Obeliske Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Just a warning this is a bit of a wall of text I start with some explaination of why I'm asking and then there are several questions at the end http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c944477abc92c1c101da485e07ff06d8.gifSo I was looking up something the other day and I came across the Power of the Machine Spirit special ability. Well... a search online did not help as there are literally hundreds of pages and posts going back as far as 2010 (and probably earlier) on it with different people's ideas about how it works and I love stuff like that so after several hours or research and then finally going to get my books out myself and looking into it I thought I'd put in my two cents and see what people say. First off I thought I'd start with the relevant definitions.PotMS - states you can fire one additional weapon at full BS then normally permitted. In addition this weapon can be fired at a different target unit then any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.Snap Shot - states that when you are forced to snap shot your shots are counted as being BS 1 for the purpose of these shots, it also states that snap shots can only be modified by something that specifically states they modify snap shots.The argument I've seen on this is that PotMS doesn't SPECIFICALLY state that it modifies SS (off topic if they had listed every possible scenario that could modify SS they would probably need a lot of space and make it very hard to change things in the future). I've seen multiple people create artificial barriers for when it does and doesn't work such as when your tanks shaken vs. when you rush your tank.I argue that you receive an additional shot at full BS regardless of the SS for two reasons.1, The wording and order of actions of PotMS as stated "You may fire an additional weapon at full BS then normally permitted". If you could normally shoot 0 at full BS because of snap shots then your new total becomes 1 etc. I'd like to point out that obviously if your unable to fire at all then your obviously unable to fire still as it does state your firing is subject to the normal rules for shooting.2, As I stated if they were to state on the page all the ways in which your SS BS could be affected they would be severly limiting their own growth with the game (case in point look at all the data slates we've been getting recently I may have access to them while my opponent may not and somebody would have to know the rules) as well many people would simply point to this and claim it to be a comprehensive list. I will concede that PotMS does NOT specifically state that it affects SS however as the PotMS single shot would not be a SS it should not have to be listed as per my first point.As support of this I present a claim by a poster "bigstoney" who argues the other side of the argument and then claims to have phoned the GW hotline to receive an answer and then explaigns what he was told. www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/2t5zef/Storm_raven_questions_skies_of_fury_while_zooming/I see no reason to doubt this as time stamps are on the page showing when he was making his posts.At this point I assume I have made my point that regardless of SS you receive an additional shot in all cases when PotMS applies and would like to start with my questions if you disagree with my assessment please assume I'm right simply for the case of these questions. Feel free to correct my in PM or as an addendum to your posts I have no problem being wrong if you can show it.How does PotMS interact with flyers according to the rules shots at flyers are resolved as SS which given the above would mean a single weapon could be shot at them without SS which in the case of for example the Astra Militarums Punisher tank main cannon could be as many as 20 shots. I can see the argument being made for the Hard to Hit rule which states "shots can only be resolved as snapshot's unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule". I'd like to point out two things here before proceeding if bigstoney really made that call then GW has ruled that PotMS has priority and overwrites the HtH rule also Skyfire itself does not alter your BS simply "treats" your BS as 1. However as written I think the HtH rule overwrites PotMS as it's more specific as it states "all" shots can only be resolved as snapshots. The problem becomes at this point I believe the order of actions. During the shooting phase you declare your targets then HtH comes into effect then after all shooting PotMS does which means you get that single unmodified shot. What do you guys think here?According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen).On to easier and less complex questions!According to the rules ordinance weapons cannot SS however I've seen several people state they can provided they do not fire blast nor template weapons. Apparently this comes into play primarily for the AM though no units come to mind. Is this true can an ordinance weapon fire SS provided it's neither a template nor a blast? Please cite references on this one guys and gals thank you.The AM Chimera - I saw a post over on the Imperator Guides to Astra Militarum (May 2014 Astra Militarum Unit Overview part 2 - and to be fair this is where I first saw the previous question as well) the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. I could see an argument being made for two perhaps if the Chimera in question was not a dedicated transport. How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? Again please cite references guys and gals..That's it for now thank you for your time and patience everybody. Also I will be copy pasting this post on a number of other websites to get as many outlooks as possible on the issues. If you'd like a complete list for yourself to follow along please feel free to send me a private message where I will happily provide you with a complete list http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c944477abc92c1c101da485e07ff06d8.gif Have a great night everybody and good hunting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The AM Chimera - I saw a post over on the Imperator Guides to Astra Militarum (May 2014 Astra Militarum Unit Overview part 2 - and to be fair this is where I first saw the previous question as well) the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. I could see an argument being made for two perhaps if the Chimera in question was not a dedicated transport. How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? Again please cite references guys and gals.. The Chimera can shoot its Turret Weapon, Hull Weapon, and two embarked models can fire out of the top hatch or shoot with the Lasgun Arrays. There's four shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4008376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Well...generally, USRs like POTMS are intended to modify general rules like snap shots. In this case, there's a very specific reason that they specified that USRs only modify snap shots if the USR explicitly states that it does so. It's actually directly related to POTMS...they didn't intend for land raiders to be able to shoot one of their twinlinked lascannons at a flier at twinlinked BS4. That would obviously violate the spirit of POTMS, which is intended to allow you to shoot an extra weapon on the move and shoot a weapon while shaken/stunned. According to the rules ordinance weapons cannot SS Hmm. Snap-shotting ordnance... (by the