Just had a Maelstrom and I feel a little beat up....

[Prot]

So I had this game tonight... Maelstrom with the house rule of Objectives must be 'possible' or a free discard is allowed.

 

I know we're seeing on the forum some people dislike Maelstrom... that's fine. We happen to really like it, and the reason I'm mentioning it is to add context to the conversation here.

 

So yea, I played this Ultramarine guy, he used a master of the forge and of course that means two relic tanks. A super shooty army. Wow... I took every advantage I had learned in my time here and had real difficulties.

 

I get first turn, and it's escalation. This is perhaps the first time in 4-5 games that I have got to go first I think. Anyway it's been a while and I'm looking forward to it. 

 

Since I have rolled for Gate and I'm using Draigo, I decide to deploy everything, and gate up big time... get in his face fast and make as big a dent as I can.

 

So for background this was my approximate list:

 

Draigo + Libby + 5 Paladins with 'stuff' and an Apothecary

 

Libby + 5 Termies with stuff

 

5 Interceptors

 

5 Purifiers in Rhino

 

2 Dreadknights loaded for bear.

 

And that's a whooping 1850.

 

His list is super ultramarine style shooty with two relic vehicles and two shooty dreads in pods (His relics were the Scorpio (?) which is like a St8 AP3 whirlwind that can barrage D3 and a Sicaran). He has bikes, a Thunderfire...tacticals, but no Grav Cent's (thankfully). 

 

I'm used to playing elite armies. Truly, but even power armour vs power armour this felt bad.

 

I end up moving and getting a REALLY good Gate off with a bullseye which lets my LIbby fire off Cleansing Flame on a ton of squads..... He couldn't believe it. He hasn't played against GK in a long time and he instantly regretted putting anything into reserves... I agreed with him on that.

 

I hit so many squads, but get this, we counted approximately 35 out of 37 saves. Wow. 

 

I got desperate and my other Termie Libby cranked out a Vortex.... which has backfired on me with the deviation, but I already felt desperate in turn 1. lol So get this.... it's my one lucky moment, I get a 6 on the D chart and the Sicaran goes BOOM. First blood, but admittedly pure luck.

 

He's reacting now almost out of fear... he thinks Draigo is going to be a big problem but honestly I'm just using him to tank for the Paladins....

 

Now I'll just cut to the chase and I did win pointswise quite handidly something like... 9 -2 points. But I want to discuss some moments from the game, and see what you guys think:

 

Lowlights:

1. Purifiers in Rhino. As I had suspected, he did largely ignore the rhino because he was filling his pants over the Dreadknights. So I was sure to concetrate on their Sanctuary. But the Purifiers really sucked. They actually got to the show unharmed, out of the Rhino which still had one hullpoint left, however, they all died to a hail of shots. He just feared them so much he threw a ton of stuff at them.

 

2. Draigo. I'm just loving the model, love the background, and I confess I play the game for 'style' as much as to be competitive, and I can't figure out if this guy is worth taking at the cost of a landraider. I killed 1 guy per assault phase with him (Yes I counted.) So he killed 3 models the whole game, but probably tanked 4-5 AP2 wounds with Sanctuary 2++ Saves. Just not sure if I should keep him.

 

3. Vehicles. I played this badly, but really don't know the fix. My objectives had me trying to remove crappy things like... Drop Pods to get points where I never had ObSec. BUT the pods weren't real threats, so I found myself splitting my vehicle targets far too much and killing nothing..... this is something I gotta learn to contend with better.

 

4. No Pals of mine: Paladins. I know they don't get a lot of love here, and I sucked with them again, BUT I failed every single FnP save I had. I kept track and never made one. Ugh. Not sure if these guys are worth it.

