Strike squad madness

[Prot]

So how were you spamming all the psycannons on PA? Were you stationary?

 

Gratz on the win, sounds like a real blood bath. I know you knew going in that you were playing against Necrons, so it just made me think... what if you had 8ish Psilencers instead? Igniting Force, and putting him to a 6+ RP roll? (Just a thought)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pfft. I've never trolled in my 8 years here. Played devils advocate, sure.

Thanks to you, I have to get my pig's wings clipped again ;)

You're just joining me on the jaded and cynical side of things.

*hipster voice* I was jaded and cynical before it was cool, man. You wouldn't understand.

But for real, I started with Tau in 4th. I'm used to GW handing me a substandard product and getting told I'm just bad at the game. I used to believe it back then.

GML, regarding your math, yeah Strikes bring more dudes (roughly) for the same points. But Terminators shrug off a lot more weapon types in the game, whereas AP3 or even just massed saves put 3+ armour units down. Invul saves also (somewhat) factor into things.

Edit: Didn't include the Justicar Tax on the Strikes. Doubt it would make too much of an impact though.

It's annoying more than anything else. It also only features on Strikes, Purgators and Interceptors. Purifiers don't pay it, neither do Terminators. It's really odd.

- Psycannons are really really good within 24". Their range and salvo-status is a real hindrance for PA but with S7, four shots and rending they can do some real damage to a variety of targets if they wander within 24" of the vielders. If there was an affordable way to "spam" psycannons and keep them somewhat mobile they could dominate the game

Purgators are meant to do that (so can Purifiers), but no Relentless means it's stupidly hampered by the Salvo rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

GML, regarding your math, yeah Strikes bring more dudes (roughly) for the same points. But Terminators shrug off a lot more weapon types in the game, whereas AP3 or even just massed saves put 3+ armour units down. Invul saves also (somewhat) factor into things. 

 

If you can tell me the distribution of AP ranges to weapons, I'll add that in. ;)

 

I saves were covered in there mate.  If only you could roll an I save after a failed Armour Save...

 

With an equal distribution of AP values, Strikes are just as durable as GKT.  Depending on the Armies you face in game though, changes things.  If you face loads of ML Long Fangs, You'll find GKT infinetly more durably than Strikes.

 

The figures were on average. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you can tell me the distribution of AP ranges to weapons, I'll add that in.

I saves were covered in there mate. If only you could roll an I save after a failed Armour Save...

With an equal distribution of AP values, Strikes are just as durable as GKT. Depending on the Armies you face in game though, changes things. If you face loads of ML Long Fangs, You'll find GKT infinetly more durably than Strikes.

The figures were on average.

Haha that's too much effort for me. I'd definitely agree the amount of AP2 has exponentially increased in 40k over the last three editions. Add in that Terminators are generally overpriced (ours and Chaos Terminators are really the only ones who are costed properly), and things like Sternguard getting invented...

In context of GK, I'd say that Terminators do more than Strikes can. The only real things you lose out on are Sweeping Advance (not usually an issue, because you can escort units off-table if they break using faster stuff like Interceptors or DK's) and being able to fit more into a transport. Given we usually Turn 1 Deepstrike anyway...

If they die the same, but Terminators do more and are a greater threat, I'd say Termies still come out on top. At the end of the day, everything in your list is expendable. So long as you trade efficiently and make the enemy bleed harder, it's worth it.

[ChaoticEric]

They were all deployed in the corner but with LoS so they could keep stationary and fire every round. I was banking on the fact that since lots of Necron shooting is also 24", he would be advancing towards me as well. He did this and that of course helped me a lot. Then I brought down everything with deep strike in the middle of the bord between my psycannons and his army to incinerate and counter-charge.

 

If you have to move, psycannons on PA is useless with 2 shots at 12" range.

 

I haven't bonded well with the psilencers I have to admit. I don't have my codex with me but if I remember the psilencer right it's AP- and S4 so I'll be wounding on 4+ and he'll get 4+ save and 6+ RP but with psycannons I'll wound on 2+, he'll get no save and 5+ RP. The added advantage of psycannons is of course rending so it can threaten both AV and good armour when punting out 4 shots/dude (when stationary).

