Can you Terminate too much?

[Prot]

One thing that drew me to Grey Knights was the Terminator they use. Specifically the psychic phase with the NSF plus the ability to have AP3 available on hand, at initiative.

 

I started thinking.... since we're talking troops here, do you think a nearly entire Grey Knight Termie force is feasible? I mean what if you left the NDK's at home, and just went full out Termies, Libbies, and maybe Draigo? 

 

Has anyone done this? Or am I getting too Termie crazy here? 

 

I guess the pluses would be:

 

+ Troop Saturation

+ Access to 2+/5+

+ Potential for Paladins at the helm?

+ No need for Purgator squads or NDK's with a potential of several Psycannons shooting at full salvo

 

 

Negatives might be:

 

- Facing an opponent loaded in AP2 weaponry might make this feel like a tremendous waste of points.

- Bad luck = no Gate of Infinity = no mobolity

- Even smaller numbers

 

Do you think a pure Terminator force is even plausible? Or would have to be supplemented with something?

 

[jeffersonian000]

The answer to the thread's title question is No, you definitely cannot Terminate too much. I can still run a 100% TDA army no DreadKnights, and have ball DS'ing, storming objectives, getting it stuck in, and Gating about to my heart's content. No Pallies, they aren't worth it.

 

SJ

[Zembar]

Terminate too much? No, you can't ever terminate enough, that's the curse of the Grey Knights!

[Prot]

The answer to the thread's title question is No, you definitely cannot Terminate too much. I can still run a 100% TDA army no DreadKnights, and have ball DS'ing, storming objectives, getting it stuck in, and Gating about to my heart's content. No Pallies, they aren't worth it.

 

SJ

 

I like that as a concept. Maybe I'll try something like this... probably lead by Draigo and two libbies to attempt to get multi-Gate running or something like Maelstrom will be really difficult, or even fast armies I imagine... Eldar/DE/etc.

[Darkmagi]

Well let's see 10 termies with 2 psycannons and 2 hammers comes to 380. you can get 3 squads and 2 ml3 libby for 1410 points... I'd just be worried about lack of staying power

[Zembar]

If I was going terminator crazy I'd do:

 

CAD:

HQ

2xLibrarian ML3 w/storm bolter

 

Troop:

5x5-man terminator squads, 1xhammer, 1xpsycannon each

 

LoW:

Draigo

 

1500 points, on the dot.

 

They might be footslogging, but they sure are a lot of pretty tough guys with ObSec that an opponent has to deal with somehow.

[Prot]

I like that... I'm tempted to try it. lol

[jeffersonian000]

If I was going terminator crazy I'd do:

 

CAD:

HQ

2xLibrarian ML3 w/storm bolter

 

Troop:

5x5-man terminator squads, 1xhammer, 1xpsycannon each

 

LoW:

Draigo

 

1500 points, on the dot.

 

They might be footslogging, but they sure are a lot of pretty tough guys with ObSec that an opponent has to deal with somehow.

That's my old Ghostwing! /tears

 

SJ

[SyNidus]

If I was going terminator crazy I'd do:

CAD:

HQ

2xLibrarian ML3 w/storm bolter

Troop:

5x5-man terminator squads, 1xhammer, 1xpsycannon each

LoW:

Draigo

1500 points, on the dot.

They might be footslogging, but they sure are a lot of pretty tough guys with ObSec that an opponent has to deal with somehow.

I am very tempted to try that out actually. 28 psychically charged terminators...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think it's a skew list that runs into serious trouble the moment someone brings AP2. It's like a weaker Deathwing with more bodies but less survivability. 

 

I think you still need DK's even in a mostly TDA list, if only because they're fast enough to catch things that can just run away from Termies (who are slow and rely on Turn 1 Deepstrike to get into charge range quickly). They also carry substantially more firepower, and can handle things Terminators can't (with 'Sanctuary' DK's stand a reasonable chance nowadays against other MC's, not to mention T6 and only 1 less wound than a comparable Terminator combat squad). 

 

For best results (even without DK's), I'd be taking a Comms Array as well in the list. 30 Terminators showing up Turn 1 with Run+Shoot is a lot scarier than only 10 or 20. 

[Zembar]

I think it's a skew list that runs into serious trouble the moment someone brings AP2. It's like a weaker Deathwing with more bodies but less survivability. 

 

I think you still need DK's even in a mostly TDA list, if only because they're fast enough to catch things that can just run away from Termies (who are slow and rely on Turn 1 Deepstrike to get into charge range quickly). They also carry substantially more firepower, and can handle things Terminators can't (with 'Sanctuary' DK's stand a reasonable chance nowadays against other MC's, not to mention T6 and only 1 less wound than a comparable Terminator combat squad). 

