The Grey Knight 'Label'. It's starting to happen...

[Prot]

So it's starting to happen to me now.

 

I was the only one taking GK in my group and started with a .500 record in the tiny campaign games we've been playing. Now at 'full sized' games of 1850 I'm getting labeled as 'that guy'.

 

It's kind of a turn off to me. I won a lot with my Ultra's but frankly the lack of assault was boring me. I didn't stick them out too long before trying GK.... which I wanted to try them because of what I perceived as a codex that can be penal, but flexible. Not forgiving, but if you do it all right, you've got a chance....

 

Please keep in mind I'm taking without Cent-Gate, or allies in general.  My only real loss thus far has been against the ol' Lucky Stick super Nob FnP Biker list, with a flood of trucks. 

 

I've had some tough goes with the heavy poison spam Dark Eldar too, but so far I've won most of the games, minus the Ork Biker stuff....

 

Now I'm getting suggestions from my friends of what they'll have to do to 'beat my Grey Knights'... This is so funny to me because quite honestly they don't feel THAT potent. I usually feel like I MUST target prioritize VERY well or I'm dead. My small numbers always put me at some disadvantage.

 

But they don't see it that way. They see I dominate the Psychic phase, which is fairly true (but interestingly spicy against Nids) and otherwise I guess they lump me in with some kind of super force....

 

Let me be honest, I find this very annoying. I don't think I take optimized lists, and like I said no allies typically... Often the games have been 'called' before the end, and I get a sense of moral defeat from my opponents and I've tried talking them through what I"m doing and what the army can present to them if they do really bad moves... for instance, I'll forewarn them about trying to stick my in a tarpit when I have "gate" in the squad... stuff like that. I never smoke them on something.... always on the up and up so to speak.

 

So now I get the feeling already one guy is saying he doesn't want to play me at all with his army. lol (He's always had trouble though with any army imo.)  Two other guys are talking about changing tactics entirely to beat me. One guy is changing armies.... etc, etc. Someone at the store said there's no way in hell he'd play me now... (we were planning a game.)

 

So is this the way now? Is this what a Grey Knight player typically goes through? I could understand if I was bringing cents/Tiggy/Pods/Knights, etc, but I'm not doing any of that, and I think in part this may be fueled by the internet complaining about LVO builds or something.

 

I never had this with my Ultra's, even if I pants'd someone. I never had this with my Chaos even if I made some 'questionable' lists and skunked them... never had this with my Dark Angels either, except in the VERY beginning with my Ravenwing (6th ed). So this is new to me and I haven't experienced this since 3rd edition Iron Warriors.

 

Do you guys experience this as well?  Or is this just unique to my situation? Is it a case of them simply getting used to the army? 

 

I might be making a mistake asking the 'internet' for an answer to this but I did think this might be a good place to get a 'fair' response.

[Everon]

So it's starting to happen to me now.

 

I was the only one taking GK in my group and started with a .500 record in the tiny campaign games we've been playing. Now at 'full sized' games of 1850 I'm getting labeled as 'that guy'.

 

It's kind of a turn off to me. I won a lot with my Ultra's but frankly the lack of assault was boring me. I didn't stick them out too long before trying GK.... which I wanted to try them because of what I perceived as a codex that can be penal, but flexible. Not forgiving, but if you do it all right, you've got a chance....

 

Please keep in mind I'm taking without Cent-Gate, or allies in general. My only real loss thus far has been against the ol' Lucky Stick super Nob FnP Biker list, with a flood of trucks.

 

I've had some tough goes with the heavy poison spam Dark Eldar too, but so far I've won most of the games, minus the Ork Biker stuff....

 

Now I'm getting suggestions from my friends of what they'll have to do to 'beat my Grey Knights'... This is so funny to me because quite honestly they don't feel THAT potent. I usually feel like I MUST target prioritize VERY well or I'm dead. My small numbers always put me at some disadvantage.

 

But they don't see it that way. They see I dominate the Psychic phase, which is fairly true (but interestingly spicy against Nids) and otherwise I guess they lump me in with some kind of super force....