 

5. The Psychic Phase continues to treat me like a baby treats a diaper. I killed my Libby again. I honestly don't know how people think the psychic phase is so abusive for GK's. I either play it conservative and pass very little tests, or I play the 'sure thing' and kill myself. I had a key moment where I got off the important Cleansing Flame rolls, periled for the third time on the Libby and his head blew up all over Draigo's sword. The timing was bad, as I needed him for other things which of course he was too dead to do. 

 

The Psychic Phase is certainly 'fun' as a GK but I hate the uncertainty of it.

 

6. Model count. Yea, I know it's supposed to be small but where should I be making up my numbers? With my list, I know it's even worse. I can't even fathom getting in a relic vehicle, or a Vindicare (or any assassin for that matter), or las Razorbacks, or a Stormraven into the game.

 

7. Armour. This was a pain. This army was super vehicle heavy and I felt it. Sure if I reached his infantry I could dissect them, but the armour was a real problem. The only reliable units I seemed to have were the Dreadknights. But I wanted to go after too many targets at once.... I was hoping Psycannons would be a LITTLE bit better for this, even from Termies I think I had 1-2 glances all game. The Dreadknights in close combat literally had to do all the heavy lifting which kind of sucked.

 

8. Interceptors. I can see in this list they are 'objective grabbers'. I lost them all in turn 4 to a Scorpio blast. This sounds silly but I wish I had more termies. lol 

 

The Highlights:

 

1. Desperation pays off: That Vortex that I got off for first blood on the Sicaran tank? Well it also scattered on his Thunderfire squad in a future turn and did D6. That Vortex might have had it's best game, and sure there's luck involved but it might have been my best vehicle killer!

 

2. Dreadknights. Against the horde armies I've been having issues with my Dreadknights, but this game they were good... he had to waste a lot of time on my Dreadknights with high strength AP3 shooting just to put some dents in these guys... again giving my Rhino some breathing room. I'm not used to this but I see the NDK's will always have a giant target on their foreheads, so I might as well use it to my advantage.

 

3. Close combat did most of my damage. If I take out the Vortex, my bread and butter was Hammerhand + Sanctuary + Termies + NDK's. Nothing else really did much at all... the power armoured guys all underperformed, but the previously mentioned stuff was gold.... if I got into CC, I felt a lot better. That's one thing I really like about this army.

 

4. Gate. I love it. It validates my original desire to play a decent Terminator army. 

 

So if you guys have any thoughts on my lowlights I'd like to hear it. I felt like even though it was a large win pointswise, my army had also taken a beating, and like you know, we feel every wound. 

 

Also I talked to my opponent and he wants a rematch.... because understandably he had no idea I could threaten his back line instantly like that and he had no answer in the early going. He put too much in reserve. I agree, and I'll confess the outcome could be VERY different against him next time knowing what he knows now. :)

 

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I hit so many squads, but get this, we counted approximately 35 out of 37 saves. Wow.

POWER ARMOUR!

But yeah, this is something I tell people all the time. AP is always better than trying to break saves. Because if they can save, there is a risk that they will. If they can't save, that's onle less failure point.

'Cleansing Flame' is especially bad against Bikers because it only wounds them on 4's.

I got desperate and my other Termie Libby cranked out a Vortex.... which has backfired on me with the deviation, but I already felt desperate in turn 1. lol So get this.... it's my one lucky moment, I get a 6 on the D chart and the Sicaran goes BOOM. First blood, but admittedly pure luck.

Haha nice. Sicarians are absurdly powerful, and functionally have replaced Predators in every army that can take them. Glad you nuked it before it could be an issue.

1. Purifiers in Rhino. As I had suspected, he did largely ignore the rhino because he was filling his pants over the Dreadknights. So I was sure to concetrate on their Sanctuary. But the Purifiers really sucked. They actually got to the show unharmed, out of the Rhino which still had one hullpoint left, however, they all died to a hail of shots. He just feared them so much he threw a ton of stuff at them.

That's the problem, sadly. They're just Tac Marines against enemy firepower. In all other aspects, Purifiers are amazing. I just wish we could run them in TDA.

