Starting Ravenwing looking at options available

[rorhammer]

Hi there, I am coming back to the 1st Legion after 17 years away. Dark Angels were my first and.... unfortunately most unsuccessful army, but that was mainly due to my youth, laziness and lack of understanding of 2nd edition therefore getting curb-stomped by our codex:angels of death brethren quite often! Despite that I have always totally been taken in my the depth of the DA back story. 

 

After collecting a few DV sets for my Alpha Legion army and not getting many takers for the DA models, I have decided to go full circle and have both the First and Last Legions on my shelves, with Cypher/Omegon sitting on the fence in the middle. I play Dark Eldar too but that's another story...

 

Ravenwing pop-out at me firstly because it's a chip on my shoulder I only had a very few DW and mostly GW back in the day so never had the chance to try out the men in black, but also I have become more accustomed to fast moving mobile armies through playing with Dark Eldar. Therefore this appeals to me as it's something I feel more familiar and comfortable with. I have tried looking around t'internet for tactica articles for 7th but most read doom & gloom, 'play C:SM' or just plainly lack detail and love because of the lack of cheese available perhaps? So if you know of any links which will actually be of benefit I would be grateful. I understand Dark Angels are not a top tier codex but what I'm looking for is information on utility and options to try to keep things fresh from game to game.

 

after reading what advice I did find and mulling through the codex I have evaluated some options I like the look of and would appreciate any feedback good or bad..

 

[HQ]

 

+ Sammy, he is great has EW, jetbike, mounted plasma cannon! can confer skilled rider to RWAS but can do his own thing too, nvm granting RWAS as troops choices.

- Is required to run a purist Ravenwing army as 3 FA slots is a squeeze without him and normal troops may feel like a tax.

? Is unbound a viable option lead by a mounted Int-Chappy or Libby/conclave instead? you lose Ob sec and the trait re-roll but gain more flexibility.

 

+ Libby cheap, inner circle, psyker, ML1-2, access to divination, can carry PFG. Pretty obvious this guys utility, taking digital weapons seems nice too if used in melee for better Insta-gib chance.

- not many downsides perhaps lack of natural inv save. 

? is the conclave formation worth the investment for 415 ish points with zeke and 2 lvl 2's on bikes one with a PFG? How do you deploy Zeke? The only thing I could think of was to buy him a cheap 5 man combi/plas tac squad with a rhino have him roll biomancy, or just take witchfire primaris selections from different trees, the others taking Divination and Telepathy and have him pop out the top hatch smiting, mind worming etc to his hearts content... The tac's can shoot plasma in the shooting phase.  

 

+ Int Chappy, inner circle and zealot (hope we don't pay for fearless twice there.. ) assault buffing goodness, access to digital weapons, giving him a funky relic weapon looks fun too. Oh and 4+ invul

-  I've always felt Chaplains are too expensive for what they do, especially as the part of the game they effect (assault) is generally seen as weak/unreliable.

? I like the idea of attaching this guy to a RWCS would he be considered overkill or just great fun!

 

[FA/TROOPS] 

 

+ RWAS are the core to the army can take MSU with 3 units + Attack Bikes or beefier units of 6 with Attack bikes and speeders, fast, jink, hit&run, scout move, twin-linked goodness. 

- poor in melee, are outclassed by the white scars generally i.e no skilled rider,points cost, then the dreaded jinking gamble decision.

? if you buy full multiple squads with speeders and attack bikes can the attack bikes become their own unit same with the speeders, or just become separate units of one on their own. 

 

[FA/HQ-ADDON]

 

+ RWCS/RWBK's when I first looked at these guys, I thought HOW MUCH!? BUT I have only heard good things about them and the devastating impact they can have in games, Plama talons, RWGL,s skilled rider + the stuff RWAS have. Also can pack solid melee punch with hit&run too. The RWCS Knights are cheaper (why?) Banners give utility options and a FNP option is always nice. 

- overcosted, more so with the Black Knights.

? just want general opinions on how they play, do they win their points back consistently?