 

For best results (even without DK's), I'd be taking a Comms Array as well in the list. 30 Terminators showing up Turn 1 with Run+Shoot is a lot scarier than only 10 or 20. 

 

Of course it's a skew list! That's why I said it was terminator crazy.

 

And I was doing TDA only, not mostly, which was in the spirit of the thread. And the Comms array won't make as much sense in a CAD, since there's no run and shoot and no turn one deep strike. I thought ObSec would be fun on a 27 terminator list.

 

Your suggestions do make a lot of sense, and would make for a better list, but not in the context of total terminator madness...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And I was doing TDA only, not mostly, which was in the spirit of the thread. And the Comms array won't make as much sense in a CAD, since there's no run and shoot and no turn one deep strike. I thought ObSec would be fun on a 27 terminator list.

 

Why would you ever not take Nemesis Strikeforce? Especially if you're going Terminator heavy. Objective Secured doesn't matter to us, we're a tiny handful of models. If we play the attrition game we lose. Compare;

 

- Scoring objectives if no other Troops are on it as well (else its a tie), also hinges on you being alive to do so

versus

- Turn 1 Deepstrike your entire army, Run+Shoot so you can be more conservative with your Deepstrike initial target, and still be in range to shoot. 

 

Coming in piecemeal is just going to feed your army to the enemy's guns. Also, you still need ground presence, otherwise you auto-lose end of Turn 1. 

[Zembar]

If no other ObSec troops are on it you mean. If ObSec is as pointless as you say, then less and less people will take the CAD as the new codices give them new detachments, and then it will actually become more valuable.

 

How often do you see ObSec necrons nowadays?

[Gaz1858]

Got to agree with Darius with regards to NSF over CAD when it comes to a Terminator Heavy Army. Ob Sec is a powerful ability but IMO only when you have enough Troops to make it an issue for the opponent. Horde armies for example love it as you have to remove all those niggly little pains in the ass as well as all the scary stuff which is trying to beat your face in.

 

For GK in this type of list all it means as your Top Priority Targets (TPTs) for the enemy are still the TPTs, there is no difference to your opponent. The NSF mitigates slightly the outnumbered nature of GK by allowing a potential Alpha Strike against the enemy to even up the odds.

[Zembar]

Personally, I think it would be nice to be able to post a clearly marked concept list in this forum in an appropriate thread, without people stating the obvious.

 

Yes, the NSF is our best choice 99.99% of the time.

Yes, NDK are our best units.

 

Everyone knows this, so why do people reiterating those facts have to hijack every. Single. Thread.

 

I personally play with 2 NDK, purifiers in allied drop pods etc. It's just fun to think about lots and lots of terminators now and then, as the Emperor intended.

[Dread]

My main way of playing my GK before the dex was all termie, forced on me by the CSM and their hell turkeys when is was broken rules wise. Now I will own one in my CSM. Anyway, even against other SM chapters and xyno armies, they worked just as good as a Deathwing army, may be even a bit better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If no other ObSec troops are on it you mean. If ObSec is as pointless as you say, then less and less people will take the CAD as the new codices give them new detachments, and then it will actually become more valuable. 

 

How often do you see ObSec necrons nowadays? 

 

No it won't. I'd never trade the advantages of NSF for CAD. It's not even a contest. Turn 1 your entire army lands in gun range and starts killing stuff. Versus, feeding them piecemeal from Reserves. One of those builds is a threat, the other is far easier to kill off. Objective Secured doesn't matter if you're dead, or if you've killed all the enemy Troops in the vicinity. 

Personally, I think it would be nice to be able to post a clearly marked concept list in this forum in an appropriate thread, without people stating the obvious.

 

Yes, the NSF is our best choice 99.99% of the time.

Yes, NDK are our best units.

 

Everyone knows this, so why do people reiterating those facts have to hijack every. Single. Thread.

 

I personally play with 2 NDK, purifiers in allied drop pods etc. It's just fun to think about lots and lots of terminators now and then, as the Emperor intended.

 

Because it's the truth, and burying your head in the sand isn't a viable alternative. Play another army if you don't like it. 

 

Purifiers in pods is exactly what I advocate (well that or Ravens, which dodges the need for a Marine ally). Doesn't change the fact if you're running all TDA, NSF is the way to go. 

My main way of playing my GK before the dex was all termie, forced on me by the CSM and their hell turkeys when is was broken rules wise. Now I will own one in my CSM. Anyway, even against other SM chapters and xyno armies, they worked just as good as a Deathwing army, may be even a bit better.