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

In context of GK, I'd say that Terminators do more than Strikes can.

 

Salvo Psycannons basically sealed that mate.

 

With our old Psycannons, it owuld be *a lot* closer between the two.

[Prot]

I understand the math supports Terminators, but every 5 minutes GW releases a weapon -capable- of AP2. It's handed out like candy now. The premium for terminator armour becomes less and less worthwhile.

 

I just feel in my gut that within 6 months if we revisit this idea, Terminators will be something reserved for HQ body guards, simply for those salvo shots or something.

 

I think the idea of mass Strike squads is 'fun' and why not try it? Against some army types it might be pivotal, and in the end I'm sure I'd learn a bit more about using them effectively in every day games as a result.

 

Personally I've always been drawn to the Terminator in GW fiction, as well as the representation on the battlefield but I think we'll moving this way more and more as every codex gets those stupid multi use weapons.... Strength 6, mutli shots with rending on the Eldar bikes is just more of the same. Expect more of this coming to a codex near you.

 

Not trying to be a doomsayer, just reality. Almost every codex has watered down the terminator over the last year a bit at a time. It may have been that we'd only see it in specialty squads.... always in pods, sternguard, etc, but now the common peon is toting something that 'could get lucky'....

[ChaoticEric]

I think maybe incinerators might be an alternative way forward. The challenge with them is of course range but S6/AP4/ignore cover are fantastic stats and bad news for anything ending up underneath the template. Perhaps specialising the army a bit more and having a backbone of two or three purgation squads with 4 psycannons each, some strike squads, purifiers or terminators with incinerators to hold the middle and roast anything before charging in and finally as many dreadknights as you have painted to shunt up and alpha strike them to the stone age.

 

Or build a very agressive list with two or three purgation squads with 4 incinerators each and figure out a way how to bring them into the thick of the enemy as quickly as possible?

[Zyphax]

Just my 2 cents on the strike squad madness.  I do think terminators are the go to troop choice but for having more physical bodies on the board PAGK will work.  Only problem is salvo kills us and at 15 points apiece i cant even pretend thats justified.  I think that makes incinerators the new auto pick for special weapons on PAGK.  And we have purifiers and interceptors for just a slight price bump over strike squads.  

7 swords, 1 hammer and 2 incinerators on strikes comes out to 230 and 270 for purifiers and interceptors. So for 40 points more you can have 10 extra attacks, fearless, cleansing flame, and 1 or 2 extra WC or 12" movement and 30" shunt.  

 

So take the 5 terminators troop tax as your HQ bodyguards and load up on purifiers or interceptors 

[ChaoticEric]

Just my 2 cents on the strike squad madness.  I do think terminators are the go to troop choice but for having more physical bodies on the board PAGK will work.  Only problem is salvo kills us and at 15 points apiece i cant even pretend thats justified.  I think that makes incinerators the new auto pick for special weapons on PAGK.  And we have purifiers and interceptors for just a slight price bump over strike squads.  

7 swords, 1 hammer and 2 incinerators on strikes comes out to 230 and 270 for purifiers and interceptors. So for 40 points more you can have 10 extra attacks, fearless, cleansing flame, and 1 or 2 extra WC or 12" movement and 30" shunt.  

 

So take the 5 terminators troop tax as your HQ bodyguards and load up on purifiers or interceptors

 

Only real drawback with purifiers (besides that they die just as easily as a 14p marine but at 25pts each base) is their lack of mobility/deep strike, you have to buy them a transport to get them into the thick of it as quickly as possible or bank on a librarian pulling gate.

[ChaoticEric]

Hmmmm...

 

Maybe a list of two purgation squads with four incinerators each in rhinos, draigo and a squad of purifiers woth two or four incinerators, two dreadknights amd then terminators woth psycannons for whatever points are left?

 

Rhinos try to rush forward in cover, dreadknights shunts up, terminators deep strike and draigo gates up with purifiers. 2nd turn whatever is left on the table incinerate and then charge the scariest things the enemy has to offer?