 

[FA]

 

+ LSSS light and mobile, have lots of possible load outs and can deepstrike, large squads can get costly but more firepower and hullpoints to shred if you shift around their formation.

- they are paper aeroplanes and can be glanced by bolter fire to death, need cover generally, but have the option to jink.

? How potent is a squad of 2-4 of these with a Divination libby with PFG parked up next to them? is it a reliable tactic? 

 

+ Dark Talon ok I don't know much about the flyers this is the cheapest and I prefer the loadout, is it as average/bad as people make out? Hurricane bolters are potent on a LRC... so I can understand it's overcosted as all of the DA's new toys were... the only codex that ever happened in.. I like the model so I'm curious in it's in game utility.

 

I think I have covered everything, the only thing I want to add is for now at least I want to stay clear of the Dakka Banner, I can see the benefits but it also feel restrictive and inviting to pie plates of doom with it's low range so I think for now the Ravenwing company banner is something good for me to start with as it gives more freedom to your units... plus it's cheaper. Also give me opinions on what else supports RW really well in general. 

[Solrac]

Hey mate! Glad to see you're back on the 1st legion horse!

 

 

[HQ]

 

+ Sammy, he is great has EW, jetbike, mounted plasma cannon! can confer skilled rider to RWAS but can do his own thing too, nvm granting RWAS as troops choices.

- Is required to run a purist Ravenwing army as 3 FA slots is a squeeze without him and normal troops may feel like a tax.

? Is unbound a viable option lead by a mounted Int-Chappy or Libby/conclave instead? you lose Ob sec and the trait re-roll but gain more flexibility.

 

Unbound is good if you can get people to agree to it and not abuse it and just build a fluff army (like you are attempting). Yes you lose Obsec however you save heaps of points to fit in other things by not taking Sammy.

 

+ Libby cheap, inner circle, psyker, ML1-2, access to divination, can carry PFG. Pretty obvious this guys utility, taking digital weapons seems nice too if used in melee for better Insta-gib chance.

- not many downsides perhaps lack of natural inv save. 

? is the conclave formation worth the investment for 415 ish points with zeke and 2 lvl 2's on bikes one with a PFG? How do you deploy Zeke? The only thing I could think of was to buy him a cheap 5 man combi/plas tac squad with a rhino have him roll biomancy, or just take witchfire primaris selections from different trees, the others taking Divination and Telepathy and have him pop out the top hatch smiting, mind worming etc to his hearts content... The tac's can shoot plasma in the shooting phase.  

 

Conclave is very expensive and yes you will have to stick Zeke somewhere. If you are thinking of running it just to get extra Bike Libbys I suggest you fit in a Dev squad for Zeke to babysit and he can cast Prescience on them from the Div tree making them heaps more effective. Dark Angels Librarians do not have access to Biomancy.

 

+ Int Chappy, inner circle and zealot (hope we don't pay for fearless twice there.. ) assault buffing goodness, access to digital weapons, giving him a funky relic weapon looks fun too. Oh and 4+ invul

-  I've always felt Chaplains are too expensive for what they do, especially as the part of the game they effect (assault) is generally seen as weak/unreliable.

? I like the idea of attaching this guy to a RWCS would he be considered overkill or just great fun!

 

A bit more pricey over a Libby and I think that's why the Libby wins out more as giving your Libby Prescience is better than the Chappy's Zealot rule. Your Int Chappy is a beefier character though and a popular build is giving him the Mace of Redemption.

 

[FA/TROOPS] 

 

+ RWAS are the core to the army can take MSU with 3 units + Attack Bikes or beefier units of 6 with Attack bikes and speeders, fast, jink, hit&run, scout move, twin-linked goodness. 

- poor in melee, are outclassed by the white scars generally i.e no skilled rider,points cost, then the dreaded jinking gamble decision.

? if you buy full multiple squads with speeders and attack bikes can the attack bikes become their own unit same with the speeders, or just become separate units of one on their own. 