 

Let me be honest, I find this very annoying. I don't think I take optimized lists, and like I said no allies typically... Often the games have been 'called' before the end, and I get a sense of moral defeat from my opponents and I've tried talking them through what I"m doing and what the army can present to them if they do really bad moves... for instance, I'll forewarn them about trying to stick my in a tarpit when I have "gate" in the squad... stuff like that. I never smoke them on something.... always on the up and up so to speak.

 

So now I get the feeling already one guy is saying he doesn't want to play me at all with his army. lol (He's always had trouble though with any army imo.) Two other guys are talking about changing tactics entirely to beat me. One guy is changing armies.... etc, etc. Someone at the store said there's no way in hell he'd play me now... (we were planning a game.)

 

So is this the way now? Is this what a Grey Knight player typically goes through? I could understand if I was bringing cents/Tiggy/Pods/Knights, etc, but I'm not doing any of that, and I think in part this may be fueled by the internet complaining about LVO builds or something.

 

I never had this with my Ultra's, even if I pants'd someone. I never had this with my Chaos even if I made some 'questionable' lists and skunked them... never had this with my Dark Angels either, except in the VERY beginning with my Ravenwing (6th ed). So this is new to me and I haven't experienced this since 3rd edition Iron Warriors.

 

Do you guys experience this as well? Or is this just unique to my situation? Is it a case of them simply getting used to the army?

 

I might be making a mistake asking the 'internet' for an answer to this but I did think this might be a good place to get a 'fair' response.

That's a typical response. Been playing gk for over a year and just had a game vs thousand sons list. Second game I've ever had vs chaos. I brought scouts issadon the xiphon few dreadnought a termy and Libby. He had 2 sourcerors 2 full squads of tacs a rhino a hell drake and Ahriman. He quit at turn 3. Nearly tabled him, and this was a :cuss and giggles list to test. There was vven a lord of change. I got a feeling he was super pissed about it

[Flint13]

I don't believe that it's a phenomenon completely unique to the Gray Knights, I think it's more indicative of a poor response to frustration.

 

To wit, I've had my dark eldar Wych/Reaver army labeled as overpowered when I brought down a pair of Knights with 20 wyches and haywire grenades. First off, apologies if these players are your bros, but it's something I've seen often with players who have issues with loosing. Those with regulated egos tend to smile, shake and try a few new things next game. Those who don't radically alter lists, drop entire armies and point at anything they might possibly be able to argue over besides a mistake on their part.

 

Take heart, it'll blow over ^_^

[jeffersonian000]

The rules I live by when gaming are:

 

Shack hands with your opponent. (Physical contact has an effect of reducing social stress)

 

Be 100% up front about what you are taking, what you are doing, and why. (An open dialog removes feelings of dickery)

 

Get them to laugh at least once during the game. (Stress breaker, and adds to your authenticity)

 

It also helps if you maintain good hygiene, dress slightly above average, and smell nice. (I also flirt, but that's because I enjoy flirting)

 

SJ

[IndigoJack]

I don't believe that it's a phenomenon completely unique to the Gray Knights, I think it's more indicative of a poor response to frustration.

To wit, I've had my dark eldar Wych/Reaver army labeled as overpowered when I brought down a pair of Knights with 20 wyches and haywire grenades. First off, apologies if these players are your bros, but it's something I've seen often with players who have issues with loosing. Those with regulated egos tend to smile, shake and try a few new things next game. Those who don't radically alter lists, drop entire armies and point at anything they might possibly be able to argue over besides a mistake on their part.

Take heart, it'll blow over

In my experience, this 100%. Those who have seen my list know it's not exactly a leaf blower. My win/loss ration is so high because I'm a good player. However, that doesn't stop people from crying, "cheese" when they lose.

The rules I live by when gaming are:

Shack hands with your opponent. (Physical contact has an effect of reducing social stress)

Be 100% up front about what you are taking, what you are doing, and why. (An open dialog removes feelings of dickery)

Get them to laugh at least once during the game. (Stress breaker, and adds to your authenticity)

It also helps if you maintain good hygiene, dress slightly above average, and smell nice. (I also flirt, but that's because I enjoy flirting)

SJ

This is really good advice. I'd also like to add that you should be aware of how your opponent is feeling. If your opponent is getting frustrated, try and hold your excitement in when something awesome goes your way. Did you just force out a riptide with a psilencer? Great! but your opponent may not feel that way at the time, especially if he's already on his backfoot.

