capnsmirk Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Hey all, This is my first army post on B&C so please correct me if I've done something mega wrong. Also gotta throw a big shout out to the lads on the linked thread as it provided the light bulb moment which gave me my variation on the list. So thanks guys, love your work! Sorry I'd link or tag the guys on the thread but newb. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305576-1850-competitive-baal-strike-force-dc-heavy/ Quick background, I've been looking for a suitable codex to use for a Carcharodons army for a long time. I decided on BA because furious charge and rage suit the theme quite well. While i have IA 9&10 whose rules i could use for casual play the two big local tournaments don't allow forgeworld rules and units(which i get but also disagree with) so i need a standard dex to use instead and vanilla marines just don't quite have the bite I've wanted for this army. Also the more i play BA the more I'm inclined to say the Carcharodons theme will be almost purely visual. So I'd love some feedback on the list below. Captain +Jump Pack +Relic Blade +Storm Shield +Artificer Armour Librarian +Psyker +Gallians Staff +Angels Wing Furioso Dreadnought +Frag Cannon+Heavy Flamer +Drop Pod Death Company(10 man) +Power Fist+Thunder Hammer Death Company(10man) +Power Fist+Thunder Hammer Tac Squad(5 man) +Flamer+Heavy Flamer+Combi Flamer +Drop Pod Tac Squad(5 man)+Plasma Cannon Tac Squad(5 man)+Plasma Cannon Assault Squad +Meltagun x2 +Drop Pod(free) Vindicator+Overcharged engines Vindicator+Overcharged engines Predator+T/L Lascannon+Lascannon Sponsons 1850 on the buzzer. So this list just makes me feel happy for two reasons really 1: it's not so totally different from my previous lists/play style so i can relax a little and focus on learning my new dex and 2: it will allow me to use Death Company in a manner which will fit my intended theme. Obviously I'm using the Baal Strike force, +1 initiative is the bomb in my meta as there a heaps of marine players around and why wouldn't you use it? Objective secured is great but really...we're in red to make more red, right? :P Tactics seem simple enough, thanks again to the original thread for making sense. -Furioso/Tactical flamers/meltacide pods for first turn can deal with armour or infantry as appropriate. -Vindicators are my main tanks but hopefully the las pred will take a bit of fire for them OR pop tanks all game. -Lib and Cap join the DC squads and generally tank/buff them as appropriate. -Plasma tacs are literally points sponges/harassment units/objective holders. i like that the DC can either reserve or deploy to provide threat saturation. I feel like my opponent would be all slack jaw when faced with 5 very angry threats on my table edge hahaha My BIG questions though are what table should my Lib roll on? I'm pretty inexperienced with Psykers so I'm not too sure. And given i have two warlord options any suggestions as to which is the better choice? I do love the idea of red rampage on my cap for faux Gabriel Seth awesomeness. Where can i shed some fat for more effective units/upgrades? I'd love for this list to provide the foundations of a great list to come...i hope that makes sense. I'll be testing this out tomorrow as punching bag for a mate who is heading to a tournament so I'm hoping to give him a solid run. Happy to try and clarify any questions and thanks in advance guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Stick some siege shields on them thar vindicators! 10pts for ignore terrain checks is awesome, and you'll end up kicking yourself a few times if you don't take them. 5 - man tactical squads can only take one special OR one heavy weapon, you need 10 bods to be able to take one of each. Assault squads are the ones who can take 2 weapons for 5 guys. Give the assault squad sgt either a combimelta or two inferno pistols (I always take the latter), otherwise they are far less likely to do anything. Jink, cover and simple misses and non-penetrations means you need more shots to be certain. Are you giving your DC jump packs? I would drop the angel's wing either way, just my experience but you have more to gain by starting your DC on the board especially if you have a couple of pods coming down on turn 1. Deep-striking them has several disadvantages: they have a fair chance of not arriving until turn 4; when they arrive they are grouped together in a nice circle for the enemy to drop blasts on and are generally vulnerable, and the rest of your infantry on the board are more likely to suffer from enemy fire until the DC arrive. Not sure about librarians, as the psychic phase is very hit-and-miss and is only reliable for armies that have psyker builds. Sure, they can provide a great bonus IF you roll the powers you want (invisibility, prescience or forewarning, wings of sanguinus