. With Riflemen to support. Did Ghostwing, with better DS support. Did Henchman Spam. Heck used henchman to spam Razors/Chimera for the lulz (and had to proxy / borrow a lot!). What do we have now? No where near the same sort of options to work outside the box. But, if you start to shore up our gaps with Allies, well, the world's our oyster. Purifiers in FA Drop Pods. Draigo bamphing Grav Cents (a thing of the past now). Dangle / Bangle replicating our missing Mordrak. Culuexes Assassins and Warp Change tom foolery. And much more. Allies are what enables all this. And we should emrace them! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 To be fair, it would also be helpful to have something positive about the Grey Knights. Some good to focus on. [snip] There's only so much optimism. They're a fantastically cool-looking army with a mysterious and dodgy history that the Dark Angels themselves are envious of. They have the Emperor's own geneseed and the most important mission in all of the Imperium; it's the mission that cuts closest to the core themes of the entire setting. They're not a rookie army, they're not a low skill cap army; they're an army for people willing to experiment, willing to challenge themselves, and not afraid to get their nose bloodied now and again. This is not an army for whiners. Xenos whine. Heretics whine. Mutants whine. We do not whine. The ONLY limit to optimism is the one you set for yourself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 Absolutely.... totally agree. I'm incredibly stubborn though. I'd rather (For some reason I can't explain) battle it out with my GK. But you're right, that's why allies are there and stuff like LibCon etc is there to be cherry picked if you want to go down that road. I still love my GK core though. It's always... refreshing to come back to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Who could forget RDs (and others!) Grey Knight Monkey Armies of Doom!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (And Newcastle is lovely, I'm getting to go back in the summer holidays soon. Hopefully this time, Wet & Wild will be open! :P) Haha, I haven't been in nearly 20 years now but I hear it has reopened again! Thanks all for the encouragement to post. It's not necessarily a case of being intimidated, but more an unwillingness to get caught in a ceaseless back and forth where no-one gives any ground. Whilst I respect that everyone has their opinions and sticks to their guns, it does get a bit old when it's non constructive as I'm not really sure anyone is taking anything away from it. It's why as more of a lurker here, I do feel that all involved (and myself included) may learn a great deal from more bat reps and seeing what each persons local meta involves. Perhaps it will then kickstart a more constructive conversation where people can back up the absolutes with specific examples instead of reeling off the same argument ad nauseam. I enjoy a casual game as for me it's more about the in game banter between friends. I'm not going to lie, I like winning when I can, but my list choices would mostly be seen as gimping myself intentionally... Dreadnought anyone? I also ran a list with no dreadknight a few months back and it was mostly an absolute disaster. I also enjoy the fluffy side of 40k and allying in pods or cents isn't something I'm into as it removes a little bit of the immersion for me. So for the moment it's pure GK all the way. Plus, I only got back into 40k a couple of years ago, I don't like playing with unpainted models and I'm a really slow painter (WIP in my sig if you're interested). It's also (along with fluff reasons) why i'm determined to do the best I can without resorting to more than one DK! @Prot - I do think I've read some of your DA bat reps and enjoyed them so I'll have a look thank you. @Zhukov - Brilliant, I'll have a read thanks again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I enjoy a casual game as for me it's more about the in game banter between friends. I'm not going to lie, I like winning when I can, but my list choices would mostly be seen as gimping myself intentionally... Dreadnought anyone? I also ran a list with no dreadknight a few months back and it was mostly an absolute disaster. I also enjoy the fluffy side of 40k and allying in pods or cents isn't something I'm into as it removes a little bit of the immersion for me. So for the moment it's pure GK all the way. Plus, I only got back into 40k a couple of years ago, I don't like playing with unpainted models and I'm a really slow painter (WIP in my sig if you're interested). It's also (along with fluff reasons) why i'm determined to do the best I can without resorting to more than one DK! I could've written this about myself, more or less. I know for fact there are others on this board who mostly lurk for very similar reasoning. But we're on here. I can't tell you what my W/L record is; I suspect in recent years I've lost more than I've won, but virtually every game has been very close and every game has been super fun, with laughs and each of us cheering the other's models on as they continue to hold and take ground against all odds. I found it's more fun to lose than it is to win, as I learn more and the whole game being a struggle is what's really fun for me. I play only ruthless video games now too these days (XCOM and the like) where a single mistake literally costs me the game and I need to start over. Good. The fun is all in the struggle. And you'll be hard pressed to find a better way to represent the theme of 40k than a game that's a struggle for you to win, or even just get the objectives prior to going down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 I too am someone who despises playing unpainted models. It's sort of a .... reward system I have. If I paint it, I can play it. My only