 

Edit; at second thoughts I'd skip draigo, it's just too expensive to run two NSF's with a librarian each and draigo. Between them the librarians have a good chance of pulling gate and it's also possible to buy an additional rhino as a back up for them,

[Zyphax]

 

Just my 2 cents on the strike squad madness.  I do think terminators are the go to troop choice but for having more physical bodies on the board PAGK will work.  Only problem is salvo kills us and at 15 points apiece i cant even pretend thats justified.  I think that makes incinerators the new auto pick for special weapons on PAGK.  And we have purifiers and interceptors for just a slight price bump over strike squads.  

7 swords, 1 hammer and 2 incinerators on strikes comes out to 230 and 270 for purifiers and interceptors. So for 40 points more you can have 10 extra attacks, fearless, cleansing flame, and 1 or 2 extra WC or 12" movement and 30" shunt.  

 

So take the 5 terminators troop tax as your HQ bodyguards and load up on purifiers or interceptors

Only real drawback with purifiers (besides that they die just as easily as a 14p marine but at 25pts each base) is their lack of mobility/deep strike, you have to buy them a transport to get them into the thick of it as quickly as possible or bank on a librarian pulling gate.

 

 

 

True if you want to spam PA then space marines would be the way to go.  As far as transports i know rhinos die to easy, land raiders cost too much and storm ravens keep too much in reserve but we cant have everything we want, unlike the new eldar and necrons.

[ChaoticEric]

True if you want to spam PA then space marines would be the way to go. As far as transports i know rhinos die to easy, land raiders cost too much and storm ravens keep too much in reserve but we cant have everything we want, unlike the new eldar and necrons.

If they'd made the psycannon assault 4 we'd still be kicking behind :)

[Gentlemanloser]

If Psycannons were Assault 4, we'd be spamming Purgation units, with minimum Strikes for Troops.

 

GKT would largely be ignored.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

The core of old Grey knights was grand master and strike squads in a land raider and a crusader, whilst I no longer have the crusader I've been thinking of getting a redeemer as a replacement, and so I was thinking maybe have the two full size strike squads with teleport homers on the justicar in land raiders and then have for either hq/purifiers/terminators/extra strike squads deep strike in, maybe have them as msu with incinerators and psycannons as the teleport homers would give the potential to hopefully deepstrike them in close enough to use them.

I'm thinking it could be quite deadly at 1000-1500pts where most forces wouldn't have enough weaponry to stop two land raiders before they could get their contents and teleport homers in the enemy face.

[Zyphax]

True if you want to spam PA then space marines would be the way to go. As far as transports i know rhinos die to easy, land raiders cost too much and storm ravens keep too much in reserve but we cant have everything we want, unlike the new eldar and necrons.

If they'd made the psycannon assault 4 we'd still be kicking behind

We all saw the psycannons going salvo before the codex drop and to be honest they were a little OP so im not even mad we lost those. But the psybolts and +1I halberds which put us above space marines made us feel more elite. If we kept those then I think strike squads would been seen more, especially in numbers.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Salvo is an abomination of a rule and no weapon should be saddled with it. It manages to combine the drawbacks of a Heavy weapon (basically useless unless stationary, can't charge after firing) but it's worse than a Heavy weapon (none of the Salvo weapons have significant range or even damage output) whilst looking like a rapid-fire weapon on the move (ie shoots at half range). 

 

Our psycannons were fine as Heavy 4/Assault 2, it let our PA units still contribute whilst on the move, but made Relentess or stationary still attractive for other reasons. For example, in the old codex, Strikes and Terminators had the same psycannon output on the move. Strikes however had more wounds, more storm bolter, and more psycannon if they went stationary. 

 

The increase in AP2 hurts 3+ save units as well, don't forget. So it's not like it magically make Strikes or Purgators better. They don't even have the fig-leaf of 5+ invul save which TDA has. The only real upshot is that Terminators are on average gonna die as fast as PA. Which is bad, but it doesn't make PA better. 

[Gentlemanloser]

More bodies.

 

If you only face AP2+, then point for point Strikes are better as you get more wounds.

[Prot]

More bodies.