are probably the best for these) but even then, successfully casting them is far from given. In short, the points you pay for the libby will not make any contribution in a significant number of games. A priest would at least make them hit MEQs on 3+ in every round of combat. The problem with having one IC in a DC squad is that they are vulnerable to challenges. Just a few thoughts there, hope they help but that is indeed a good strong and fun list. Hope you do well with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I'll Echo what Shaezus said and also add the following: Captains are cool, props for using one, instead of the angels wings (on the libby) and relic blade a Valours edge would be better (AP2 Str/Ini5 on the charge!) You could swap the captain for a Sanguinary Priest if not and while it does buff your DC to WS 5, which is very nice, the FNP would be wasted. An alternative would be a chaplain for those nice re-rolls to hit. I love psychic powers and think the Librarian rolling on Sanguinary with a DC in tow is pretty insane, as you can buff yourself with quickening and force to hopefully get some nice Sr 7 (albeit AP4) strikes on an enemy to gib them before they hit you back. Plus if you get unleash rage all of your DC get an extra attack, which is just hilarious, 6 attack each on the charge! Another thing I can suggest is the Veritas Vitae on your warlord. It lets you roll twice on the strategic table for warlord traits (arguably much better than the standard BA ones) that can seriously give you some strong army wide advantages such as: 1. Conqueror of Cities: Stealth in ruins + Move Through Cover (Ruins) - Amazing for your jumpers as they no longer take dangerous terrain tests and get more use out of cover in their advance. 2. Night Attacker: Choose for night fighting and all models in your army have Night Vision - Great to keep your assault units safe for a turn while letting you shoot back unimpeeded with your plasma tacs etc. 3. Master of Ambush Warlord: 3 units (non-vehicle) have Infiltrate - Great to put your units even closer to the enemy, this plus the alpha strike potential we have is crazy. 4. Strategic Genius: +1 to Seize and re-roll reserves while Warlord is alive - helpful overall with pods etc 5. Divide to Conquer: -1 to opponent's reserves - one of the weaker traits, but could be handy against the right opponent. 6. Princeps of Deceit: During the first enemy turn, 3 enemy units take a pinning check - highest roll, worst one, weird right? Usually this will amount to nothing butif it does shut down his riptides for a turn who's complaining? Let it not be said we don't have the finest commanders in the Imperium I really like your list as it takes what we do best and meshes it together nicely. Another thing you could try is splitting one of the DC squads in two, one with a PF one with a Hammer and attaching the commanders to these. Target saturation is great and two ten man squads is probably overkill anyway Hope this helps! Edit: Also, I agree with BA making great Space Shark's! Give 'em hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnsmirk Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 Wow! Thanks for the epic feedback guys, so helpful! I've made a couple of the changes you guys suggested and will post the full costing later (in a rush to get to my game) To answer a couple of questions: - The DC do have Jump Packs i had included them in the cost of the squad just forgot to list them *facepalm* - Was never too fussed about the captain being there or not, i wanted to try and build a close equivalent to the Chap Master+bike+TH+shield eternal as BA dex would allow while taking advantage of the +1 initiative. One day i will test this build out but given the competitive nature of todays game I'll put it on the back burner. Quick changes: - Tac squad flamer spam...Let's just say i got excited with that one. Put in a Hand Flamer instead. - Added an inferno pistol to the meltacide assault squad. Not sure how i get two infernos onto the sgt? Can you explain the trickey on that one for me? - Added siege shields to the Vindicators - dropped angels wing - added Chaplain+Jump Pack+Veritas Vitae+Grav Pistol because the double warlord traits and re rolls sound rad! There's about 10 points spare in there given the changes but I'm not super fussed about them for today. Will give a quick run down on how the list goes against my mate later. He's either bringing Anti Tank Templars or Flying Nid spam. My money is on the templars though, he prefers them for tourneys generally. Cheers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovidius Incertus Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Sarge can take items from Ranged Weapons, which reads "may replace its bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with...". Ergo, swap the chainsword and the bolt pistol out for Infernus