2. Draigo. I'm just loving the model, love the background, and I confess I play the game for 'style' as much as to be competitive, and I can't figure out if this guy is worth taking at the cost of a landraider. I killed 1 guy per assault phase with him (Yes I counted.) So he killed 3 models the whole game, but probably tanked 4-5 AP2 wounds with Sanctuary 2++ Saves. Just not sure if I should keep him.

Well he's a better delivery system and bullet magnet, and he actually kills things. So he's better than a LR in most ways. But yeah, he's kinda better with regular Terminators or Centurions over Paladins.

3. Vehicles. I played this badly, but really don't know the fix. My objectives had me trying to remove crappy things like... Drop Pods to get points where I never had ObSec. BUT the pods weren't real threats, so I found myself splitting my vehicle targets far too much and killing nothing..... this is something I gotta learn to contend with better.

Yet another reason why drop pods are amazing. 35pt scoring, that is literally a waste of firepower to get rid of, is great at screwing other armies decisions. In general just ignore pods, kill his real threats, then clean them out afterwards when you take the marker. A single hammer is enough to get rid of it normally.

4. No Pals of mine: Paladins. I know they don't get a lot of love here, and I sucked with them again, BUT I failed every single FnP save I had. I kept track and never made one. Ugh. Not sure if these guys are worth it.

It's a 5+, and you pay through the nose for it on a tiny handful of models. It really sucks when you dice screw you like that though. But that's the risk with anything that requires a 5+. Unless you've got a lot of wounds or an already good set of saves, FNP is kinda eh. It's more like a re-roll to your invul in many ways.

5. The Psychic Phase continues to treat me like a baby treats a diaper. I killed my Libby again. I honestly don't know how people think the psychic phase is so abusive for GK's. I either play it conservative and pass very little tests, or I play the 'sure thing' and kill myself. I had a key moment where I got off the important Cleansing Flame rolls, periled for the third time on the Libby and his head blew up all over Draigo's sword. The timing was bad, as I needed him for other things which of course he was too dead to do.

The Psychic Phase is certainly 'fun' as a GK but I hate the uncertainty of it.

Yeah I Perils a lot more than the math says I should as well. It's frustrating, but it's just an aspect of our army you have to get used to. On the plus side, you did Vortex like a boss, so it's not all bad ;)

6. Model count. Yea, I know it's supposed to be small but where should I be making up my numbers? With my list, I know it's even worse. I can't even fathom getting in a relic vehicle, or a Vindicare (or any assassin for that matter), or las Razorbacks, or a Stormraven into the game.

Well we have no good FW stuff anyway, we have to Ally to get Sicarians or Contemptors etc. If you wanna bulk out your first, I'd suggest IG Allies. Skitarii are also an interesting choice, so are Inquisitional Henchmen.

7. Armour. This was a pain. This army was super vehicle heavy and I felt it. Sure if I reached his infantry I could dissect them, but the armour was a real problem. The only reliable units I seemed to have were the Dreadknights. But I wanted to go after too many targets at once.... I was hoping Psycannons would be a LITTLE bit better for this, even from Termies I think I had 1-2 glances all game. The Dreadknights in close combat literally had to do all the heavy lifting which kind of sucked.

It's how our army works. DK's do all the heavy lifting, the rest of our army does bits and pieces. GW designed it that way, so we can't really get around it.

8. Interceptors. I can see in this list they are 'objective grabbers'. I lost them all in turn 4 to a Scorpio blast. This sounds silly but I wish I had more termies. lol

Yeah again, PA on foot has issues staying alive these days. Interceptors are cheaper though, and much more mobile. I find they have their uses, but you have to keep them alive.

2. Dreadknights. Against the horde armies I've been having issues with my Dreadknights, but this game they were good... he had to waste a lot of time on my Dreadknights with high strength AP3 shooting just to put some dents in these guys... again giving my Rhino some breathing room. I'm not used to this but I see the NDK's will always have a giant target on their foreheads, so I might as well use it to my advantage.

