Strike squad madness

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You know whats also a terrible idea? Preaching the same dogmas again and again that may only hold true for your local meta while in the same sentence devaluing the gaming groups of everyone that may disagree by saying that their opponents can't even be decent players if they can't handle Strike squad spam.

Sorry, you're criticizing me for being consistent? Also, nice strawman, because I didn't do any of what you claim. All I said was, 'Strike MSU is bad and will fail against a decent opponent.' No comment on other people, or their meta.

All you accomplish with that is that you keep people lurking that may otherwise contribute to a constructive discussion and subsequently smother input and ideas that could enrich the gaming experience.

Which I didn't do, but okay. And if people feel reluctant to contribute, that's not my problem. I don't ask for special treatment, neither should anyone else. I also resent the implication that I'm somehow scaring people off. I get told I'm wrong all the time. You're doing it right now ;)

when I first joined this site, you were ever optimistic, and always had good input on things, but I've seen you devolve into an ever saltier sally. I don't play truly competitive games (everyone says casual games aren't competitive, but they all play to win) But I still have fun playing my knights, and although my winning percentage is only ever around half now, I still find it enjoyable. So what's up man?

Maybe you're a little bored? Maybe pick up a second or 3rd (or however many you have) army to release you from this stagnated pool of sadness you have for Le silver dudes. ☺

Ok dad. I'm actually getting into 30k Mechanicum. I also have Marines, and Tau. Doesn't change the fact our codex is very limited in options, and Strikes are bad.

I don't bother going to the Army list sub forum any more. If I read another "How's my GK army? I've got a Libby, GKT and DreadKnights" it would be too soon.

You can thank GW for that. They give us like 5 viable choices, duplication is bound to happen.

Honestly I'd go full strikes 4 squads with 2 psycannons and 2 hammers comes to 1040 in keeping with the pa theme I'd probobly use a brotherhood champion and fill the rest of my points with interceptors... I think would be the best use of pa units... though if you don't mind breaking the theme the ml3 libby is cheaper and better.

Amusingly, 30x Terminators with the exact same setup comes in at 1170, only 130 points more. So Strikes aren't even especially better at bringing more bodies anymore.

[Captain Coolpants]

Ok dad.

And don't forget to eat your vegetables!

[Gentlemanloser]

I love veggies.

 

Apart from Brussel Sprouts.  Ugh.

[jeffersonian000]

Strikes aren't actually bad. They are, however, nowhere near as good as GKT due the ppm and Salvo. Also, MSU PAGK can be quite a good strategy, given the meta. They in fact negate the "AP2 problem" that makes TDA heavy lists questionable. Saying something is bad is meaningless without context.

 

SJ

[Rurik the blessed]

Personally i love PAGKS, i  need to try a list like this... but i highly recommend the use of incinerators, you can max incinerators very easy. Combat squaded and DS on different points of the enemy DZ...

[ChaoticEric]

Have you considered using full Purifier squads, CS'ing 4x psycannons into one group for a pseudo purgatation squad whilst the other five advance? Whilst you'd lose the ability to deepstrike them, you'd not be required to take multiple detachments, would gain more warp charges, additional attacks and the very useful cleansing flames.

I have very mich considered using purifiers but I find equipping them wih mass special weapons a bit of a waste since their close combat excellence (and extra points cost) is then wasted now that their special weapons are not cheaper than others.

 

I think I'd go for a five man purifier squad without special weapons and a five man purgation squad with four special weapons.

[ChaoticEric]

Personally i love PAGKS, i need to try a list like this... but i highly recommend the use of incinerators, you can max incinerators very easy. Combat squaded and DS on different points of the enemy DZ...

I'm giving it a go this weekend. I'm already tired of the nowadays mandatory gk list with libby, gkt and then as many ndk as you can afford.

 

 

Another draft of the list I'm thinking of using

 

NSF #1

Librarian (ML3, melta bombs)

2 * 10 man strike squads (melta bombs, 2 hammers, 2 psycannons each)

2 Dreadknights (psycannon, incinerator, teleporter, sword)

 

NSF #2

Librarian (ML3, melta bombs)

2 * 10 man strike squads (melta bombs, 2 hammers, 2 incinerators and a rhino each)

5 man purgation squad (4 psycannons)

 

Comes in at 2000pts and change.