[Blackwinter]

i remember that when the new codex hits we were talking that it is not a competitive codex. what happened and why people are crying about GK now?

[Aethernitas]

They see me ownin, they hatin!

I got that label with Nids and GKs. What can I say - I'm just THAT good! Seriously though I dunno either what's up with that kind of demeanour. I play semi-competitive but always imo fluffy lists and I have hardly ever used more that one Raven or Dreadknight now have I played anything like Draigostar in earlier iterations of the codex. Still there is this palpable reluctance to face my GKs and our two daemon players outright refuse to play against my GKs as it is "obviously not balanced".

 

I think of myself of a rather well mannered opponent. I am laughing alot with my opponents when playing, I explain everything I do (I kinda moderate my plays) and I have no problem offering advice in the "what I would do if I were in your shoes" category. I actually brought that topic up a few times in my gaming group but most of the time it comes down to them saying that it is not fun to loose all the time. The most constructive things I get to hear is that the abundance of TDA in my GK list is annoying (I can see that) and that Draigo is extremely frustrating (I hardly even play him as I don't like named characters).

At least if I give them the option what they wanna play against they rather choose my GKs than my Tyranids so there's that...

[Gentlemanloser]

Players are hung up on 5th edition.

 

Tell them to stop living in the past...

[Captain Coolpants]

Usually people listening to Internet dickery, then they lose horribly, like once against us (even if they usually beat us) and then we're instantly demonised (no pun) forever.

 

I've literally had this happen to me. A friend of mine always used to say that all the Internet hate was stupid, and how he never had any trouble besting grey knights, but as soon as I started getting back into the game, and ** I ** got to be more competent, I started winning over half of the time.

Same lists, same units, that he called easy to deal with, soon as I become more tactical, my army was "cheese".

 

Same with my eldar, he's played against them 3 times, he's beaten them twice, and I've won only once, and I refuse to use more than 2 wave serpents.... Yet apparently... It's till cheese... I actually use the least competitive Iyanden ghost warrior list (all wraithguard). Although it sounds nasty on paper, it's actually horrendously bad in game, but his argument is just because it's the least competitive, doesn't mean that it isn't competitive, because it's eldar...

 

.

 

Mass impressionable Internet retardation syndrome I call it.

[Flint13]

Players are hung up on 5th edition.

 

Tell them to stop living in the past...

How so?

[Gentlemanloser]

The GK hate at the end of 5th was actually kinda deserved (although not the only singularily broken thing of that era).

 

And yup, this is a GK player admitting this.

 

Now days, the GK are hardly as game breaking an army as they used to be.  And deserve no lingering 'hate'.

 

Those stuck in the past, unable to let go of how borken the GK used to be, are living in the past. 

[jeffersonian000]

Well, I have been playing the same core list since 5th, with the only changes in 7th bring the replacement of Mordrak with Draigo, and the addition of the occasional Knight Errant.

 

Ghostwing in 5th was considered subpar, while not taking Teletubbies with Draigo in 7th is considered subpar. Yet 5 years with the same list gives me a slight advantage in that I'm comfortable with the tactics and strats. This is of course countered in my local meta by the fact that my common opponents know my list, my tactics, and my strats just as well as I do. Those that don't like change hate playing against a dynamic player, despite that player being just as unchanging as they are. I have embraced Maelstrom (over my initial distaste for it), because mastering Maelstrom makes you a better player. I play 40k for the mental exercise while being social. Pointing and shooting with a static army, in my opinion, is the epitome of mental numbing.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

I like change. But I like the change to be able to mix up and diversify my lists. I don't think I keep the same list for more than a game or two without tweaking something around.

And the new GK dex have limited this for me.

Personally, that's not too much of an issue, I go to any Codex/Formation/Dataslate I can.