exception is when I sell 1850 points worth of models and have to rebuild from scratch.... not that anyone here has ever done that before. Seriously though the thing about the Dreadknight.... I always play 2, because I rarely ally. So the way I look at it is I am facing some of the toughest stuff my opponents can 'netlist' or whatever, so if I'm not cherry picking from other codexes, I feel I give myself a better chance this way, without doing something like.... Draigo/Cent/Gate. It's all about finding your own way. Some people here swear by multi NDKs... but I face enough 'weird' stuff that more than 2 actually gets me in trouble. (the most recent being Eldar D armies... gees can those be gross with high end models disappearing off the table in unfortunate incidents). But I too do goofy things.... If you read my GK batreps you'll see I'm a sucker for Vortex. At any minute when I'm not sure the outcome, my goto answer seems to be 'vortex will solve the problem forever'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm a terrible painter these days. Was ok when I was a kid and originally playing RT. I don't have enough time to paint, I don't enjoy it any more, and most of my army remains unpainted. :( Haha, I haven't been in nearly 20 years now but I hear it has reopened again! Literally spent all day in there a while ago with my daughter. So many slides! When we last went up, while they were 'open' they were closed to the public as Newcastle schools weren't on Holiday yet. There were turning away local folk who had driven for like 30 minutes to get there, from other areas whoes school were on holiday. It was a bit messy. ;) but more an unwillingness to get caught in a ceaseless back and forth where no-one gives any ground I'm more than willing to give ground, I get my mind changed on stuff all the time, and am happy to admit where I'm wrong. ;) But I too do goofy things.... I used to run (with out old dex) Draigo with a unit of Daemonhosts! :P I just want him to be accompanied by bound daemons he'd dragged back form the warp with him. Seemed fitting. ;) We once agreed to some Herohammer, and I was asked to detach Draigo from his unit and go man to man with a few foes. In one match, that led to the Daemonhosts running off the table due to failed moral. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 @thade - Glad to hear I'm not alone. Although remembering the rules can be a struggle since I don't play that often, never mind the actual game! @Prot - Vortex is a fickle beast... if there's a chance that it can scatter onto my troops then it will. It's got to the point where I might as well not roll the dice! I'm aiming to experiment a bit more now I have a fair few units painted, including two librarians with potentially more vortex which should be fun. @GML - The Draigo experiment is cool, I like things like that. Fluff reasoning and a different list choice rolled into one! As I've been generally off topic, here's something more relevant... I do feel like making a balanced GK list is a struggle at times and I would rather not resort to multiple DK's which is frustrating. I did try two of them in a game a while back using a borrowed model and the improvement to my game was instantly noticeable. But it actually made me more determined to make things work with what I have instead, as it does feel like a crutch to me. Thankfully as all of my friends apart from one aren't super competitive it's not too bad though. I was also surprised that purgators ended up stuck with night vision in this codex. Given that my friends generally ignore night fighting it makes them quite pointless for me. I was expecting them or something else to get skyfire instead of astral aim as a way of dealing with FMC's, which I've also struggled with a few times. Though that was before I got a stormraven, which may or may not help. I think GK do well at their niche, but probably aren't designed to work as a pure army against any opponent. Which is difficult, but that's the way it will probably stay unfortunately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 As I've been generally off topic, here's something more relevant... I do feel like making a balanced GK list is a struggle at times and I would rather not resort to multiple DK's which is frustrating. I did try two of them in a game a while back using a borrowed model and the improvement to my game was instantly noticeable. But it actually made me more determined to make things work with what I have instead, as it does feel like a crutch to me. Thankfully as all of my friends apart from one aren't super competitive it's not too bad though.I was also surprised that purgators ended up stuck with night vision in this codex. Given that my friends generally ignore night fighting it makes them quite pointless for me. I was expecting them or something else to get skyfire instead of astral aim as a way of dealing with FMC's, which I've also struggled with a few times. Though that was before I got a stormraven, which may or may not help.I think GK do well at their niche, but probably aren't designed to work as a pure army against any opponent. Which is difficult, but that's the way it will probably stay unfortunately. 100% this. :) Well, apart fromt he two NDK. I own two, so no need to borrow. :P (But when I want to run 4... Then I'm busting out 'counts-as' oval flying bases!) Sad thing is, we *were* a 'pure' (as in Codex only) army. Just last Dex. Not so much now. But it's also obvious that GW are pushing Allies. Just look at Codex: LEgion of the Damned, and thier auto los if used Pure situation... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I do feel like making a balanced GK list is a struggle at times and I would rather not resort to multiple DK's which is frustrating. I did try two of them in a game a while back using a borrowed model and the improvement to my game was instantly noticeable. But it actually made me more determined to make things work with what I have instead, as it does feel like a crutch to me. Thankfully as all of my friends apart from one aren't super competitive it's not too bad though. (emphasis mine) If that's your attitude going forward, you're going to have a very fun time with this game at large. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 It may not be a popular opinion, but I think Matt Ward was GWs best codex writer. I loved both of his Blood Angels and Grey Knights codexes. He showed a real willing to try to make every unit in the book work, and to make different mechanics and builds possible. It's a shame he got shouted out by the fluff gallery. Both of the new GK and BA codexes have plentiful units that don't really work, and not may functioning builds. GK get by to some extent by the Dreadknight and to a lesser extent Draigo propping the codex up. The other issue with the Grey Knights is that the previous codex was split into two - GK and Inquisition. The Inquistion don't seem to be mentioned much here - is is because people play with limited detachments ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 It may not be a popular opinion, but I think Matt Ward was GWs best codex writer. I loved both of his Blood Angels and Grey Knights codexes. He showed a real willing to try to make every unit in the book work, and to make different mechanics and builds possible. It's a shame he got shouted out by the fluff gallery. Both of the new GK and BA codexes have plentiful units that don't really work, and not may functioning builds. GK get by to some extent by the Dreadknight and to a lesser extent Draigo propping the codex up. Hell yeah, Matt Ward for president! The other issue with the Grey Knights is that the previous codex was split into two - GK and Inquisition. The Inquistion don't seem to be mentioned much here - is is because people play with limited detachments ? It's rather hard to have discussions involving multiple codices on B&C I find, due to the way the forum is organized. (Clearly divided in different sections for different codices) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afc24 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Diversity isn't a bad thing. GK aren't built for diversity, so wishing for it is kind of like washing for world peace (ie, get allies). GK are fine on their our, great with Allies, and good buffers as Allies. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afc24 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I agree with u!!! Been playing grey knights a while and despite the lack of models on the table, they are an annoying army to face. I play my best mates tau army 3 times a week near enough and I always win. Tau is so overpowered but compare to GK my mate disagrees. 2+ saves all around deep strike 1st turn combat by 2nd basically game over. May have no anti flyers but they are easily avoided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4093973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Hiding in CC is a time honored tradition. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4094006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afc24 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Exactly. That's where we excel. No point in playing them in a way we don't succeed. If we're good and excel in combat and works for u keep doing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4094041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Who could forget RDs (and others!) Grey Knight Monkey Armies of Doom!! I came this close to getting all the legit Jokaero models as well...kinda glad I didn't in retrospect. Total waste of money with the changes to Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4094825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afc24 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Haha do they still do the horrible monkey figures? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4095266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yeah. In Finecast *slits wrists* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4095763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afc24 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Haha that's horrible Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4096032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
casb1965 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Diversity isn't a bad thing. GK aren't built for diversity, so wishing for it is kind of like washing for world peace (ie, get allies). GK are fine on their our, great with Allies, and good buffers as Allies. SJ With the advent of 6th and it's detachments all armies became allied forces rather than stand alone armies so the GKs being limited to an allied role is no biggie. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4096138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 With the advent of 6th and it's detachments all armies became allied forces rather than stand alone armies so the GKs being limited to an allied role is no biggie. Not true. Necrons, Daemons, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar all function just fine as a pure army. New Marines do as well. The saddest thing is, we were viable as a pure force, but then GW took the nerf bat to everything unique or powerful in our 5th edition book...bar a few things, which they buffed even harder than before. And the worst thing is, even if we wound back the clock to our 5th edition incarnation, it's still not that powerful. I've come to accept our place as an Ally codex. It still irritates me, but I'm not going to fight it anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/page/7/#findComment-4096960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.