way, there's no 'i' in ordnance...ordinance is a valid word, but it's not the right one here!) The rules are a complete train-wreck. Page 41 BRB unambiguously states "ordnance weapons cannot fire snap shots." Clear enough, right? Well...then it gets stupid. Flip to page 73. There's a paragraph with its own header entitled "Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons." Nothing too exciting there, except the last sentence: "A vehicle that moved at cruising speed can still snap shoot ordnance, but of course, cannot fire any ordnance that cannot be fired as snap shots." ?!? Didn't they just get done saying that ordnance weapons can't snap-shoot? It's probable that they weren't thinking of the very very few non-blast ordnance weapons when they wrote that, and "ordnance" and "blast" were synonymous in their minds at that moment...so now we're caught between one rule stating that that ordnance cannot snap-shoot, and another one that implies that some ordnance weapons can while others cannot. The most reasonable conclusion is that non-blast ordnance weapons can in fact snap-shoot. Of course, the only example I can think of is hellstrike missiles...which, being one-shot weapons, are not at all suitable for taking a 1/6 gamble!!! the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. The rules for the AM Chimera explicitly state that the passengers, in addition to firing from the hatch, may fire the two banks of built-in lasguns on the flanks, and further states that they may fire their fire-point weapons and each bank of lasguns at a separate target. Technically, the chimera is NOT allowed to split fire, the turret and hull mounted heavy weapons are required to shoot at the same target...but the rules for the chimera allow the passengers to split their fire...not really a big deal, I spam chimeras all day long and twice on Sunday. I can remember shooting those lasguns 3-4 times, ever....killing one enemy model, lifetime. It's more of a fluff-happy rule than a rule that makes the chimera more effective in combat! The rule is called "lasgun arrays" and is found on page 40 of C:AM. Interestingly, the rule states that the passengers fire the lasgun arrays at the chimera's BS (a bummer if they're vets) The AM Chimera - I saw a post over on the Imperator Guides to Astra Militarum (May 2014 Astra Militarum Unit Overview part 2 - and to be fair this is where I first saw the previous question as well) the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. I could see an argument being made for two perhaps if the Chimera in question was not a dedicated transport. How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? Again please cite references guys and gals.. The Chimera can shoot its Turret Weapon, Hull Weapon, and two embarked models can fire out of the top hatch or while six other embarked models in two sets of three shoot with each of the Lasgun Arrays at separate targets. There's four shots separate targets engaged from one chimera. Fixed that for you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4008416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 march nails it from the Guard point of view, this belongs in the Rules section so I am moving the topic. I don't have my rulebook so someone else will have to confirm but last time I checked it was one additional weapon over the normal limit so PotMS on a stationary vehicle only lets you target a different unit with a single weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4008740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 As far as PotMS and Snap-shots goes, it's an unresolved issue that GW have yet to fix via an FAQ. The latest previous discussion can be found here. - It's also linked in the OR index thread. Basically, it's a subject that isn't going to have a consensus or clear answer, so repeated discussion is rather pointless. The best solution that exists right now is to come to an agreement with whoever your opponent is as to how PotMS interacts with Snap-shots. If that means a dice off, then so be it. Note that each weapon can only be fired once per shooting phase. PotMS allows you to fire one more weapon than normal, not one weapon more than once. As far as the Ordnance weapon question is concerned, it was recently discussed in the Blood Angels section here. There are good references and a good analysis there, so rather than repeat it, I advise giving that thread a read. Mehman and March10k have, between them, covered the Chimera pretty well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeliske Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Thanks for the input guys and thanks march for the spelling correction I shall endeavor to fix this in the future I had no idea! On all the forums I've found though nobody seems to answer for me the last big question remaining. According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen). At this point I believe that PotMS does not in fact overwrite HtH for the same reason I said above specific overwrites generic. Also I thought I aught to have pointed out my chosen army is the Astra Militarum and as such all my Leman Russ tanks have the Heavy Special rule. Which states that they can't cruise nor move anything over combat speed but always count as having not moved for the purposes of firing and effects on BS. Which is why I'm asking the previous question in the first place. All my weapons (providing I'm not SS) will be able to fire at full BS most of the time and as such I'm trying to figure out if PotMS is even worth taking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Each weapon fires once. Each weapon always fires once. The number of shots is never effected by PotMS. It just effects the BS of some shots and the ability to choose a separate target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeliske Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 I can see the use of shooting a separate target (except my tanks can already do that via orders from my tank commander or commanders in general). As my tanks all have the "Heavy" rule they fire at full BS regardless (providing they do not have the ordinance rule as well) which means PotMS is almost useless. I can't see this being the case so I'm trying to figure out how it actually works. I am aware each weapon fires once I did say that in my post above along with my question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 [snip] which means PotMS is almost useless. I can't see this being the case [snip] Oh to be new to Games Workshop rules again ... GW is notorious for odd rules. It's the reason every 40K board you go to has a forum just like this one trying to make some sense out of the madness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeliske Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Heh just have a memory like me :P I've been playing 15 years but I take a break every winter (who wants to go anywhere in winter!) and I've a memory like a sieve so I have to relearn them every spring to get ready for gaming in summer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolemy Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? I've worked it out gang! http://i.imgur.com/28WtQgy.jpg 28 targets with one tank! Turret Heavy Flamer, hull Heavy Flamer, 2 Lasgun arrays, 1 unit of veterans with 2 flamers. Lol ^.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306135-a-few-questions-on-rules/#findComment-4009709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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