But when you get limited to a single book, then it gets dicey. I'd hate to play the current GKs and be limited to Codex only.

[Deamon Wolf]

The rules I live by when gaming are:

 

Shack hands with your opponent. (Physical contact has an effect of reducing social stress)

 

Be 100% up front about what you are taking, what you are doing, and why. (An open dialog removes feelings of dickery)

 

Get them to laugh at least once during the game. (Stress breaker, and adds to your authenticity)

 

It also helps if you maintain good hygiene, dress slightly above average, and smell nice. (I also flirt, but that's because I enjoy flirting)

 

SJ

 

I have to say I tend to also follow this as it reduces the stress of my opponents , the main issue is the AP 3 eveyone is worried about that is admittidly i mainly play against marines but when i come up against a Deathwing or Wolfguard wing  list i have horrendous trouble wining

 

 

Players are hung up on 5th edition.

 

Tell them to stop living in the past...

 

as said by  Gentalmanloser most people remember 5th Ed grey knights when every model could cut through termi armour like butter and still tar brush us with those feelings, its unfair as we have been supre balanced to an extreemly low model count high threat , possibly one of the fasteat moving ( Dependant on models / Powers ) Anti Infantary armys around , if like Prot said we come up against a Mechanised Army we struggle I have been destroyed turn 2 by an Imp guard tank only list with plasma cannon lemon russ takns coming out the yingyang

 

that said I played a mate who uses a Deff Copter Ork army with 2 trukks 1 battle wagon 2 shoota boz squads 4 plasma cannons thinggy guns with guy with custom force feild and a tank buster squad with a maga nob and he just couldnt kill my NDK's which frustrated his plansd ( mainly as i used them as theat sacrifical units and captured objectives with my interceptors and gateing paladins )  

 

the entiraty of my Terminators and Interceptors were killed by the Plamsa Battries ( until my Paladin squad chopped them up ) so at the end of the game i had  my 2 NDK's and my palading squad ( hurt but alive ) and my Libby left  he called it turn 4 i felt very unsatisfied

 

best thing to do I find is apart from as suggested above is ignore what people say about the GK book, if they wont stop then sit them down and expalin how our army work and then explain our vulnrabilites to them, they will go away have a think and yes rewrite their list to fight against you, but that isnt such a bad thing as you will get more experiance against armies that are harder to fight against this will make youi a better general in the long run

[Reclusiarch Darius]

People have absolutely no leg to stand on if they're bitching about GK. We're at best a tier 2 army, and that's if you bring Allies and game us (ie Draigo+Cents, or landing NSF Terminators off Scout teleport homers etc). Pure, we're edging towards tier 3, because if you bring AP2 in sufficient quantities we just melt to you. 

 

People especially have no reason to moan about GK, when abominations like the Tau, Eldar and Necron codicies exist. We don't even register on the power level of those xenos armies. We bring tools that worry them, and we can eke out wins with smart play and good lists, but we're not as inherently powerful. 

[Deamon Wolf]

RD it dosnt matter what we think its the perception of our Dex for the rest of the community

[Reclusiarch Darius]

RD it dosnt matter what we think its the perception of our Dex for the rest of the community

 

 

I'm saying their perception is wrong and should be discarded. Anyway, none of the xenos players care that other people consider them broken. I hardly see why we should. If people wanna pretend we're as strong as Necrons etc, let them. 

[SyNidus]

It'll help as well when it comes tourney settings. I hate to be 'that' guy (you know the type, quotes sun Tzu and Clausewitz on the forum to back up his 1337 tactical prowess) but, This is precisely what Sun Tzu meant when he talked about winning a war without raising a finger.

 

I'd suggest swapping armies with your opponents. You get to learn how theirs work and show them how it's done, they get to see that smitin' ain't easy.

[jeffersonian000]

Smite'n don't come easy, Dawg!

 

SJ

[Prot]

The politeness thing isn't an issue. We're all friends, and we thoroughly enjoy kicking each other's teeth in and bragging about it the next time out...

