Heavy Stuff?

[Jacques Corbin]

My buddy just bought Dark Vengeance, and is eyeing the Crimson Slaughter box next. He is very new to the hobby. He want a heavy force, and I prefer light. What do you suggest he get next?

 

I suggested the following:

A Chaos Vindicator

A Forgefiend

Another Helbrute

A Heldrake

A Warpsmith

Chaos Bikers

Raptors

 

I suggested Raptors because I play RG and love my jp guys. Raptors can deep strike with not only flamers, but meltaguns, which I find hilarious. So how viable are the units I suggested?

[Fatespinner]

Heldrake.  The answer is always Heldrake.  Every Chaos army should have at least one.  They're just so good.

 

In second place, I'd say get a Forgefiend/Maulerfiend kit and magnetize because Forgefiends are hard to use in many configurations (particularly for their cost) but Maulerfiends are often very useful.

[the jeske]

yeah, only helldrakes are bad since the 7th faq. If he wants heavy stuff he could go with 2-3 mauler fiends, some bikers, a lord+XxSorc and cultists as troops.

 

He should stay away from raptors, they are [like most meq csm units] rather bad. Worse they share the slot with bikers who do the same and are much better.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Heldrakes aren't bad since the 7th FAQ, they're just not the overpowered easy mode unit they used to be. I said it when it first came out and we didn't have the 360 FAQ yet, that all you need to do is preplan the flight path. Z pattern to run up and down the board, or a diamond pattern to circle the board, or hit and fly off into Ongoing Reserves if you're running 2+.

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, so helldrake for sure, and bikers, but what about a vindicator?

[Teetengee]

I love vindicators, but if you are going to take one, take two if you are playing competitively.

[the jeske]

Ok, so helldrake for sure, and bikers, but what about a vindicator?

One of the worse tanks. low armor and short range gun is one thing. another one is the fact that single shot blast don't do much, if they don't ignore cover. There is also a lot of small things, like the inability to deal with flyers

 

 

Z pattern to run up and down the board, or a diamond pattern to circle the board, or hit and fly off into Ongoing Reserves if you're running 2+.

the flamer turret nerf is a small thing compering to the super huge nerf of its melee ability. a 170pts flamer even a torrent one is not worth it. That is why chaos csm stoped being run as ally for demons .

[Warsmith Aznable]

The Vector Strike change doesn't bother me, really. Heldrakes still tear other flyers out of the air, so it's fulfilling two good roles in anti-infantry and anti-air, both of which it does well. Just because its anti-armour capabilities got reduced (but not removed) doesn't put it in the bad category.

 

It's not just a 170 point flamer, though. It's an AP3 torrent flamer that usually can render one enemy squad combat ineffective per round.

 

I just don't see how it's "bad" just because it can't do absolutely every combat role by itself. It's good at what it is designed to do.

[Jacques Corbin]

So why take vindicators in pairs?

[Teetengee]

Single copies of single gun tanks tend to just get shot up and shut down really quickly, but two of them become a much harder to deal with threat, since if you focus them down you ignore the rest of the (hopefully mech/armoured army) or if you don't at least one gets through to start dropping pie plates.

[the jeske]

 

Heldrakes still tear other flyers out of the air, so it's fulfilling two good roles in anti-infantry and anti-air, both of which it does well

which one. vendettas aren't run anymore, you can't say they take out FMC out and most troops will either tank the wounds or are in a transport. You can hurt bikers and that is more or less it[well the non invisi units at least]. Everything else the flamer bounces off.

 

 

It's an AP3 torrent flamer that usually can render one enemy squad combat ineffective per round.

 

Maybe if someone sets up his dudes in a phalanx formations[and they aren't terminators]. Which unit do they wipe out? DA ? nope they are in a transport. Anything necron? still gets the protocol, sometimes an inv on top of that. GK are all+2sv. nids? can't use flamers flyers. Demons? well you can hurt horrors and the dogs[as long as they aren't grimored up], but even those get an inv. Bikers are best target, but even they get invisbility/t5[no+3wounding]/tanks in some units. So maybe it counteres TWC stars?nope ++3 tanks in it. It is a win more 170pts unit. And saying that losing old vector strike doesn't do much to its effectivness[its not like it was good becaue it  was poping transports and then flaming the units inside right?], makes 0 sense.

 

 

It's good at what it is designed to do.

 

 

only it isn't

[Xenith]

So why take vindicators in pairs?

 

Two tanks kill twice as much stuff, while taking twice as much anti tank firepower to kill, essentially giving them a 4x greater impact on the battle.

 

By taking a second tank, your opponents anti tank firepower will be divided between the two, meaning your tanks will live longer.

[Trevak Dal]

Heldrakes aren't bad since the 7th FAQ, they're just not the overpowered easy mode unit they used to be. I said it when it first came out and we didn't have the 360 FAQ yet, that all you need to do is preplan the flight path. Z pattern to run up and down the board, or a diamond pattern to circle the board, or hit and fly off into Ongoing Reserves if you're running 2+.

Hell yeah, my Turkey Alduin does good work for me and sets up other stuff on the board.

 

When you say that your buddy wants a 'heavy' force, does that mean he wants lots of guys on deck...or does he want lots of tanks/big things?

 

Because Chaos can do both.  We can field a :cusston of Brutes (3 in elites, plus however many in Helcult, etc formations), and have some surprisingly fast walkers in the Maulerfiends.  Everybody dismisses the Forgefiend but they can drop 8 s8ap4 shots or up to 3 s8ap2 Plasma blasts per turn-though the blasts are at Vindicator Ranges (which is a large blast and s10 ap2)

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

 

Heldrakes still tear other flyers out of the air, so it's fulfilling two good roles in anti-infantry and anti-air, both of which it does well

which one. vendettas aren't run anymore, you can't say they take out FMC out and most troops will either tank the wounds or are in a transport. You can hurt bikers and that is more or less it[well the non invisi units at least]. Everything else the flamer bounces off.

 

 

It's an AP3 torrent flamer that usually can render one enemy squad combat ineffective per round.

 

Maybe if someone sets up his dudes in a phalanx formations[and they aren't terminators]. Which unit do they wipe out? DA ? nope they are in a transport. Anything necron? still gets the protocol, sometimes an inv on top of that. GK are all+2sv. nids? can't use flamers flyers. Demons? well you can hurt horrors and the dogs[as long as they aren't grimored up], but even those get an inv. Bikers are best target, but even they get invisbility/t5[no+3wounding]/tanks in some units. So maybe it counteres TWC stars?nope ++3 tanks in it. It is a win more 170pts unit. And saying that losing old vector strike doesn't do much to its effectivness[its not like it was good becaue it  was poping transports and then flaming the units inside right?], makes 0 sense.

 

 

It's good at what it is designed to do.

 

 

only it isn't

 

In what is apparently your own super specific local meta they may be objectively bad, but in general use they are not. I could provide a complete list of units the baleflamer ruins, but it's a lot easier to say that if you're facing TEQ heavy opponents then you have other things to worry about outside of what flyer you're going to take.

[Targetlock]

there is also the good old rule of cool, go by what he likes the looks of most, personally i would choose either a maulerfiend or heldrake (both awesome models) though i rather like the vindicator suggestion, reminds me of the iron warriors.