If you have issues against hordes, take a heavy incinerator as your secondary ;) that and the large blast mode on the heavy psycannon vape hordes.

DK's will always have a huge target on them, because besides Draigo they're the only thing people are truly scared of when fighting us. Definitely leverage it. I've had people panic shoot missile launchers into DK's, only for me to tell them I still get my 2+ armour save. They also draw high Strength AP2 off your Terminators.

3. Close combat did most of my damage. If I take out the Vortex, my bread and butter was Hammerhand + Sanctuary + Termies + NDK's. Nothing else really did much at all... the power armoured guys all underperformed, but the previously mentioned stuff was gold.... if I got into CC, I felt a lot better. That's one thing I really like about this army.

Yeah it's a misconception some people have about GK. We're actually a melee Marine army, with decent shooting as our secondary trait. The problems you mentioned with Purifiers and Interceptors are that they often don't survive to reach melee. But if they do, they're scary to just about anything that isn't in 2+ armour.

Also I talked to my opponent and he wants a rematch.... because understandably he had no idea I could threaten his back line instantly like that and he had no answer in the early going. He put too much in reserve. I agree, and I'll confess the outcome could be VERY different against him next time knowing what he knows now.

He's probably going to swap one of his relics for a Deimos Predator, for its plasma destructor turret (fires three plasma cannon blasts). That or Grav-Centurions, which do horrible things to DK's and Terminators.

[jeffersonian000]

Great Batrep, and I'm glad our collective advice assisted you with a spectacular win! All of your concerns are good ones, and are there for you to think about when fine tuning for the next match. Personally, I'd drop the Purifiers and Paladins for more GKT, maybe play around with a CAD rather than the NSF, just to see how it plays out (I found that the NSF is just to good, but the occasional CAD will throw regular opponents off). Also, I cannot recommend enough a Knight Titan, it's a super-NDK that trades Shunt for the D.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Also, if you're gonna take a Knight-Titan, take Gerantius ;)

[jeffersonian000]

Grenaticus is greatness.

 

Pew Pew Stomp Stomp Stomp

 

SJ

[Prot]

I've never fielded a Knight. I confess aside from the odd game against them, I have very little info on them, and no idea what a Grenaticus is. lol. I guess typically we don't bring Super Heavies to games. 

 

Thanks for the insights. I guess I have to take my bruises as I attempt new units, and I know some of them are going to be suboptimal but I consider this all a learning experience.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Gerantius is a special character Knight-Titan. You can find his rules online, they originally appeared in White Dwarf. Just google it. Basically, he gets 3+ invul, IWND and re-rolls to punch stuff to death (also BS5 I'm pretty sure). He's a tad more expensive, but he's a wrecking ball they simply have to kill. 

[Prot]

Can I create him from the basic Knight kit? Or does he require a special kit or modification?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Can I create him from the basic Knight kit? Or does he require a special kit or modification?

 

 

Nah you just paint an Errant in his colours, easy peasy

[Aethernitas]

I've never fielded a Knight. I confess aside from the odd game against them, I have very little info on them, and no idea what a Grenaticus is. lol. I guess typically we don't bring Super Heavies to games.

 

Some people don't care that there is little to no fluff reason for a Imperial Knight to be integrated into a GK strike force whatsoever. I read that you actually do care for the fluff and style of your armies so it's totally acceptable to just play without Imperial Knights.

 

However, it is helpful to be informed about it's rules if you should happen to play against one. The occasional super heavy adds variety.

[Adeptus]

I feel like a Stormraven might have alleviated some of your woes. You could have deployed the Purifiers from it, directly into assault, and you gain the anti-tank weapons that you've already discovered we lack in the rest of the army.

 

Of course, finding the points is tricky.