 

Never look at these guys as a melee unit. They are essentially Tac squads with better mobility. Zip around and shoot things and kill tanks with Meltas. If you take an attack bike always go a MM. Taking a full squad with an Attack bike and Speeder makes all of it Ob Sec even though they are separate squads. They are always separate squads.

 

[FA/HQ-ADDON]

 

+ RWCS/RWBK's when I first looked at these guys, I thought HOW MUCH!? BUT I have only heard good things about them and the devastating impact they can have in games, Plama talons, RWGL,s skilled rider + the stuff RWAS have. Also can pack solid melee punch with hit&run too. The RWCS Knights are cheaper (why?) Banners give utility options and a FNP option is always nice. 

- overcosted, more so with the Black Knights.

? just want general opinions on how they play, do they win their points back consistently?

 

These guys are the backbone of any solid Ravenwing list. I try to fit in 2 Command Squads over normal black Knights as the Banners and Apothecary add to their effectiveness and versatility. They are an awesome shooty unit and a pretty good melee unit in a pinch.

 

[FA]

 

+ LSSS light and mobile, have lots of possible load outs and can deepstrike, large squads can get costly but more firepower and hullpoints to shred if you shift around their formation.

- they are paper aeroplanes and can be glanced by bolter fire to death, need cover generally, but have the option to jink.

? How potent is a squad of 2-4 of these with a Divination libby with PFG parked up next to them? is it a reliable tactic? 

 

The only LS ive ever seen run are either deep striking land speeders with 2x MM to pop tanks (a little expensive) or running Typhoons. Typhoons imo are the best as you can have them at the back relatively out of harms way shooting missiles. They are also mobile enough to run around and cap home objectives for you whilst still being able to shoot their weapons.

 

+ Dark Talon ok I don't know much about the flyers this is the cheapest and I prefer the loadout, is it as average/bad as people make out? Hurricane bolters are potent on a LRC... so I can understand it's overcosted as all of the DA's new toys were... the only codex that ever happened in.. I like the model so I'm curious in it's in game utility.

 

Dark talon adds utility and is good for debuffing your enemy. If you have a Cmd squad with Bolter banner with a Libby with PFG the Dark Talon can hover and follow the Cmd squad around shooting 24 Bolter shots at 24" a turn (which is about 4 turns of shooting in one hit). People say meh bolters but 24 twin linked shots at 24" is nothing to scoff at.

 

I think I have covered everything, the only thing I want to add is for now at least I want to stay clear of the Dakka Banner, I can see the benefits but it also feel restrictive and inviting to pie plates of doom with it's low range so I think for now the Ravenwing company banner is something good for me to start with as it gives more freedom to your units... plus it's cheaper. Also give me opinions on what else supports RW really well in general. 

 

Dakka Banner doesn't mean you have to run all your bikes in a clump. Youll get a pretty good benefit just running a couple of squads close which u need to support the CMd Squad anyway. I have an 1850 list (yet to test) that runs 2 Dark Talons to rush and sit with the Cmd squad to make use of the Dakka Banner that way whilst the rest of the army goes to a different flank.

[SvenONE]

Here's a list that I posted awhile back and have had success with before turning to another Imp Knight based list with Dark Angels.

 

Your head is in the right place for RW.  There isn't a whole much I would correct you on or give you more advice.  Divination just isn't as good anymore with the 7th edition though.  

 

I'd also not say the RWBKs are THAT overcosted for what they do and what 7th edition did to jink (remember, combined with a Darkshroud that's a 2+ cover save) but I do think they should cost the same as the RWCS.  The RW on its own has trouble dealing with any large amounts of MCs and Ignores Cover weapons, hence why with the advent of the Imperial Knight, I've added that to the list.

 

I almost want to say, just hold on a little while longer to see what GW does to Dark Angels with whatever comes out in the summer.  

[Centurio]

I wouldn't give up objective secured... its amazing on bikes and attack bikes when using the cards.

 

I think black knights are worth it, especially vs monsterous creatures.