 

If you only face AP2+, then point for point Strikes are better as you get more wounds.

 

In a nutshell that's the gut feeling I have too. I don't 'only face AP2' but like I said it feels so incredibly abundant now I'm looking at expanding my PA portions of the army and at least testing this out.

 

I know we hate rhino's. I know the math favours the Terminator, but maybe this is a meta thing but I'm starting to think spamming PA and Rhino's might be worth testing.

 

The thing is I'm winning the majority of my games, especially lately. And I see my opponents definitely changing their mindsets and their lists as a result (no one else in my meta is playing nearly full termie lists but me.)

 

There are two things working against the Terminator right now that I see locall: Xenos poo spam. (They throw enough of it at the wall, it starts sticking.) This would be your Dark Eldar, and even Orks, except the latter definitely assaults better (stupid lucky stick bikers. lol ) Secondly, it's the availability of AP2, even in 'lucky' situations, rending, bladestorm, etc.

 

I think this will be the next phase of my army. If for nothing else but to throw a wrench in my local player's expectations and see what happens.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

More bodies.

 

If you only face AP2+, then point for point Strikes are better as you get more wounds.

 

That's not the whole story though. They also die to AP3, and they lose more dudes to massed fire on average (about twice the rate of death to forced saves). Strikes are also substantially worse in melee combat, unless you spring for falchions. Add in no Relentless, and you've got a unit that neither outshoots or brings significantly greater resiliance over Terminators. Point is, AP2 deletes both of them. But the remnants leftover from getting shot by AP2 don't hold a candle to even 2-3 Terminators as a threat. 

In a nutshell that's the gut feeling I have too. I don't 'only face AP2' but like I said it feels so incredibly abundant now I'm looking at expanding my PA portions of the army and at least testing this out.

 

I know we hate rhino's. I know the math favours the Terminator, but maybe this is a meta thing but I'm starting to think spamming PA and Rhino's might be worth testing.

 

The armies with obnoxious levels of AP2 will ruin AV11 very handily. Tau, Eldar, Imperial Guard, Skitarii...none of them lack anti-transport firepower. You don't even get significantly more Strikes for the points investment. Also, you have to deploy normally and run the gauntlet of at least 2 turns of shooting. Terminators land Turn 1 in the enemy's face and demand they either die now or they will charge next turn. Also, 'Rites' means you Run+Shoot with those Terminators, so even if you need to land back further due to castling tactics, you're still out of your DZ anyway. Deployment matters just as much as numbers in 40k. 

The thing is I'm winning the majority of my games, especially lately. And I see my opponents definitely changing their mindsets and their lists as a result (no one else in my meta is playing nearly full termie lists but me.)

 

There are two things working against the Terminator right now that I see locall: Xenos poo spam. (They throw enough of it at the wall, it starts sticking.) This would be your Dark Eldar, and even Orks, except the latter definitely assaults better (stupid lucky stick bikers. lol ) Secondly, it's the availability of AP2, even in 'lucky' situations, rending, bladestorm, etc.

 

Dark Eldar spam AP2 actually, so they don't even need to force saves. They just delete DK's and Terminators if they alpha-strike you. 

Orks actually have the worst firepower against us, because Lootaz won't bring down DK's reliably, and they'll only get Terminators if you fail armour saves. Their danger is in melee, where they can swamp you in Boyz and prevent you getting onto objectives. MANZ are also annoying if you can't get DK's into them fast enough. 

Rending and Bladestorm are chancy though, as we know with our psycannon firepower. That's not the real issue. The real issue is stupid long-range blast/multiple shots AP2 just deleting our units before they so much as reach weapon range. Tau and Eldar being the worst offenders, but IG can do it too with some builds. 

 

I think this will be the next phase of my army. If for nothing else but to throw a wrench in my local player's expectations and see what happens.

 

 

If you wanna really screw with people, go Interceptor spam. Turn 1, your entire army moves 30" and incinerator+storm bolters their gunline. DK's flank and crack open vehicles with their firepower and melee. Also, Interceptors can take falchions and a hammer Justicar and still be reasonably priced (151 for a combat squad is decent).