 

Personally at 1,850 I feel like Draigo and two librarians is over kill. One librarian, using termies instead of paladins and the points saved by not buying a rhino should let you take a stormraven. And then even if you don't roll up gate, you still have the NSF deepstrike to help you out.

[Prot]

 

Can I create him from the basic Knight kit? Or does he require a special kit or modification?

 

 

Nah you just paint an Errant in his colours, easy peasy

 

 

Thanks I will look into that when funding allows. :)

 

 

 

I've never fielded a Knight. I confess aside from the odd game against them, I have very little info on them, and no idea what a Grenaticus is. lol. I guess typically we don't bring Super Heavies to games.

 

Some people don't care that there is little to no fluff reason for a Imperial Knight to be integrated into a GK strike force whatsoever. I read that you actually do care for the fluff and style of your armies so it's totally acceptable to just play without Imperial Knights.

 

However, it is helpful to be informed about it's rules if you should happen to play against one. The occasional super heavy adds variety.

 

 

I agree. We may not make a habit of casually including super heavies but they do appear. I was going to throw one in my Necrons, but maybe instead I'll get this guy and do him up like a supporting Inquisiton / Mimas / Titan Knight of some description?

 

 

I feel like a Stormraven might have alleviated some of your woes. You could have deployed the Purifiers from it, directly into assault, and you gain the anti-tank weapons that you've already discovered we lack in the rest of the army.

 

Of course, finding the points is tricky.

 

Personally at 1,850 I feel like Draigo and two librarians is over kill. One librarian, using termies instead of paladins and the points saved by not buying a rhino should let you take a stormraven. And then even if you don't roll up gate, you still have the NSF deepstrike to help you out.

 

I put a stormraven together. Screwed it up but a buddy gave me an idea on how to 'save it' by making the dreadnought winch (which is facing up instead of under the vehicle) into a modified 'teleport homer'. I think it will look fine. I have a second one in a box, but I think next game I'm pulling out Mr. Draigo for a Stormraven and additional Purifiers! 

 

I'm still tweaking the list to see what I can do but right now it's looking:

 

Libby x2

2 squads of 5 Termies (no paladins). (Hammers/Psycannons/etc)

1 squad of 7 Interceptors

2 NDK's loaded

10 Purifiers of various stuff in an Assault Cannon/MultiMelta Stormraven.

 

This comes to 1850 (wow still can't get used to that. lol)

 

Anyway it is funny to note that the mental factor of taking Draigo, I have found, is perhaps greater than his actual role. Maybe not... All I know is that I actually like him in the list. Yes it is a lot of overkill considering 2 additional Libbies and Paladins make it a VERY top heavy list.

 

That being said my opponents have viewed the Paladins as a very scary thing.... combined with the NDK's they almost ignore the Rhino once I explain what's in it simply because I Gate in turn 1 and there's this OMG, pant wetting, reaction.... I could tell them the Emperor is in the Rhino at that point, and still all they see is Draigo, libby, 5 Paladins, 5 more Termies, and 2 NDKs in their face and there's a puddle on the floor. 

 

This may change in time, but hey, I'll ride the wave while I can.

 

But as a result of getting the Stormraven in, plus a few more bodies, including odd man Interceptors and 5 more Purifiers, I lose 'super termies' and Draigo... and I guess technically a Rhino but whatever.

 

It'll be a very interesting experiment. I just could not 'comfortably' fit the Aegis Comms in the list without feeling too pinched for bodies elsewhere. We'll see if it pans out.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Comms Relay is pretty much essential for any army using Reserves. Without it, you're at the mercy of 3+ rolls. Admittedly, the best Reserve rolls of any edition, but you can still roll that 1 or 2 and get nothing, which is heartbreaking. 

[Prot]

Yea I'm used to Tigurius... I really hate having to include the Aegis for this... as the rest of the army does NOT want to hang around waiting for stuff to come in. It might be a risk I try for a while, and revisit the idea of 'giving away' 70 points. :)