Dante vs. Captain on bike

[Remtek]

Tried a decked out Captain on bike last game escorting my Sanguinary Guard (replaced Dante) and was quite happy with his tanking performance, i ran him with the ap2 sword.

 

Dante 2+ 4++ 4 wounds T4

Captain 2+ 3++ 3 wounds T5

 

If we compare the two in terms of survivability they look roughly the same. Dante being better vs bolter spam, and Captain being slighly better vs ap2 even with one wound less due to 3++. If we add a priest to the unit the Captain will still be majority toughness 4, but will benefit from being able to make FNP rolls from str 8/9 since these rolls are made individually. We don't really mind LOS'ing dakka to DC or SG as they are fairly cost efficient at this job.

 

Dante has more offensive output, this gap can be lessend from giving the captain a power fist and lightning claw (2 specialist weapons) giving him 5 attacks (6 with SG banner) on the charge. Being able to have the option of str 8/9 or str 4/5 with shred has some advantages, but the Axe mortalis will in most cases be slightly better. A fully decked out Captain is 35 points cheaper then Dante.

 

Now if you have any flyers/skimmers/JP units in reserve Dante with his reserve re-roll trait becomes the clear winner. But if you are starting everything on the board, the Captain looks slightly stronger, especially if your comboing him with a Priest he becomes a clear winner in survivability.

 

Only tried the new SG in 2 games, if they are WS5 it seems overkill to give the Captain offensive upgrades and just build him like a sponge (145 points) with perhaps a combi-grav to utilize his BS5. They do need someone to tank for them or atleast cover from other units. That much is clear. I have yet to see hit and run be useful with SG as they usually win combat in one or two rounds, but this also needs more playtesting.

 

Edit:

 

I also noticed issues with accepting challenges with Captain, as i could not allocate wounds to him from other sources. I'm pretty sure you can allocate wounds to a character that has refused a challenge even though he can't hit?

[Frater Cornelius]

That really is a tough call, but I would almost say Captain. You'll have up to 75pts elsewhere. SG already punches like mad and finishing too early isn't something you want. Combat that is :D

The T5 and 3++ is the real draw here. SG can tank AP3 or worse well enough on its own.

[Shaezus]

The comparison is thought-provoking. I've always ran SG and Dante together so far, even though I start everything on the board (recently using the priest as my warlord with veritas vitae) which means that by the time they get the charge, the SG are usually thinned out enough not to be overkill in CC.

 

Hit and run can be a massive game-changer, if you have better dice than mine that is. If you can lure your oppo into charging the SG in his first turn, you have a great chance of disengaging, gaining an average of an 11" bonus move in your opponent's turn and putting SG and Dante in prime position to cause carnage in your next turn. 

[Remtek]

I really love hit and run, but havent been able to utilize it with DC or SG a single time with the new dex. It might be RNG, but between Dante and CC specialized units they do so much dmg in the assault. I can get a 2+3++ Captain plus a priest both on bike for only 5 points more then Dante. Dante's trait and synergi with more shooty units (bikes perhaps) makes for great internal balance in the codex. Good job GW!

[Frater Cornelius]

My biggest issue with Dante's trait is that it triggers way too late. T2 deep strikes means less T1 kills and more casualties due to focus fire. It simply appears irrelevant next to drop pods.

[Remtek]

I think it can be good for Stormraven lists and null deployment, but i like having everything on the table. I have tried Dante in a 7man bike plus priest unit, which worked out great, Dante alone will do a fair bit of dmg while the bikes add a little. Without hit'n'run (a Captain) it would be much less effective. 

[Charlo]

Dante with Bikes seems really good for the majority toughness and tanking AP3 for sure. Plus he deals just enough Damage with bikes lesser output to ensure hit and run fun!

[Golden Aegis]

Majority 4 will null the captains T5 and I usually have very high str shots fired at my Guard squad, any S8+ shots will pop the captain because he lacks Eternal warrior. I do suppose its very meta dependant. But aside tactical reasons I like to have Dante run with my Sang guards because it is immensely fluffly!

[Remtek]

Majority toughness 4 for the bike captain will only change opponents to wound rolls, FNP is made individually per model so the captain will be able to fnp str8 and 9 shots. Same with Dante in a bike unit, he won't be able to FNP str 8 shots even with majority toughness 5. 

[Golden Aegis]

Wouldn't the instant death rule still take presidence cancelling out the FNP as well?

[Remtek]

Majority toughness is ignored when it comes to FNP and instant death. A t4 char will still be instant deathed riding with bikes. Same with a bike riding with jump units. So you roll to hit, wound and then look at the model being affected by the str 9 shot. He has T5 so instant death would not apply, if he dies and wounds spill over to the T4 instant death would be applied to them.

 

Dante won't get FNP from str 8 and 9 either as Eternal Warrior does not stop instant death, it just makes him loose only one wound.

[Jorre]

Looks pretty solid to me!