 

40 storm bolters (80 shots), 10 psycannons (44 shots) Incl dreadknights, 6 incinerators incl dreadknights.

 

I'll be facing necrons so it'll be interesting, key will be to keep them at 12-24" distance where I shoot twice as much as they do.

 

I think I'll form a fire base with the psycannon-units and put the others in a rhino each. If one or both of the librarians get gate I might give them a combat squad each with two incinerators to move up with the shunting knights for an alpha strike but at the same time I want the enemy to come at my deployment zone to bring them within 24" of my psycannons.

[Rurik the blessed]

I highly recommend to expend some points on the locator thing... not all the units will arrive if you'll split them.

 

so next turn, they will arrive exactly where you need

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Strikes aren't actually bad. They are, however, nowhere near as good as GKT due the ppm and Salvo.

 

Context indeed. ;)

 

I thought we were talking in codex here.

 

Strikes are great, if your choice are Strikes or Tacs.

 

If you're looking in codex, Strikes have nothing to redeem themselves with.

 

 

 

Also, MSU PAGK can be quite a good strategy, given the meta. They in fact negate the "AP2 problem" that makes TDA heavy lists questionable. Saying something is bad is meaningless without context.

 

They don't negate the AP2 problem.  They die to AP just as easily as our GKT, and now, we don't get enough Strike bodies to make the survivability trade off against our GKT.

 

Even if you face metric :cuss loads of AP2, GKT are still better than Strikes.

[ChaoticEric]

I highly recommend to expend some points on the locator thing... not all the units will arrive if you'll split them.

 

so next turn, they will arrive exactly where you need

What locator thing? I don't have one of those :)

 

I'm not sure I'm going to deep strike that much. As my firebase of psycannons have a limited range of 24" I think I'll have to sit back and let them come to me for a couple of turns before counter charging with what I've got.

 

If I'm too aggressive I'll split my own army in half where the firebase won't have range enough to support the alpha strike ans that would be awful :)

[Rurik the blessed]

I mean this thing...

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/SymbioJoe/homer.jpg

[Gentlemanloser]

The new Imperial Doh'cator Beacon.

 

;)

[jeffersonian000]

 

Strikes aren't actually bad. They are, however, nowhere near as good as GKT due the ppm and Salvo.

Context indeed. ;)

 

I thought we were talking in codex here.

 

Strikes are great, if your choice are Strikes or Tacs.

 

If you're looking in codex, Strikes have nothing to redeem themselves with.

Also, MSU PAGK can be quite a good strategy, given the meta. They in fact negate the "AP2 problem" that makes TDA heavy lists questionable. Saying something is bad is meaningless without context.

They don't negate the AP2 problem. They die to AP just as easily as our GKT, and now, we don't get enough Strike bodies to make the survivability trade off against our GKT.

 

Even if you face metric :cuss loads of AP2, GKT are still better than Strikes.

A combat squaded unit of Strikes in a Rhino are 4x more survivable versus massed AP2 than the same points in GKT. I'd still rather take the GKT because F Rhinos, but that is the "AP2 problem" Strikes can ignore. Do you not remember the arguments for PAGK over GKT back when GKT were 40ppm? The same arguments are still there, even with 33ppm GKT and Salvo Psycans.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

A combat squaded unit of Strikes in a Rhino are 4x more survivable versus massed AP2 than the same points in GKT.

 

Just how do you work that out?

 

 

 

Do you not remember the arguments for PAGK over GKT back when GKT were 40ppm? The same arguments are still there

 

Yes.

 

The durability was just about equal at 20ppm to 40ppm.

 

Changing the price skews the balance and makes GKT more durable than strikes.

[jeffersonian000]

Have to kill the Rhino first, then two separate units of PA.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Strikes aren't actually bad. They are, however, nowhere near as good as GKT due the ppm and Salvo. Also, MSU PAGK can be quite a good strategy, given the meta. They in fact negate the "AP2 problem" that makes TDA heavy lists questionable. Saying something is bad is meaningless without context.