 

If only Deathwing weren't so overpriced. It's sad how much we outclass them in every measurable way. 'Rites of Teleportation' > 'Deathwing Assault'. Draigo/Grand Master > Belial. Psycannons and the option of swords over hammers > forced to take thunderhammer+storm shield. Storm shields is the only thing they have over us, and it's rapidly becoming meaningless (xenos get oodles of AP2 and the ability to just pile wounds onto you). DA also has nothing that compares to Interceptors or DK's. Ravenwing don't hold a candle to either of those two. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Everyone knows this, so why do people reiterating those facts have to hijack every. Single. Thread.

 

Why does everyone post "is my list ok" when it's Libby, GKT and NDK?

[Zembar]

 

Everyone knows this, so why do people reiterating those facts have to hijack every. Single. Thread.

 

Why does everyone post "is my list ok" when it's Libby, GKT and NDK?

 

 

Insecurity.

[Zhukov]

Frankly, I'm surprised at the almost collective opinion that NSF is better than a CAD and that the Librarian is by far the best HQ. I'll go against the grain then with a Brother Captain and CAD.

[Gentlemanloser]

I posted a while ago the optimal detachments to use to get the most DNKs with the lease HQ/Troop tax.

 

Depending on points ranges CADs feature there.

 

Why a Brother Captain over a Libby? 

[Zhukov]

I posted a while ago the optimal detachments to use to get the most DNKs with the lease HQ/Troop tax.

 

Depending on points ranges CADs feature there.

It's more complicated than that, I value Objective Secured more than most it seems and I don't value Rites of Teleportation much at all. I rate NSF only as the cheapest way of getting 2 Dreadknights.

 

Why a Brother Captain over a Libby?

I heavily dislike 2 wound psykers, they are prone to being a liability apart from generating warp charge for other units when you roll Perrils of the Warp early on in the game (it happens). Cuirass of Sacrifice can somewhat elevate this though.

 

I prefer the increased stats of the BC combined with the fact that you he's carrying around a psycannon. I don't mind paying 60 points more for that and losing a warp charge in the process. Overall more reliable in my opinion, but that can be attributed to playstyle, I only see the Librarian as the superior choice if you're playing with multiple Characters as then the price difference is way more relevant. (Draigo or Tiggy or taking both a CAD and NSF etc.)

[Prot]

Oh I value ObSec quite a bit myself, it's just that I make that determination based on how many troops I want to run. In the event I have 2 troops, I'll go ObSec.

 

As far as HQ, I'm definitely Pro-Libby over Brother Captain. I think the BC is over costed, and the Libby at WC3 + Cuirass of Sacrifice is really good.

[jeffersonian000]

CAD has more than two Troop slots, allowing you to take six min squads of GKT (and three NDK). An NSF at most allows four combat squads of GKT. Yes, you can always run more than one detachment, unless the tournament restricts you to one, or to a CAD+AD.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Frankly, I'm surprised at the almost collective opinion that NSF is better than a CAD and that the Librarian is by far the best HQ. I'll go against the grain then with a Brother Captain and CAD.

 

 

Cost and utility are hard to beat in either of those cases. CAD doesn't really offer us anything we want. 

It's more complicated than that, I value Objective Secured more than most it seems and I don't value Rites of Teleportation much at all. I rate NSF only as the cheapest way of getting 2 Dreadknights.

 

Well, if you're going Terminator heavy, 'Rites' is pretty amazing. And actually, if you're into DK spam, CAD is better. You get three Heavy slots. 

I heavily dislike 2 wound psykers, they are prone to being a liability apart from generating warp charge for other units when you roll Perrils of the Warp early on in the game (it happens). Cuirass of Sacrifice can somewhat elevate this though.

 

I prefer the increased stats of the BC combined with the fact that you he's carrying around a psycannon. I don't mind paying 60 points more for that and losing a warp charge in the process. Overall more reliable in my opinion, but that can be attributed to playstyle, I only see the Librarian as the superior choice if you're playing with multiple Characters as then the price difference is way more relevant. (Draigo or Tiggy or taking both a CAD and NSF etc.)

 

Most other armies get by with 2-wound psykers. As you say, 'Cuirass' can mitigate it somewhat anyway. Brother-Captain is a much better combat hero though, as is the Grand Master. I do find Librarians underwhelming in melee. 

CAD has more than two Troop slots, allowing you to take six min squads of GKT (and three NDK). An NSF at most allows four combat squads of GKT. Yes, you can always run more than one detachment, unless the tournament restricts you to one, or to a CAD+AD.

 

If a tournament doesn't allow you to use Nemesis Strikeforce, they're not worth participating in. It's in our codex. 

 

Regarding the extra Troops slots, it's not going to matter if you just bring another NSF detachment. At that point you have 8 slots, which is more than you'll ever use. I'd be surprised if you use all 3 Troops slots in a NSF, outside of 2k+.