Radium Jezzail, Rad Poisoning, and the Sniper rule

[jbrebel]

Just a lurker coming out of the woodwork to ask a question. How would the rule for rad poisoning and sniper work for the Jezzail on a roll of 6 to wound? Would the extra wound generated from rad poisoning generate another AP2 or an AP5 wound?  Thanks 

 

JB

[CommodusXIII]

Tough one... I tend to take a conservative route, and would use AP 5 myself.  However, I think AP 2 does have a strong case as well.  I think this is one that requires a FAQ, otherwise make a gentleman's agreement with your opponent.

[Aethernitas]

I think the general conses in most forums I read is that the additional wound is AP 2 but I would let the Skitarii codex sink in for a bit and see what the community agrees on (IF it does).

[Brother Amarel]

I would also be in the AP2 camp (as you're generating the extra wounds off of that hit).

[DietOfLiquor]

My thought is that since it benefits from Sniper and generates and extra wound on a 6, that it also benefits from the sniper special rule as it's still being fired at the same profile.

[Vel'Cona]

Hmm, I expect a week 1 FAQ on this 'dex.  That said, we're a few days post-release now, so GW hasn't busted the timer yet.  Though they have been really on the ball this year with FAQs.  Probably pressure from that other game.

[jbrebel]

Thank you all for the input.

 

JB

[Zembar]

On the ball with FAQs you say? I'll let you know when we get the FAQ for the GK codex to resolve the 5-6 rules that nobody can agree on because they are badly worded and/or conflicting.

 

I wouldn't necessarily hold my breath.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I don't think the extra wound would need to roll for Armor Penetration- from what I understand, the bullet itself is radioactive. It causes one wound the way a regular bullet does (by piercing the target's body), and if the bullet is still INSIDE THE TARGET, its radioactivity will allow it to continue damaging the target it is ALREADY INSIDE.

[Aethernitas]

I don't think the extra wound would need to roll for Armor Penetration- from what I understand, the bullet itself is radioactive. It causes one wound the way a regular bullet does (by piercing the target's body), and if the bullet is still INSIDE THE TARGET, its radioactivity will allow it to continue damaging the target it is ALREADY INSIDE.

 

That would makes sense IF GeeDub would actually base their rules on fluff. As it is I can picture how the weapon works fluffwise but it has no influence on the rule interpretation.

[Charlo]

You have rolled to wound. You have rolled a six, causing the wound to be AP2 and cause an additional 2 wounds from the same attack therefore using the same profile IMO.

 

Now, as these are precision shots can you allocate the three of these around or does it need to be to one model until it is removed and then others if wounds are remaining?

[Aethernitas]

I don't have my rulebook with me right now but I think you allocate the wound not the hit (as in pretty much any case) therefore if you roll a 6 to hit which makes it a precision shot and then manage to roll another 6 on that precision shot you get to allocate all the wounds resulting from the shot.

[CommodusXIII]

The rule for Rad Poisoning says that each wound is allocated and rolled against separately, so you can put them on whoever you want.

[FashaTheDog]

Look, this is really simple to deal with. Just do what I do and never roll a '6' except for leadership tests.

[Vel'Cona]

The rule for Rad Poisoning says that each wound is allocated and rolled against separately, so you can put them on whoever you want.

 

See, that could be read two ways:

 

1.  You allocate the 2 wound hits separately from your normal 1 wound hits.

 

2.  You allocate each generated wound (treating the doubled wounds as independent wounds) separately.

 

I read the rule several times and I can't decide which they intended.  Honestly, it's a shoddily written rule.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

My thoughts:

Rad poison triggers on a to wound-roll, precision shot on to hit, so the extra rad wounds are not automatically precision shots (that would require a 6 followed by a 6).

 

I don't believe the "allocate separately" means that the controlling player gets to place them, as with precision shots. I believe it means that the dual-wound effect hits the unit, and thus get auto-allocated to the closest enemy, rather than the same model. Compare it with the vindicate sniper's turbo-penetrator, where all hits strike the same target, not the same unit.

 

Also, I'm not too sure there are two additional wounds, I'd say two wounds total for a rad poison-triggered wound. "A to wound-roll of 6 causes two wounds on the target unit, regardless of toughness". Nothing about additional wounds, as the taser effect has.