pistols. Dual wielding is allowed per Gunslinger (BRB, p. 42, under rules for pistols). Boom, two extra melta shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnsmirk Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 Oh man. We had a RAD game! Andy(previously unnamed mate) did bring along his anti-tank templars but in a way which is quite new for him. His list was basically 2x Rhino, 2x Land Raider, 2x Triple las preds, 2x Typhoon Speeders, a Storm Raven and approx 21 infantry. It was pretty tough to try and spot a target amongst all that AV12/14. Normally he would ditch some of that armour for more bodies but since 7th he's gone off 20 man crusader squads assaulting out of LRs...weirdo haha We played Emperors Will/Vanguard Strike. I took first turn which should have put me in control for the whole game as i had Vindicators and plasma tacs hitting his two preds, my pred hitting one of his LR, fragioso hitting his only exposed troops and warlord in some ruins and the meltacide between the two LR to back up the pred. Suffice to say he was sweating and i was stoked. But then i had some average rolls and only managed to take away some hull points and shake some crews, i did however cook away 4 bodies out of his warlords squad, 3 saves of which were look out sirs so i nearly had first blood and warlord on first turn! After that it was an arm wrestle with only first blood being the difference the whole way till turn 6 when he just managed to clear me off one objective giving him the win 6-2. We didn't really consider warlord and line breaker as significant as we both had those points, so in our minds it was really just first blood that allowed Andy to win. So much fun!! Enough mini batrep ranting... Sarge can take items from Ranged Weapons, which reads "may replace its bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with...". Ergo, swap the chainsword and the bolt pistol out for Infernus pistols. Dual wielding is allowed per Gunslinger (BRB, p. 42, under rules for pistols). Boom, two extra melta shots. Thanks man, that extra melta shot could have been the difference on T1 for me, gotta learn to look more closely at the wording. That'll be a permanent change to the list! So the list as it now stands: Chaplain+jump pack+veritas vitae 120 Librarian+jump pack+psyker 105 Furioso+frag cannon+heavy flamer+drop pod 175 Death company+Jump packs+power fist+thunder hammer 290 Death company+Jump packs+power fist+thunder hammer 290 Tactical Squad+Heavy flamer+hand flamer+drop pod 125 Tactical Squad+Plasma Cannon 85 Tactical Squad+Plasma Cannon 85 Assault Squad+Meltagun x2+Inferno pistol x2+drop pod 135 Predator+Twin Linked Lascannon+Lascannon Sponsons+overcharged engines 150 Vindicator+Overcharged engines+Siege Shield 140 Vindicator+Overcharged engines+Siege Shield 140 1840 So my Librarian had a killer game, rolled all his powers every turn, ended up dying to perils but spent the whole game buffing his DC squad so much that Andy thought he was my Warlord despite being told the Chaplain was at the start of the game when i explained the Veritas Vitae trickery, so that gamble worked wonderfully and exactly as i had hoped. But i really didn't need Gallians Staff as his squad was transformed by quickening and unleash rage into such an uber threat that he didn't need it. So I've dropped that for now. As above for my chaplains grav gun. His rerolls provided sufficient buffing that the gun was virtually redundant, despite getting to make it master crafted. I think given how much armour i was facing probably had something to do with that but still. *edit* totally and completely confused as to how we managed to think we could Mastercraft a weapon...i blame Andy as he was our rules reference for the game and i rolled warlord traits and he told me what i got. Lame. But now i know for next time. I've given the pred overcharged engines because i really hated not being able to move and shot at full capacity. so yeah, there's 10 points kicking about that i don't need...which is awkward haha Any ideas? Thanks again for the tips guys, this list played out so well!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Sounds like you gave him a very close run! 10 points that you don't need!? No such thing! A couple of melta bombs for your chap and lib could come in handy if you're torn between charging a vehicle or infantry, so you could split from the squad and be able to hit both, or an auspex on either of those could also come in handy for guiding some fire support. Personally I would swap the hand flamer for a combi-flamer. It's only one shot with the flamer, but if you ever get to make a second close-range flamer shot with that unit then you're lucky indeed, so the S4 AP5 will pay off vs the S3 AP6. Hope you beat him next time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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