 

It'll help as well when it comes tourney settings. I hate to be 'that' guy (you know the type, quotes sun Tzu and Clausewitz on the forum to back up his 1337 tactical prowess) but, This is precisely what Sun Tzu meant when he talked about winning a war without raising a finger.

I'd suggest swapping armies with your opponents. You get to learn how theirs work and show them how it's done, they get to see that smitin' ain't easy.

 

Literally, aside from my Necrons, I hate playing as xenos. I love playing against them though. The thing is I've started really understanding the army, and that doesn't make it better, really. I'll always say Grey Knights might be flexible in a weird sort of way, but they always require very efficient play.

 

After my last game, my opponent noted how many more models he lost, and I actually added the points up and reminded him that it was far more than he thought. I think this is a perception issue some people have who don't know what its like to play with 20 models at 1850.

 

When I was just getting my stuff assembled, I played a tiny list, squeeked out a win and then got told the army was super strong....

 

Then that makes me want to play his army because without saying so... I think he did it quite wrong. Spreading out with all his spam, not focusing targets.... really bad idea.  I reminded him while I have one model left in a squad, I'm still getting that as a scoring unit, or even a Warp Charge...

 

Every game so far, even if I feel I've gained the upper hand for whatever reason, one thing doesn't change; I always feel like I have nothing on the table.

 

That being said I am cruising for a total butt kicking.... I've been somewhat lucky. So one guy who is dying to play me (again) says he wants to take his tank heavy Astra against me. ( He thinks I won't be able to deal with all his armour and flyers.). The Ork guy wants a rematch... says he thinks the Warboss Nob/FnP squad can kick me in the titan. And the Ultra guy wants a rematch... said he played it wrong.

 

So yea, I'm the guy with the target on his back now.

[Deamon Wolf]

Brother for all their moaning one thing remains the smae they all wish they were as Cool as a knight from Titan :P :)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

The one time anything of mine has been called overpowered was in late 4th/early 5th with the Daemonhunters codex when my Grand master managed to use his nemisis force weapon on a hive tyrant dispite's it's immunity to instant death.

I will admit the power level of the 5th ed codex was one of the things that put me off getting it,that and the bad fluff, I was thinking of reusing my Grey knigths as a an Allied force for my Wolves of Salamanders maybe or in small games on their own, but if the reputation is that bad I'm not sure I want to.

[Deamon Wolf]

its really only people perceptions that were op with the army having the force and ap 3 apart from that we can be killed rather quickly due to the high cost of the models which means low model count

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Our time as the power army of 5th wasn't even that long lived. Look at any of the xenos armies. From 6th edition onwards (5th for Necrons), they've been at the top of the food chain, and the two armies updated or getting updated soon (Necrons just now, Eldar very soon) are getting upgraded yet again. Imperial Guard keep on trucking etc. 7th was a straight downgrade for us. 

 

5th was in hindsight a weird edition for us. PaladinStar really got by mostly on wound allocation and people forgetting S8 could ID them. Invisibility didn't even exist back then, neither did 'Forewarning', or 'Gate', or 'Sanctuary'. Dreadknights were strong but much pricier. And mech Purifiers was a tournament build. Also, we had Henchmen and Coteaz, which I believe was the dark horse of the 5th edition book. Their removal is the real problem for us now. We have no 'cheap' choices, either for scoring or firepower or utility. 

 

I personally find it amazing people still hold onto their irrational hatred of Ward and our 5th edition codex, this long after the fact. 

[Gentlemanloser]

It wasn't long lived.  But it shone brightly, and stuck in peoples memories.

 

DKs weren't the issue back then.

 

It was Strikes.  Stormbolters with easy Prescience, Psycannons pew pewing on the move.  Ignore Armour saves in CC!

 

Then we had cheap Rhinos to MSU to our hearts content *and* the most durable incarnation of Dreadnoughts there has ever been in recent editions.

 

With S8 TL Autocnnons to boot.

 

MSU Strikes + Super Rifleman Dreads that ignored the bane of vehcles back then (shaken/stunned).  As did our Rhinos.

 

 

Then 6th dropped, we got neutered, HellDrakes and Necrons got uber buffed and we faded to the background.