 

Though I would lean towards the dual wounds from rad poison being ap2. The 6 required to trigger rad poison also triggers ap2 due to sniper, and in my mind the single ap2 wounds simply becomes two. Look at the relic pistol. It has a rule that gives it three hits upon hitting with its single attack. No one would argue that those three don't all keep the special rules for the gun, right? (I know it's not exactly the same thing, hitting vs wounding, but...)

 

So, in my mind, it goes like this:

One jezzail fires upon a MEQ unit. To hit: 4, 5. Two hits. Wounding time: 4, 6. One normal wound, two ap2 wounds. None are precision shots, all go towards the unit. The attacks are different now though, ap2 vs ap whatever it normally has. This means two groups of attacks, and the firing player shuld thus choose wether to apply both auto-kills first, or the saveable attack first.

[CommodusXIII]

Also, I'm not too sure there are two additional wounds, I'd say two wounds total for a rad poison-triggered wound. "A to wound-roll of 6 causes two wounds on the target unit, regardless of toughness". Nothing about additional wounds, as the taser effect has.

 

You are correct - Rad Poisoning generates a total of 2 wounds, Taser generates a total of 3 hits.

[MaulerUK]

Being a qualified IT tech I look at rule logic exactly the same way as file/folder security filters access.  There's four kinds of access to folders/files, an:

 

Excplicit Allow - This specifically allows a named group or user to access a resource.

Inherited Allow - This is access inherited from a connection to a specified allow (like a group/user belonging to a parent group that has access).

Implied Deny - This is the default state in which no-one has access to the resource.

Explicit Deny - As you can guess, this specifically denies access to a resource and overrides an explicit allow.

 

Priority is: Explicit Deny -> Explicit Allow -> Inherited Allow -> Implied Deny.

 

Translating this to 40k terms:

 

Implicit denial is the core of a permissive ruleset.  You can't do anything until the rules permit it, thus while *everything* isn't specifically not allowed it is implied by virtue of having rules to follow.

 

The BRB then sets out an expansive set of explicitally allowed actions for gameplay as the core of the game.  Some explicitally denied rules are present also, like charging from reserves.

 

A codex then builds on the core rules by explicitally allowing more actions, overriding the core ruleset where conflicts occur.

 

TL; DR - So basically if a rule permits something under certain conditions, that something goes unless it's specifically stated otherwise as a denial.

 

In the case of rad wounds from a Jezzoon going by the above logic all conditions apply thanks to the Sniper USR, Rad Poisoning rule and the weapon's profile.  6s to hit are precision shots, 6s to wound are AP2 and cause two wounds as there's no specific wording that prevents that.  Seems a bit OP and should be FAQed so that the extra wound is AP5 but I have to follow my own logic and run them at AP2.

[Vel'Cona]

Haha, using geek knowledge to attempt to explain geek questions. Geekception?

In either case, I like the rationale here, but I think we're missing the crux of the problem: Why are we swapping the beautiful Taser Lance for two so-so Sniper shots? Isn't this kind of defying the entire point of the Dragoons?

[Annatar Giftbringer]

That is why I believe the extra rad wounds are ap2, meaning you trade the awesome melee weapon for a potentially devastating character* sniping platform. Two "super sniper" shots, potentially whacking up to four targets or insta-gibbing a captain, pew pew! Now imagine an entire squadron firing...

 

*including of course special weapons, important banner carriers, squad leaders and so on :)

[Charlo]

From a fluff perspective it makes sense they are AP2 aswell, as it's like a swift double tap to the head of the target.

[Aethernitas]

From a fluff perspective it makes sense they are AP2 aswell, as it's like a swift double tap to the head of the target.

Actually from a fluff perspective it doesn't make sense as the additional wounds represent extreme radiation poisoning

[MithrilForge]

From a fluff perspective it makes sense they are AP2 aswell, as it's like a swift double tap to the head of the target.

Actually from a fluff perspective it doesn't make sense as the additional wounds represent extreme radiation poisoning

Lets just say from a fluff perspective the round has entered said "head" and Rad poison has somehow caused further "Expansion" in the general "Grey Matter" area where said round ended its forward movement...

Mithril

[Annatar Giftbringer]

That is why I believe the extra rad wounds are ap2, meaning you trade the awesome melee weapon for a potentially devastating character* sniping platform. Two "super sniper" shots, potentially whacking up to four targets or insta-gibbing a captain, pew pew! Now imagine an entire squadron firing...

*including of course special weapons, important banner carriers, squad leaders and so on :)

Of course, I should have added monstrous creatures to the list above. Ap2 combined with sniper should take down anything with a toughness value :)