 

Well not really, considering that AP3 is a lot more common and becomes excellent against a Strike heavy list, versus AP3 being useless against TDA mostly. Also, as I demonstrated earlier, you don't even get that many more Strikes. Its like 5 more guys normally, once you factor in upgrades. 

Have to kill the Rhino first, then two separate units of PA.

 

All of which are easier to slay than a single combat squad of Terminators. You kill the Rhino, you force them to continue on foot, which puts them out of weapon range for at least a turn, and they'll likely die before getting into melee. Terminators land Turn 1 and shoot things, then ask your opponent to remove them or get charged. 

 

If people are keen on using PAGK instead of GKT, I'd look at Interceptors or Purifiers. They both offer things Strikes can't do and they're arguably better than Terminators at many things. But GKT's are always going to be more durable. That's the nature of TDA. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Have to kill the Rhino first, then two separate units of PA.

 

That doesn't make them 4 times more survivable though...

 

You could make a case that you need more squads to take down Combat Squadded Strikes with a Rhino.  But that isn't the same as them being more durable.

[jeffersonian000]

Lanchester's Square Law. Due to be way units interact in 40k, the firepower necessary to kill one unit of TDA can only kill one Rhino at a time, of which two units of PA remain. Each unit of PA requires similar firepower to eliminate, yet each unit of PA can still move and shoot on its turn, requiring more resources to eliminate than the sole TDA unit. This makes a combat squaded unit of PA in a Rhino roughly 4x more survivable than a similar points in a single unit of TDA. Yes, GKT equal more wounds at 33ppm than they had at 40ppm, so the math isn't exact, but it still illustrates way saying Strikes are bad is kind of stupid.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

the firepower necessary to kill one unit of TDA can only kill one Rhino at a time

 

No, not if the 'firepower necessary' comes from two or more units.  Or a single unit with Split Fire.

[jeffersonian000]

 

the firepower necessary to kill one unit of TDA can only kill one Rhino at a time

No, not if the 'firepower necessary' comes from two or more units. Or a single unit with Split Fire.

Cherry pick from my post all you want to change the context, it does not change the fact that I covered this point in my post.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

It was the pertinent point that highlights the error witht he post.  No need to quote the whole passage.

 

You are incorrect.  Strikes in a Rhino are not 4 times more durable than Terminators.

 

I agree that in some / most cases it might take more individual units.  But then agian, in some cases it might not.  The number of units needed is rather irrelevant to the comparison of unit durabilty, as it depends *far* to much on the composition of the enemy.

 

It might take only 2 Squads of ML Long Fangs to destory a Rhino and two Combat Squads of Strikes.  While those 2 Long Fangs might not even kill a single GKT, let laone a Squad of them.

 

Why don't you look at the mathhammer behind the old comparison, and see how that changes with the decrease in cost of our new GKT?

[jeffersonian000]

I'm having one of those moments where I want type some scathing rebuke for not bothering to read my post, but that will get me politely spoken to by the Thought Police.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm having one of those moments where I want type some scathing rebuke for not bothering to read my post, but that will get me politely spoken to by the Thought Police.

 

Nah, I'm cool with it. Spill :) I type those rebukes all the time. I also call GML a troll all the time. 

 

But I'd actually say in this case he's got a point (he's doing that more and more these days). TDA shrugs off a vast array of ranged weapons, whereas AV11 and PA do not. I agree that diluting the enemy's firepower is important and it's part of the reason 'Combat Squads' exists as a rule for Marines. But there is far more to consider than just a unit's saves or AV. You also have to consider likely matchups, and also how the units are used and deployed. Context is more important than raw math. IMO, when you mathhammer, you should be doing it support a range of scenarios, not just in a vacuum of a specific matchup. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I also call GML a troll all the time.

Pfft. I've never trolled in my 8 years here. Played devils advocate, sure.

he's doing that more and more these days

You're just joining me on the jaded and cynical side of things.

Here's some mathahmmer for the thread.