[rorhammer]

I understand where your coming from SvenONE in regards to holding on abit longer. Will they update 6th edition codeci to 7th or just bombard us with formations and faction specific detachments etc ala Nids. There are too many rumours of new 40k stuff this year when you have factor in big releases for fantasy and 9th edition promotions too it seems abit far fetched. And with Daemonkin keeping the same costing + MoK with the Chaos SM codex I'm not feeling that optimistic.... but I could build and paint slowly over the coming months and see what develops...

 

Thanks for the input guys.

[ValourousHeart]

Welcome to the Second Company.

 

 

Hey mate! Glad to see you're back on the 1st legion horse!

 

 

[HQ]

 

+ Sammy, he is great has EW, jetbike, mounted plasma cannon! can confer skilled rider to RWAS but can do his own thing too, nvm granting RWAS as troops choices.

- Is required to run a purist Ravenwing army as 3 FA slots is a squeeze without him and normal troops may feel like a tax.

? Is unbound a viable option lead by a mounted Int-Chappy or Libby/conclave instead? you lose Ob sec and the trait re-roll but gain more flexibility.

 

Unbound is good if you can get people to agree to it and not abuse it and just build a fluff army (like you are attempting). Yes you lose Obsec however you save heaps of points to fit in other things by not taking Sammy.

 

You could go unbound, but as Sammie is one of our best assets, I have to ask why you would want to?  The tax that you are wincing about is not Sammie, but his Jetbike.  You have to dedicate to many assets to ensure that the Jetbike does something fantastic.   Don't get me wrong, I love the model and am very happy I bought one, however I almost never field it.... I take the Land-speeder instead.

 

The aspects of the Jetbike you liked most are the EW, Jetbike, plasma cannon, Skilled rider.  Well lets break that down shall we.  1). EW means that it takes 3 wounds past his saves to kill him.  Well the Land-speeder has 2 HP and the same 4++ save, so it is effectively the same 3 wounds.  The difference is T5 vs AV14... well the I should say that the real difference is S3 vs S8, or the minimum strength weapon it takes to cause damage.  Every model in an IG list has at least a S3 weapons... that means any model that happens to be in range has a chance to kill him.  The thing I like about the speeder is the fact that it is down right immune to all but the most powerful weapons in the game.  Plasma doesn't cut it, it has to be a krak missile or better.  2).  The Jetbike rule only really has an effect in this game if he is by himself.

 

3).  Plasma Cannon... 36 inch range weapon.  So your choice is to run him by himself in the back field to get the most out of that range, or put him with a squad to get the most out of his sword.  In a RWAS the other weapons 12 inches if you are running Melta guns and in a RWCS or RWBK they are 18 inches.  Plus you are already running an elite army with a low model count, do you really want the chance to give your opponent slay the warlord from a failed save on a gets hot roll.  If you just want a back field plasma cannon, there are much cheaper ways to go about getting that.

 

4). Skilled rider is very good, but if you don't have it, you tend to just drive around terrain... or at least I do.  And most of the terrain that I want on the board is LOS blocking so you can't just plow through it anyway.

 

Check the stats of the top tier CC monsters in the game and see how many GEQ and MEQ they remove in a given game turn, not the squad they are with, but what they actually contribute.  Then compare that with the Jetbike and Land-speeder.  You will find that the Jetbike is a 2nd Tier character when it comes to damage output... but the Speeder is on par with top Tier characters.

 

If you plan to take RWSS, you should really consider the Sammie Speeder.

[FA/TROOPS] 

 

+ RWAS are the core to the army can take MSU with 3 units + Attack Bikes or beefier units of 6 with Attack bikes and speeders, fast, jink, hit&run, scout move, twin-linked goodness. 

- poor in melee, are outclassed by the white scars generally i.e no skilled rider,points cost, then the dreaded jinking gamble decision.

? if you buy full multiple squads with speeders and attack bikes can the attack bikes become their own unit same with the speeders, or just become separate units of one on their own. 