Strike Durability;

AP-: 0.67

AP6: 0.67

AP5: 0.67

AP4: 0.67

AP3: 0

AP2: 0

AP1: 0

Average durability: 0.38

Per PPM: 0.02

GKT Durability;

AP-: 0.83

AP6: 0.83

AP5: 0.83

AP4: 0.83

AP3: 0.83

AP2: 0.33

AP1: 0.33

Average durability: 0.69

Per PPM: 0.02

There you go. I was wrong. Looking at a very simple distribution of armour saves versus weapon APs (and not frequency of facing AP ranges isn't even considered), on average, point for point Strikes are just about as durable as GKT (without Rhinos even).

I was under the impression this held for 20ppm versus 40 ppm, but maybe it didn't. Or the change to 33ppm for GKT didn't make a noticeable difference.

With durability a non issue, the major difference would be Relentless Psycannons, versus extra Storm Bolter Shots.

Edit: Didn't include the Justicar Tax on the Strikes. Doubt it would make too much of an impact though. ;)

[ChaoticEric]

Time to report back from my trial game.

 

The list I ended up running looked like this (2000pts);

NSF #1

Librarian ML3, melta bombs (warlord)

 

2 * 10 strike squads (melta bombs, 2 hammers, 2 incinerators)

 

2 * dreadknights (teleporters, sword, incinerator, psycannon)

 

NSF #2

Librarian ML3, melta bombs

 

1 * 10 strike squad (melta bombs, 2 hammers, 2 incinerators, rhino)

1 * 10 strike squads (melta bombs, 2 hammers, 2 psycannons)

 

2 * 5 purgation squads (4 psycannons)

 

 

I played against necrons which for various reasons was not a decurion detachment and looked something like this

Lord w. Warscythe

Cryptek w. Confligurationthing

20 warriors

Ghost ark

 

10 warriors in a ghost ark

 

5 immortals in a night scythe

 

2 annihilation barges

 

2 * 3 wraiths

 

Doomsday ark

 

5 deathmarks

 

Triarch stalker

 

5 scarab swarms

 

 

I won't write a full-fledged batrep but it was a slaughter on both sides. It ended after turn 5 and I had both dreadknights, the rhino and 9 PA left, he had the night scythe and 8 warriors left.

 

My overall "strategy" was to combat squad everything with justicar and two hammers in one squad and the two special weapons in the other. Purgation squad and combat squad with two psycannons all deployed in a corner with both dreadknights, everything else deep striked in and almost everything came in on turn 1. The entire battle took place on my right side half of the battle field as I wanted to keep my army tight together and avoid him being able to shoot with everything at me each turn. It worked reasonably well I think.

 

My conclusions are;

- Dreadknights are absolutely amazing and did almost all the killing, they rampaged through his army and pummeled most it into submission. The only thing that stood up reasonably well was (of course) the wraiths with a single wraith holding up a knight for three close combat phases before finally failing a single 3++. Everything else they ran into, including both lord and cryptek, was smashed to pieces by the knights

- Psycannons are really really good within 24". Their range and salvo-status is a real hindrance for PA but with S7, four shots and rending they can do some real damage to a variety of targets if they wander within 24" of the vielders. If there was an affordable way to "spam" psycannons and keep them somewhat mobile they could dominate the game

- I love incinerators, once you get them into range the only problem will be that you run out of skewers to thread the burnt corpses onto or that you kill so many models you'll fail your subsequent charge

- Storm bolters are not so impressive. I never got to shoot masses of them as the slaughter commenced immediately in turn one and decimated both armies by the minute and I was up against necrons which might be the most difficult army to kill but the storm bolters together killed about a handful of warriors and that was pretty much it. I really miss psybolts...

- PA die very quickly against shooting armies, 3+ saves are failed at an alarming rate

- Strike squads are not very good in CC against WS4 and T4 or better, 1 attack base just isn't good enough to cause enough damage

- If necrons are not organised in a decurion detachment and their reanimation go from 4+ to 5+ they go from game-wrecking to a very tough opponent.

 

So, how to spam psycannons? Lots of purifiers and purgation squads? Maybe I'll try that next time...

 

Edit; I might add that I won the maelstrom mission we played (escalation) but that was as much down to lucky draws but I also did achieve more board control than I imagined I would.