 

Never look at these guys as a melee unit. They are essentially Tac squads with better mobility. Zip around and shoot things and kill tanks with Meltas. If you take an attack bike always go a MM. Taking a full squad with an Attack bike and Speeder makes all of it Ob Sec even though they are separate squads. They are always separate squads.

 

RWAS are great and you should take a bunch.  I prefer the 6 man units with attack bike and speeder better as they are more resilient.  However I always try to take a minimum of 3 RWAS units and so that sometimes requires that I take the smaller squads.  But if you plan on taking RWSS, you might as well take the speeder in the RWAS.

 

Consider your opponent and the army they are taking before you commit to a particular weapon.  Melta's on bikes are great and multi-meltas on attack bikes are awesome, especally if you are facing armor.  But Meltas vs MC and FMC are not that great.  Sure they will be more likely to wound, but have a zero likelihood of killing the unit in one turn, and you might not get a second turn to shoot.  Don't get me started on how useless multimeltas are vs the "how many orks can I fit on the table" list.  Always consider the meta.

[FA]

 

+ LSSS light and mobile, have lots of possible load outs and can deepstrike, large squads can get costly but more firepower and hullpoints to shred if you shift around their formation.

- they are paper aeroplanes and can be glanced by bolter fire to death, need cover generally, but have the option to jink.

? How potent is a squad of 2-4 of these with a Divination libby with PFG parked up next to them? is it a reliable tactic? 

 

The only LS ive ever seen run are either deep striking land speeders with 2x MM to pop tanks (a little expensive) or running Typhoons. Typhoons imo are the best as you can have them at the back relatively out of harms way shooting missiles. They are also mobile enough to run around and cap home objectives for you whilst still being able to shoot their weapons.

 

I love landspeeders.... and I generally take 8 to 10 speeders in a 2500 point list.  I have trouble making some of the weapon choices work... double flamer for example.  But others work great... multi-melta / assault cannon.  This is by far my favorite weapon load-out.  It has great synergy with the rest of the army.  Both weapon ranges are the same so no worring about one being out of range, both can damage AV 14, both wound MEQ on 2+, with potential to ignore any armor saves, causes ID to T3 and swarms or T4 after a Rad grenade.  The weapons synergy together means that AV 12 is toast even at 24 inches out, MC can be dispatched in a single round of shooting from just this unit.

 

That speeder can hurt any unit in the game and 2 or 3 of them can remove almost any unit from the game in one turn of shooting.  If you run them as independent speeders (IE RWSS of 1 model, plus your RWAS speeders) he will have to dedicate several units to deal with them while you gang up on him.  The play style is very easy, everything move to the flanks and removes whole units at a time, pressing and falling back to isolate and shatter the cohesiveness of your opponent's army.

 

One final bit going back to the Sammie speeder vs the Jetbike.   If you had 3 lascannons and the choice of shooting down 3 AV10 speeder or 1 sammie speeder, which do you think you would have a better chance of taking down.  I know which one I would pick, or should I say which three I would pick.

 

[ValourousHeart]

Here's a list that I posted awhile back and have had success with before turning to another Imp Knight based list with Dark Angels.

 

Your head is in the right place for RW.  There isn't a whole much I would correct you on or give you more advice.  Divination just isn't as good anymore with the 7th edition though.  

 

I'd also not say the RWBKs are THAT overcosted for what they do and what 7th edition did to jink (remember, combined with a Darkshroud that's a 2+ cover save) but I do think they should cost the same as the RWCS.  The RW on its own has trouble dealing with any large amounts of MCs and Ignores Cover weapons, hence why with the advent of the Imperial Knight, I've added that to the list.

 

I almost want to say, just hold on a little while longer to see what GW does to Dark Angels with whatever comes out in the summer.  

 

We only have trouble dealing with MC if we only take MM ABs and TML landspeeders.  We can deal with almost any list, if we just take the right weapons.

 

The only list I have trouble dealing with is the "Hmm... can I really fit 400 models in a 2000 point game?  I'm sure going to try."